Driver’s Education, US Navy Edition

 

There was very little mainstream media coverage but the United States Navy proved again this week that no matter the size of the ocean, they will take a ship and hit something with it. This time, it was another one of our ships.

On Tuesday the USS Leyte Gulf (CG-55), a guided-missle cruiser and the USNS Robert E. Peary (T-AKE-5), a supply ship, collided during a training exercise off the coast of Florida. No one was injured. The Peary came away with an 8-inch gash above its waterline. The two ships were practicing an “underway replenishment” in which supplies are passed from ship to ship via rigging traveling together at speed.

The Leyte Gulf is currently assigned to carrier group of the USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72).

Hat tip to the US Naval Institute News.

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  1. Functionary Coolidge
    Functionary
    @Functionary

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    One thing I do know is that cars don’t move when parked. Ships and sea, even anchored, do, and they get blown and heaved around, and at different speeds over the water. You have to maintain steerage way to keep control of where your ship is.

     

    • #31
  2. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy secretly: I dunno if this hypothesis can be applied to the US Navy. Maybe US sailors get too accustomed to letting computers do most of the work?

    I know a couple of years ago the USNA stopped teaching celestial navigation because it was thought to be antiquated in the computer age. When China started to develop anti satellite space launch capabilities they totally rethought that.

    Actually you have that backwards.  A few years ago the USNA decided to resume teaching celestial navigation.  They stopped about a decade or so ago.

    When I was in NROTC at Notre Dame, navigation was considered one of the toughest courses at the entire university.  I’m not sure how true that was, but many people believed it.

    • #32
  3. EJHill Staff
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Skyler : Actually you have that backwards. A few years ago the USNA decided to resume teaching celestial navigation. They stopped about a decade or so ago.

    That’s what I said. They stopped and then rethought it. And they started up again.

    • #33
  4. Functionary Coolidge
    Functionary
    @Functionary

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    One thing I do know is that cars don’t move when parked. Ships and sea, even anchored, do, and they get blown and heaved around, and at different speeds over the water. You have to maintain steerage way to keep control of where your ship is.

    Flicker is exactly right.  When done right (which USN does and has done for decades, hundreds of thousands of times) underway replenishment is far and away the safest and most efficient way to refuel.  When underway making way, each ship is best able to control its position.  When motionless, or at anchor, ships are moved by the forces of wind and tide; and wind and tide have greatly different effects on ships of different sizes and types.  When moving through the water, each ship can control its heading and position with MUCH greater precision.  Moreover, there is great utility in being able to replenish anywhere the ships can move (I’m guessing 99% of the ocean surface), not just where they can safely anchor (I’m guessing less than 10% of the world’s ocean surface).  Additionally, moving in the direction of desired movement for the hour, or so, required for most refueling at sea (RAS) evolutions can be a significant operational consideration.

     

    • #34
  5. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    One thing I do know is that cars don’t move when parked. Ships and sea, even anchored, do, and they get blown and heaved around, and at different speeds over the water. You have to maintain steerage way to keep control of where your ship is.

    I am astonished that there are not more collisions during underway replenishment, or during aerial refueling, which is performed for both fixed and rotary wing aircraft across the services. 

    • #35
  6. cqness Inactive
    cqness
    @cqness

    I’m curious as to how the collision happened between the two ships’ sterns.  When alongside each other there is a venturi effect between the ships which tends to pull them together and requires the receiving ship to steer slightly away from the ordered course most of the time to keep the distance between the ships constant.   I don’t think this would explain the sterns hitting in itself but might have been a contributing cause. 

    When UNREP is completed and all connections broken between the ships, the receiving ship increases speed and gradually steers a course more and more away from the base UNREP course that the replenishment ship maintains during the whole evolution.  If the officer with the conn (verbal control over steering and engine orders to the helmsman and lee helmsman) on the receiving ship ordered too big a course change too early it would cause the stern of the receiving ship to swing in toward the replenishment ship and could explain the stern to stern hit.  It is also possible the helmsman made a mistake in steering independent of the orders from the officer with the conn.

    • #36
  7. Rightfromthestart Coolidge
    Rightfromthestart
    @Rightfromthestart

    I served on an ammunition ship 52 years ago, considering how long the Navy has been doing ‘ unreps ‘ and how complicated an operation it is* , I’m surprised there hasn’t been more accidents of this type. I’m sure this is an accident and not caused by the negligence evident in the other collisions we’ve heard of recently. It is the job of service ships to operate in close quarters with other ships.

    * Two (sometimes three) large ships tethered closely together maintaining the exact  same course and speed for several hours.

     

     

    • #37
  8. Al French, sad sack Moderator
    Al French, sad sack
    @AlFrench

    The Peary is a dry stores (K) and ammunition (E) ship, not an “oiler”, so they weren’t transferring fuel. However, Unreps are performed in the same manner despite the commodity.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Robert_E._Peary_(T-AKE-5)

    Here is a photo of similar ships from Wikipedia.

    When I was on a destroyer on the “gun line” during the Vietnam war, we unrepped about every three days for food, ammunition, fuel (beans, bullets and black oil) and/or parts. Occasionally personnel transfers.

    One of the strengths of the US Navy is that no other Navy in the world has mastered the unrep like we have.

     

    • #38
  9. Al French, sad sack Moderator
    Al French, sad sack
    @AlFrench

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    I served on an ammunition ship 52 years ago, considering how long the Navy has been doing ‘ unreps ‘ and how complicated an operation it is* , I’m surprised there hasn’t been more accidents of this type. I’m sure this is an accident and not caused by the negligence evident in the other collisions we’ve heard of recently. It is the job of service ships to operate in close quarters with other ships.

    * Two (sometimes three) large ships tethered closely together maintaining the exact same course and speed for several hours.

    Theoretically four. Aircraft carriers of the time ( I don’t know about now) were also equipped to refuel smaller ships. So you could have a destroyer taking fuel from a carrier which was also taking ammunition from an AE which was also giving ammo to another combatant on the other side. I never saw it done. But unrep on two sides was not unusual.

    @rightfromthestart, which AE were you on?

    • #39
  10. Mister Dog Coolidge
    Mister Dog
    @MisterDog

    I’ve conned a ship alongside during UNREP and I’ve also been a master helmsman executing the conn’s orders. It ain’t easy. A half degree course change or a couple of rpm speed change can make a big difference. In this case the ships were making  a simultaneous turn, which is even trickier. I’m with those pointing out that the real surprise is that the Navy does does so many replenishments without collisions. I wouldn’t sweat this incident. While unfortunate, it is not in the same category as the 2017 collisions.

    • #40
  11. Rightfromthestart Coolidge
    Rightfromthestart
    @Rightfromthestart

    Al French, sad sack (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    I served on an ammunition ship 52 years ago, considering how long the Navy has been doing ‘ unreps ‘ and how complicated an operation it is* , I’m surprised there hasn’t been more accidents of this type. I’m sure this is an accident and not caused by the negligence evident in the other collisions we’ve heard of recently. It is the job of service ships to operate in close quarters with other ships.

    * Two (sometimes three) large ships tethered closely together maintaining the exact same course and speed for several hours.

    Theoretically four. Aircraft carriers of the time ( I don’t know about now) were also equipped to refuel smaller ships. So you could have a destroyer taking fuel from a carrier which was also taking ammunition from an AE which was also giving ammo to another combatant on the other side. I never saw it done. But unrep on two sides was not unusual.

    @rightfromthestart, which AE were you on?

    I’ve considered that , I don’t recall ever seeing it. I was on the USS Mauna Kea AE-22, every two years or so the guys from that era hold a reunion at various  locations around the country. We were in San Diego last October. 

     

    • #41
  12. Al French, sad sack Moderator
    Al French, sad sack
    @AlFrench

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Al French, sad sack (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    I served on an ammunition ship 52 years ago, considering how long the Navy has been doing ‘ unreps ‘ and how complicated an operation it is* , I’m surprised there hasn’t been more accidents of this type. I’m sure this is an accident and not caused by the negligence evident in the other collisions we’ve heard of recently. It is the job of service ships to operate in close quarters with other ships.

    * Two (sometimes three) large ships tethered closely together maintaining the exact same course and speed for several hours.

    Theoretically four. Aircraft carriers of the time ( I don’t know about now) were also equipped to refuel smaller ships. So you could have a destroyer taking fuel from a carrier which was also taking ammunition from an AE which was also giving ammo to another combatant on the other side. I never saw it done. But unrep on two sides was not unusual.

    @rightfromthestart, which AE were you on?

    I’ve considered that , I don’t recall ever seeing it. I was on the USS Mauna Kea AE-22, every two years or so the guys from that era hold a reunion at various locations around the country. We were in San Diego last October.

    I was on the Lynde McCormick in 1970 in WestPac. I don’t recall for sure but we probably rearmed from Maura Kea. She was there at that time.

    http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/05/0522.htm

    I do remember unrep with USS Sacramento, AOE1, a much newer ship.

    • #42
  13. EJHill Staff
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Mister Dog: I’m with those pointing out that the real surprise is that the Navy does does so many replenishments without collisions. I wouldn’t sweat this incident. While unfortunate, it is not in the same category as the 2017 collisions.

    Without the other incidents this probably wouldn’t have gotten anyone’s attention. The USNI reporting caused the Navy to issue a statement. They could have served themselves better if it had included the lines, “The Navy does X of these every year and 1 in Y leads to minor collisions such as these.” 

    • #43
  14. Nanda "Chaps" Panjandrum Member
    Nanda "Chaps" Panjandrum
    @

    Learning a lot here; thanks to all!

    • #44
  15. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Barry Jones (View Comment):
     

    To EJ…Unreps are a true test of seamanship. 150 feet sounds like a long way until you are in a 10,000 ton ship traveling at 20+ miles an hour. Momentum is a thing and 10,000 tons has a LOT of momentum, and the sea (wave action, wind, wake, etc) has a vote too, so 150 feet becomes a very short distance. Very.

    Waves and wind are real things as well.

    • #45
  16. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    Oh kayy. One cannot hold a stationary ship in any alignment. One cannot control the orientation of a ship unless it is under power.

    Anchoring in the ocean.

    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned here yet I should emphasize [edit] is the venturi effect. When the medium (air or water) between two surfaces is flowing, the pressure between those surfaces is reduced. Since the pressure elsewhere is not affected, the two surfaces are pushed together. That makes connected refueling (the USN’s preferred means of UNREP) particularly challenging for ship drivers.

    • #46
  17. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Stad (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    The most dangerous activity surface ships can engage in, other than war.

    I’m not a skimmer, but my understanding is most UNREP is for refueling, something our non-nuclear surface ships must do, and do often. Only carriers are nuclear powered now, and it’s a shame . . .

    We’ve only had around ten nuke powered cruisers.  The cost just isn’t justified for small ships.  

    • #47
  18. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    I believe USN protocol requires career destruction of some commanders and senior crew and an official finding that there are no broader training, design or competence issues.  

    • #48
  19. JimGoneWild Coolidge
    JimGoneWild
    @JimGoneWild

    Maybe a Squid confused the translation of leagues, fathoms, to feet.

    • #49
  20. J Ro Member
    J Ro
    @JRo

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    Lots of great info here from some old salts. Just a few thoughts:

    If you want to be a super power, you have to “command the seas.” That means your global navy never runs out of missiles, fuel, Coca-Cola, or condoms, and your warships don’t have to stop somewhere to get that stuff. Russia never could pull it off. China has a long way to go.

    The USN can replenish from its own ships, from NATO ships, Japanese ships, and others, and they do it constantly. No doubt a USN ship is doing it right now. 

    Deployed ships need to be combat ready. This includes not letting fuel and stores drop below certain levels. The Admirals get uneasy when some ship’s fuel gauge drops below X%.

    USS Leyte Gulf runs on four General Electric LM2500 engines, so essentially it’s powered like a 747 or a C-5. It burns tons and tons of fuel, especially if it needs/wants to go fast.

    So, imagine this ship is in San Diego and gets orders to get underway and head for the South China Sea, 6,500 nautical miles away, at best speed. She departs San Diego. Instead of stopping at Pearl Harbor for fuel, a tanker goes out to meet her. A few days later another goes out from Japan.  On arrival she tops off from a ship out of Singapore and is ready for action. Actually she probably has been ready for action during the entire transpacific journey. 

    In case you haven’t thought of it, this costs lots of money.

    As for anchoring, the average depth of the oceans is 2.3 miles. That’s a lot of chain!

    • #50
  21. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    J Ro (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    What’s the point of underway replenishment?

    Is it that a ship in motion can begin evasion maneuvers quicker if enemies interrupt the resupply process? Couldn’t replenishment be accomplished quicker and more safely by anchoring, thereby evening out the risk of interruption?

    Or is the idea that gaining a little travel time is worth the risks and complications?

    Lots of great info here from some old salts. Just a few thoughts:

    If you want to be a super power, you have to “command the seas.” That means your global navy never runs out of missiles, fuel, Coca-Cola, or condoms, and your warships don’t have to stop somewhere to get that stuff. Russia never could pull it off. China has a long way to go.

    The USN can replenish from its own ships, from NATO ships, Japanese ships, and others, and they do it constantly. No doubt a USN ship is doing it right now.

    Deployed ships need to be combat ready. This includes not letting fuel and stores drop below certain levels. The Admirals get uneasy when some ship’s fuel gauge drops below X%.

    USS Leyte Gulf runs on four General Electric LM2500 engines, so essentially it’s powered like a 747 or a C-5. It burns tons and tons of fuel, especially if it needs/wants to go fast.

    So, imagine this ship is in San Diego and gets orders to get underway and head for the South China Sea, 6,500 nautical miles away, at best speed. She departs San Diego. Instead of stopping at Pearl Harbor for fuel, a tanker goes out to meet her. A few days later another goes out from Japan. On arrival she tops off from a ship out of Singapore and is ready for action. Actually she probably has been ready for action during the entire transpacific journey.

    In case you haven’t thought of it, this costs lots of money.

    As for anchoring, the average depth of the oceans is 2.3 miles. That’s a lot of chain!

    And the other part of the nuke cruiser economics is that they still need to replenish food and ammo.  A nuke carrier also needs to do that, so they aren’t without needs.  They also need to refuel jet fuel. What nuke power does is give them a lot more room for jet fuel.

    • #51
  22. Pilgrim Coolidge
    Pilgrim
    @Pilgrim

    Skyler (View Comment):
    …..  So, imagine this ship is in San Diego and gets orders to get underway and head for the South China Sea, 6,500 nautical miles away, at best speed. She departs San Diego. Instead of stopping at Pearl Harbor for fuel, a tanker goes out to meet her. A few days later another goes out from Japan. On arrival she tops off from a ship out of Singapore and is ready for action. Actually she probably has been ready for action during the entire transpacific journey…

    As impressive as this is, think of the huge WWII fleets when the ships coming from Japan or Singapore weren’t coming out out to refuel our ships! 

    My dad served on a Fletcher-class destroyer (USS Bell DD-587) which were notoriously “short-legged.”  The DD’s were suckled by carriers and crusiers every day or so just for bunker to keep up with the task-force they were screening

     

    • #52
  23. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Pilgrim (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    ….. So, imagine this ship is in San Diego and gets orders to get underway and head for the South China Sea, 6,500 nautical miles away, at best speed. She departs San Diego. Instead of stopping at Pearl Harbor for fuel, a tanker goes out to meet her. A few days later another goes out from Japan. On arrival she tops off from a ship out of Singapore and is ready for action. Actually she probably has been ready for action during the entire transpacific journey…

    As impressive as this is, think of the huge WWII fleets when the ships coming from Japan or Singapore weren’t coming out out to refuel our ships!

    My dad served on a Fletcher-class destroyer (USS Bell DD-587) which were notoriously “short-legged.” The DD’s were suckled by carriers and crusiers every day or so just for bunker to keep up with the task-force they were screening

    Error here, none of this was written by me.  

    • #53
  24. Pilgrim Coolidge
    Pilgrim
    @Pilgrim

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Pilgrim (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    ….. So, imagine this ship is in San Diego and gets orders to get underway and head for the South China Sea, 6,500 nautical miles away, at best speed. She departs San Diego. Instead of stopping at Pearl Harbor for fuel, a tanker goes out to meet her. A few days later another goes out from Japan. On arrival she tops off from a ship out of Singapore and is ready for action. Actually she probably has been ready for action during the entire transpacific journey…

    As impressive as this is, think of the huge WWII fleets when the ships coming from Japan or Singapore weren’t coming out out to refuel our ships!

    My dad served on a Fletcher-class destroyer (USS Bell DD-587) which were notoriously “short-legged.” The DD’s were suckled by carriers and crusiers every day or so just for bunker to keep up with the task-force they were screening

    Error here, none of this was written by me.

    Sorry, I tried to quote part of your comment not the entire post and add my own comment, now in boldface.  I should have used the quote function for you entire comment and then edited out the portion I was not responding to.

    • #54
  25. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Pilgrim (View Comment):
    Sorry, I tried to quote part of your comment not the entire post and add my own comment, now in boldface. I should have used the quote function for you entire comment and then edited out the portion I was not responding to.

    And yet none of it was mine!  It gets tricky sometimes, especially on a phone or ipad, when it is impossible.

    • #55
  26. Nanda "Chaps" Panjandrum Member
    Nanda "Chaps" Panjandrum
    @

    Thanks, @pilgrim and @skyler for ignoring logistical snags in order to continue the conversation!  I appreciate it… 

    • #56
  27. Pilgrim Coolidge
    Pilgrim
    @Pilgrim

    Nanda "Chaps" Panjan… (View Comment):

    Thanks, @pilgrim and @skyler for ignoring logistical snags in order to continue the conversation! I appreciate it…

    Looks like @jro ‘s comment was attributed to @skyler.  Whatever, it was interesting

    • #57
  28. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy secretly: I dunno if this hypothesis can be applied to the US Navy. Maybe US sailors get too accustomed to letting computers do most of the work?

    I know a couple of years ago the USNA stopped teaching celestial navigation because it was thought to be antiquated in the computer age. When China started to develop anti satellite space launch capabilities they totally rethought that.

    Same with the Army and land navigation by compass, instead of GPS. From a year ago:

    Right now, infantry recruits only get one day of training on land navigation, but the extra time will allow the Army to test recruits individually on their ability to use a map and compass at day and night, Voorhies said.

    This followed a 2017 assessment of vulnerabilities:

    Already, the Army has brought back training to keep soldiers current on how to read paper maps, and the Navy is teaching sailors how to navigate by the stars with the help of sextants, first used in the 18th century.

    Army operations centers have map boards that show where troops are on the ground, so if a “Blue Force tracker” that watches soldiers with GPS is disrupted, “we still know where all of our units are,” Zellmann said.

    The old-school, analog technologies are also being augmented by new science designed to replicate satellites, only from Earth.

    The military’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, better known as DARPA, which innovates and develops new technologies for the Pentagon, has stated it wants a new generation of precise navigation and timing tools that can work without GPS.

    One such system uses “pseudolites”—ground-based devices that beam GPS-like signals and are already being used in the commercial sector.
    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-12-military-war-gps.html#jCp

    The thing about the last item you mentioned as being a new aide for navigation: “pseudolites”—ground-based devices that beam GPS-like signals and are already being used in the commercial sector, is that man and woman  made devices can usually be hacked, whereas so far no one has hacked the actual stars in the sky.

     

    • #58
  29. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    JimGoneWild (View Comment):

    Maybe a Squid confused the translation of leagues, fathoms, to feet.

    We have a decoder ring.

    • #59
  30. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    cqness (View Comment):
    When alongside each other there is a venturi effect between the ships which tends to pull them together and requires the receiving ship to steer slightly away from the ordered course most of the time to keep the distance between the ships constant.

    I am trying to figure out how the net torque on either vessel is zero, which obviously it is in this configuration.

    With the vessels oriented at an angle, it seems that the relative waterspeed on the inward-facing hull sides would increase as you go aft, meaning the pressure would be lowest at the sterns?

    Is there a counter-balancing low pressure on the aft portion of outward-facing hull sides?

    • #60
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