Collusion and Obstruction: Two Different Kinds of Crime

 

If the President had been found guilty of Russian collusion — that is, of participating in a criminal conspiracy with the Russians to undermine our election — then it would have indicated that he was a particular kind of villain. It takes a particular kind of villain to knowingly work with our enemies to subvert the democratic process. That represents a treasonous betrayal of our country.

On the other hand, being oafish and ignorant of the nuances of executive authority in the context of a legal investigation, while it may arguably appear to meet the legal definition for a charge of obstruction of justice, need not suggest that the President is a villain. Rather, it may simply indicate that he is an amateur on matters of law and politics, and that he is accustomed to speaking his mind without considering the unique legal implications of doing so while being the head of federal law enforcement.

I never thought the collusion charges made much sense, and Mueller’s finding that no collusion occurred surprises me not at all.

As to obstruction, I find it much more plausible that the President expressed his frustration at what he rightly considered a relentless and unjustified witch hunt that was undermining his administration, and that he explored various avenues to put an end to it — but that, finally, he both allowed the investigation to continue and cooperated with it. We know that he resisted the temptation to invoke executive privilege, even when he might plausibly have done so.

I understand his frustration. I appreciate his transparency. I particularly appreciate the people who counseled him to let the investigation run its course.

I think it’s time his critics stepped back and considered the possibility that they’re trying to trap a normal person in a web of legal technicalities in an effort to undo, by hook or by crook, the outcome of a legitimate election that happens to have led to an outcome they find offensive.

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  1. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is a nightmare client with zero verbal discipline. He would never limit himself to “yes” or “no”. He would be easily goaded. He would argue and assume he was smarter than his adversary.

    After all this time, and after all the critiquing of President Trump’s  supposed shortcomings , and after all of his winning, perhaps it’s time to start giving him some credit for knowing what he is doing when it comes to communication, persuasion, and making his case.

    • #31
  2. Jason Obermeyer Member
    Jason Obermeyer
    @JasonObermeyer

    Steve C. (View Comment):
    He has a reputation, a legacy, of prudent leadership in high profile jobs.

    He has that reputation; as for a legacy (i.e. an evidenced track record of solid decision making), people keep refusing to provide evidence of that. 

    • #32
  3. Jason Obermeyer Member
    Jason Obermeyer
    @JasonObermeyer

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    As well known lefty squish John Yoo put it on a recent podcast

    I’m not sure if you’ve taken in everything John Yoo has said on the matter:

    • I don’t think he believes that a President be criminally charged (based on constitutional issues rather than some DOJ policy) with obstruction based on the actions discussed in the Mueller Report.   He hints at that later in the podcast but I think he has stated that directly in one of the Law Talk podcasts.  I was actually surprised at the discussion you cite because it seemed contrary to what I though was his position, but I think in complete context his argument was more in the nature of, “assuming you could charge a President with obstruction for these acts, you would have to interview him to establish intent.” That said, I don’t want to put words in Mr. Yoo’s mouth.
    • As somewhat of a side note, I don’t believe Mr. Yoo’s statement to be correct in any event.  Intent can usually be inferred from the circumstances with needing the defendant to testify.  If this wasn’t so, any defense attorney could defeat the charge simply by not allowing his client to be interviewed.
    • You also must have missed were he described the independent/special counsel system as a 40 year failed experiment in allowing Congress to avoid doing its job in impeaching bad leaders.
    • #33
  4. Jason Obermeyer Member
    Jason Obermeyer
    @JasonObermeyer

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    If this was more personal or more out of bounds than other comments I sincerely apologize. I think Mitt Romney is a good man. I think Bob Mueller is a good man. I think attacks on these men on behalf of Trump, who I consider a true villain, are unwarranted. 

    Ok, so how about on behalf of the Constitution? Any system where a President can be investigated by his own subordinates and conceivably criminally charged for firing one of them makes a mockery of the original constitutional settlement. We have impeachment.  If Congress doesn’t have the will to use it when necessary, then damn them; there is no other way provided. Whether or not Trump is the devil, I suspect that you, Mitt Romney, and Bob Mueller would metaphorically tear down all the laws in England to get at him. 

    • #34
  5. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Just curious. Do you think that hyperbolic characterizations such as the above (pathological liar) make your points more persuasive? That aside, I’d certainly be interested in a direct quote from the Woodward book.

    In one revelatory anecdote, Woodward describes a scene in the White House residence. Trump’s lawyer, convinced the President would perjure himself, put Trump through a test — a practice interview for the one he might have with Mueller. Trump failed, according to Dowd, but the President still insisted he should testify.Cillizza: Bob Woodward's peek behind the Trump curtain is 100% as terrifying as we feared Woodward writes that Dowd saw the “full nightmare” of a potential Mueller interview, and felt Trump acted like an “aggrieved Shakespearean king.”But Trump seemed surprised at Dowd’s reaction, Woodward writes. “You think I was struggling?” Trump asked.Then, in an even more remarkable move, Dowd and Trump’s current personal attorney Jay Sekulow went to Mueller’s office and re-enacted the mock interview. Their goal: to argue that Trump couldn’t possibly testify because he was incapable of telling the truth.”He just made something up. That’s his nature,” Dowd said to Mueller.The passage is an unprecedented glimpse behind the scenes of Mueller’s secretive operation — for the first time, Mueller’s conversations with Trump’s lawyers are captured.”I need the president’s testimony,” Mueller said. “What was his intent on Comey? … I want to see if there was corrupt intent.”Despite Dowd’s efforts, Trump continued to insist he could testify. “I think the President of the United States cannot be seen taking the fifth,” Trump said.Dowd’s argument was stark: “There’s no way you can get through these. … Don’t testify. It’s either that or an orange jump suit.”What he couldn’t say to Trump, according to Woodward, was what Dowd believed to be true: “You’re a f***ing liar.”

    Thanks for engaging on this. It’s good info. However, I see more Woodward than direct quotes. For example: “Their goal: to argue that Trump couldn’t possibly testify because he was incapable of telling the truth.” Sorry Bob, who said that? Oh wait, it was you.

    Also, and rather important. I think that I’d want more before claiming POTUS is a “pathological liar.”

    Good point – Sorry Bob, who said that? Oh wait, it was you.- and Mic Drop too!

     

    • #35
  6. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Jason Obermeyer (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    SNIP So I think attacks on these men on behalf of Trump, who I consider a true villain, are unwarranted.

    Ok, so how about on behalf of the Constitution? Any system where a President can be investigated by his own subordinates and conceivably criminally charged for firing one of them makes a mockery of the original constitutional settlement. We have impeachment. If Congress doesn’t have the will to use it when necessary, then damn them; there is no other way provided. Whether or not Trump is the devil, I suspect that you, Mitt Romney, and Bob Mueller would metaphorically tear down all the laws in England to get at him.

    It is also true that in order for a legal charge of obstruction to come about against any individual, that individual or some perceived accomplice must be charged with a crime. The Mueller witch hunt team spent two and a half years attempting to entrap various members of Trump’s campaign team. In some cases, it was the Dems themselves that handled various entrapments or entanglements.

    For instance, Obama or one of his staff arranged one of Jeff Sessions’ meeting with Russians. (“It would be good for you to meet with Russian officials you might need to deal with, Jeffie Boy, prior to being sworn in as Attorney General… Why don’t you let us  set up the meeting for you?”)

    Yes the Mueller team did manage to indict, prosecute and convict some of Trump’s people. But the charges those folks were convicted of did not have anything to do with the Russian collusion angle. And Trump himself was never charged with anything!

    I cringed reading that Woodward claimed that Trump’s own attorney Sekulow called Trump a pathological liar. Especially given that Woodward bends the truth whenever it serves the needs of his masters. Would Sekulow think it a good thing for Trump to be interviewed? No, and he has stated that much on Fox TV.

    The Woodward remarks here remind me of Kitty Kelly’s book on Jacqueline Kennedy.  Kelly made the newly widowed Jacqueline out to be a vapid glamor puss intrigued and excited  over the happy  fact that she got to design and carry out her husband’s public wake and funeral arrangements.

    The Democrats interrogating any and everyone is a viscious affair. Shelia Jackson Lee made a particularly witch-ee kind of performance when she went after Diamond of Diamond and Silk. Note how she tries to trip the woman up, inserting a different date into her questions just as Diamond is about  to reply, while pretending that Hardaway has lied when she had not:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIclOxotfc

    Trump most likely would not have kept it together as well as Hardaway did. He may well have come across as a “pathological liar” without being one – just as Lee insists that Hardaway has lied.

    • #36
  7. Chris Campion Coolidge
    Chris Campion
    @ChrisCampion

    After listening to Yoo on one of the pods, I think the characterization of what he said is incorrect.

    In order to charge, you’d have to show intent, which would likely mean an interview.  A state of mind at the time the obstruction happened, or enough testimony or evidence around it.  That’s almost impossible to prove, and putting him on the stand or interviewing him would likely be a disaster.

    But they had no evidence of obstruction, which is why the 2nd half of the report basically tries to paint Trump as unstable, so that 2-year effort that failed to find obstruction or collusion could be used for impeachment.

    Which is really the only vehicle for this, if you want to remove someone who’s unfit.  Swearing and not knowing the laws doesn’t mean one is unfit, if that were true every president for the last half-century would be deemed unfit and subject to impeachment.

    What it really shows is how lazy Congress is, where they’d much rather make political hay, and garner votes, through an investigation.  The hard work required for impeachment, with its attendant political risk, is too much for these gallant truth-warriors to bear, so they spend tens of millions of your dollars, distract the country for 2 years, and bupkis.

    Your American leadership, America!  Sit back and enjoy them, in their full spectacle.

    • #37
  8. Joshua Bissey Inactive
    Joshua Bissey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Henry Racette: I think it’s time his critics stepped back and considered the possibility that they’re trying to trap a normal person in a web of legal technicalities in an effort to undo, by hook or by crook, the outcome of a legitimate election that happens to have led to an outcome they find offensive.

    This will not happen.

    His critics are much too invested in the Trump as villain model to see him as a normal person. He has come to embody everything they’ve always suspected, or wished to believe, about mouth-breathing, cross-burning far-right Republicans. Ask Jimmy Fallon if “normalizing” Donald Trump is acceptable to Trump’s critics.

    • #38
  9. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    Henry Racette: I think it’s time his critics stepped back and considered the possibility that they’re trying to trap a normal person in a web of legal technicalities in an effort to undo, by hook or by crook, the outcome of a legitimate election that happens to have led to an outcome they find offensive.

    This will not happen.

    His critics are much too invested in the Trump as villain model to see him as a normal person. He has come to embody everything they’ve always suspected, or wished to believe, about mouth-breathing, cross-burning far-right Republicans. Ask Jimmy Fallon if “normalizing” Donald Trump is acceptable to Trump’s critics.

    My comment was, as they say, aspirational.

    • #39
  10. Joshua Bissey Inactive
    Joshua Bissey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    Henry Racette: I think it’s time his critics stepped back and considered the possibility that they’re trying to trap a normal person in a web of legal technicalities in an effort to undo, by hook or by crook, the outcome of a legitimate election that happens to have led to an outcome they find offensive.

    This will not happen.

    His critics are much too invested in the Trump as villain model to see him as a normal person. He has come to embody everything they’ve always suspected, or wished to believe, about mouth-breathing, cross-burning far-right Republicans. Ask Jimmy Fallon if “normalizing” Donald Trump is acceptable to Trump’s critics.

    My comment was, as they say, aspirational.

    I know you’re not that naive.

    • #40
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