Using Children to Advance the Progressive Agenda

 

One of the latest attacks on religious freedom comes from a demand of the New York State Office of Children and Family Services, that all adoption agencies must approve adoptions to gay and lesbian parents.

New Hope Family Services is the adoption agency that has filed a lawsuit against the state, protesting that this requirement is inconsistent with their faith. This is the background of the lawsuit:

New Hope Family Services is a religious adoptive provider and pregnancy center that has served Syracuse women, children, and families since 1965. Founded by a group of local Christian ministers, the organization has found over 1,000 forever homes for children since opening its doors. In 1986, New Hope added a pregnancy center to provide pregnancy tests, medical referrals, and counseling to anyone in need, in addition to its comprehensive adoption services. Because of New Hope’s belief in marriage as the union of one man and one woman, New Hope places children only in homes with a married mother and father, while referring unmarried couples, same-sex couples, and others to nearby adoption providers.

New Hope clearly articulates its beliefs to clients and has faced no formal complaints from prospective clients due to its policy. Yet, the New York State Office of Children and Family Services (OCFS) sent New Hope a letter in October 2018 describing its policy as “discriminatory and impermissible.” OCFS gave New Hope an ultimatum that it either revise its policy or it would be required to submit a close-out plan for its adoption program.

Clearly these legal requirements being forced on New Hope have nothing to do with the welfare of the children. The government agency points to the research that same-sex couples can be just as effective as heterosexual couples at raising children. The OCFS explained their 2013 policy  in this way:

The amendments also promote fairness and equality in the child welfare adoption program by eliminating archaic regulatory language that implies the sexual orientation of gay, lesbian, and bisexual prospective adoptive parents — but not of heterosexual prospective adoptive parents — is relevant to evaluating their appropriateness as adoptive parents.

Moreover, OCFS is charged with the welfare of children, and protecting the children of same-sex couples accomplishes that [my italics].

Again, the religious and moral issue is completely ignored in this policy; the fact that children being adopted by gay couples is outside the norm of religious doctrine and relationships is irrelevant. I wonder ( in the sentence italicized just above) what the OCFS is promising to protect the children from?

Catholic Charities, an organization also highly respected for their adoption services, is considering the shutting down of their adoptive services rather than serve same-sex couples. Catholic Charities of Buffalo suspended its adoption work this past August.

The tide is rising against those organizations that choose to serve children within a Christian framework. Congress, however, is considering protection for child welfare agencies following nine states that passed legislation in 2017 and 2018: Alabama, Texas, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, North Dakota, and South Carolina; to shield organizations from requirements that conflict with their religious beliefs. By the way, New Hope receives no government funds for its operations. And it only places approximately ten children per year.

I’m encouraged that legislation is being considered by Congress to take steps against government intrusion and anti-religion actions. Still, there is the question of whether this kind of issue should be resolved at the state level. Clearly, the actions against adoption agencies are being taken to further the gay rights agenda.

It has nothing to do with the children.

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  1. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    TBA (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    How about the more robust studies (because the data set is yuge!) that show children of divorced parents who are raised by their dads have better outcomes than if raised by their moms? Is that ideology? And why would that be? Could it be that dads provide a different set of parenting parameters (boundary enforcement) than moms?

    I would hazard that part of that might be that moms raising children is the default – in many cases the dad is either unknown or unavailable – while in the relatively rare cases where the dad is chosen because he can demonstrate that he would be so much better a parent than the mom that even our anti-male courts are convinced, such a dad would be…well, pretty damned superior.

    Which is not to say that there isn’t any validity to the idea that single dads aren’t innately superior to single moms, just that this data too seems weak.

    Divorced parenting is already suboptimal. But, there is definitely something to men being boundary enforcers that ultimately works to kids’ advantage. These “outcomes” were high-school and secondary graduation rates, staying out of jail, earning ability, etc. Desirable outcomes as adults. I think the evidence that single motherhood (fatherless children) is disastrous for a lot of kids is pretty substantial. Larry Elder, for example, talks about it being the number one problem to fix if you want to help black kids (and society in general). That’s what I’m trying to get at. 

    Men and women are different. They respond differently to life situations. Women can certainly be heroic single moms, but many (most?) divorcee moms will trash talk the dad, become bitter and resentful, and impose their emotional issues onto their kids. They (we) also lack the authority-figure boundary enforcement abilities of men — speaking from personal experience. Women generally do a poor job of this. We have other desirable parenting qualities, which is why it is ideal to have a two-parent, male/female household. But, kids benefit tremendously from guardrails. 

    • #31
  2. Josh F. Member
    Josh F.
    @

    Susan Quinn: Catholic Charities, an organization also highly respected for their adoption services, is considering the shutting down of their adoptive services rather than serve same-sex couples

    I hope they find a middle way.  I hope that activists on both sides will treat each other with compassion as we seek to find families for these children.

    • #32
  3. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Looking at gay adoption studies does not tell the whole story for many reasons. It’s a very mixed picture. First, there’s this from Cornell University (emphasis mine):

    We identified 79 scholarly studies that met our criteria for adding to knowledge about the well-being of children with gay or lesbian parents. Of those studies, 75 concluded that children of gay or lesbian parents fare no worse than other children. While many of the sample sizes were small, and some studies lacked a control group, researchers regard such studies as providing the best available knowledge about child adjustment, and do not view large, representative samples as essential. We identified four studies concluding that children of gay or lesbian parents face added disadvantages. Since all four took their samples from children who endured family break-ups, a cohort known to face added risks, these studies have been criticized by many scholars as unreliable assessments of the well-being of LGB-headed households. Taken together, this research forms an overwhelming scholarly consensus, based on over three decades of peer-reviewed research, that having a gay or lesbian parent does not harm children.

    In other words, some of these studies looked at only children in single-parent divorced homes because they were studies of adoptees, not children in general.

    Furthermore, children’s well-being cannot be measured by talking to children. Research has to be conducted on adults who have seen a little bit of the larger world and can look back at their childhood for the roots of their adult happiness or discontent.

    Also, if a homosexual lifestyle is all a child has ever known, if his or her parents constantly tell him or her how wonderful the homosexual lifestyle is, that will affect the child’s objectivity.

    Over the last decade, a lot of kids would think it was really cool to be brought up in a gay household. And because the lifestyle is so frequently promoted in the mass media, it’s much more likely today to create a positive outcome than it would have been twenty years ago, when a teenager living in a gay household would have been a highly abnormal way to grow up. So some of my fears for adopted children’s mental health have never materialized. I think it can work well if everyone wants it.

    I have many concerns about birth parents in foster care or adoptive situations not having the right to specify that their children be placed in a heterosexual family. (In Massachusetts parents do not have that right.) As a society, we have to respect the parents’ wishes in terms of religion and sexuality. This priority should be inviolable. Adding to the urgency in this regard is that expecting parents to give up that control will cause many parents in need of help to withhold or seriously delay giving their permission for adoption or foster care.

    All excellent points, @marcin! Thank you!

    • #33
  4. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Men and women are different. They respond differently to life situations. Women can certainly be heroic single moms, but many (most?) divorcee moms will trash talk the dad, become bitter and resentful, and impose their emotional issues onto their kids. They (we) also lack the authority-figure boundary enforcement abilities of men — speaking from personal experience. Women generally do a poor job of this. We have other desirable parenting qualities, which is why it is ideal to have a two-parent, male/female household. But, kids benefit tremendously from guardrails. 

    Extremely important to making the point, @westernchauvinist. I think that boundary management overall in society is deficient to the extreme, and it’s not getting better soon!

    • #34
  5. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    but many (most?) divorcee moms will trash talk the dad, become bitter and resentful, and impose their emotional issues onto their kids.

    I was a single mom, and I never, ever trash talked about their fathers. My parents were divorced and each trashed the other, my father and his parents as well as my mother and her family about my dad.

    The father of my older child had died at age 27, no point in trashing him. I did all in my power to facilitate a loving relationship with my younger daughter and her dad. I have met other divorced couples who encourage a close relationship with the other parent.

    • #35
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    but many (most?) divorcee moms will trash talk the dad, become bitter and resentful, and impose their emotional issues onto their kids.

    I was a single mom, and I never, ever trash talked about their fathers. My parents were divorced and each trashed the other, my father and his parents as well as my mother and her family about my dad.

    The father of my older child had died at age 27, no point in trashing him. I did all in my power to facilitate a loving relationship with my younger daughter and her dad. I have met other divorced couples who encourage a close relationship with the other parent.

    I’ve no doubt you were a good mom, @kayofmt. For the record, someone else made that comment, not me.

    • #36
  7. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    I do want to make a point with you, @zafar, and you (as always) can accept or reject it. We’ve respectfully discussed issues back and forth and I think we have a certain rapport, even though we often disagree. I don’t know what it’s like to be gay, or to fight for equal rights or for fair treatment. I try to be balanced in most of my assessments (although I do a lousy job of it with Israel!) and I think that your argument doesn’t ring true (in terms of being valid). All of us face some kind of discrimination in our lives; sometimes it’s obvious, sometimes it’s not. I know that when I was a consultant, there were men who likely didn’t hire me because I was a woman. And you know what? That was fine with me. They never said so, of course, since they would have been accused of discrimination. I didn’t care what their reasons were; they didn’t want to work with me. Fortunately there were lots of other clients in the sea (bad play on words), and I moved on to find them.

    This situation isn’t about giving children the best outcomes or the most options. I think you are continuing the battle to make sure that gays have rights in every area, with every potential opportunity. In this case, where the pool of potential heterosexual adoptive parents is huge (and they may not all be well-suited but I’d wager many of them are) and because pool of potential gay parents is tiny, and many organizations will serve them, I just don’t think this is battle field to die on. I can understand if you worry that every limitation could start a slippery slope, but I think we are far beyond your needing to consider that.

    I would hope that on balance, you can see the wisdom of respecting the religious convictions of the Christian organizations, knowing that the gay population can be well-served elsewhere.

     

    • #37
  8. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Kay of MT (View Comment):
    I was a single mom, and I never, ever trash talked about their fathers. My parents were divorced and each trashed the other, my father and his parents as well as my mother and her family about my dad.

    I’m not surprised, Kay. Interesting how some people build good character off of bad (childhood) experiences and some don’t. My parents were both from very dysfunctional homes (Mom’s parents separated, but never divorced — they were Catholic. Dad’s parents divorced and remarried twice each! When divorce just wasn’t done!), and decided from the start to have a happy marriage. They succeeded as you did being a single mom. Good on you and good for your kids!

    • #38
  9. Ralphie Inactive
    Ralphie
    @Ralphie

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    We have other desirable parenting qualities, which is why it is ideal to have a two-parent, male/female household. But, kids benefit tremendously from guardrails. 

    Adam Carolla took a lot of flak for saying “all things being equal, he would rather have his children raised by a momma and pappa than two mommas and two pappas.”  He emphasized, which many ignored, “all things being equal.”  I am with you on this. There are also gay people who think children benefit from mothers and fathers.  Rupert Evert from a Telegraph sept 2012 interview:

    “The star of the 1998 film Shakespeare in Love blazed a trail for gay actors when he came out as homosexual 20 years ago.

    However, he has been criticised by gay rights groups after giving an interview in which he decried same-sex couples who have children.

    The 53-year-old told the Sunday Times Magazine that his mother Sara had met his boyfriend but “still wishes I had a wife and kids.”

    “She thinks children need a father and a mother and I agree with her,” he said. “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.

    “Some people might not agree with that. Fine! That’s just my opinion.”

    Perhaps he’s been chastised lately and has changed his mind (or had it changed for him).

    • #39
  10. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.”

    Two lesbians? Seriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    • #40
  11. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.”

    Two lesbians? Seriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    I would presume that adoption of non-biologically related children by gay male couples is far more common than similar adoption by lesbian couples, due to simple biology – lesbians are  capable of having a child (either “naturally” or through AI) themselves, while men do not have that option.

    • #41
  12. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.”

    Two lesbians? Seriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    I would presume that adoption of non-biologically related children by gay male couples is far more common than similar adoption by lesbian couples, due to simple biology – lesbians are capable of having a child (either “naturally” or through AI) themselves, while men do not have that option.

    Yabbut one or the other still has to “adopt.” My daughter’s chemo doc was half of a lesbian couple planning to adopt, and neither of them were giving birth. So, it happens.

    And gay guys can be (and often are) biological dads who’ve divorced their wives. There is no limit to how screwed up human relations can be and how we inflict it on our kids. 

    • #42
  13. Ralphie Inactive
    Ralphie
    @Ralphie

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.”

    Two lesbians? Seriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    There was also the lesbian couple that adopted 3 or 4 kids and drove them all off the cliff earlier this year. Really drove them off a cliff in California killing them all.

    • #43
  14. Ralphie Inactive
    Ralphie
    @Ralphie

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    eriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    Reminds me of Nassim Taleb:

    “Pedophrasty

    Definition: Argument involving children to prop up a rationalization and make the opponent look like an (expletive deleted), as people are defenseless and suspend all skepticism in front of suffering children: nobody has the heart to question the authenticity or source of the reporting. Often done with the aid of pictures.”

    • #44
  15. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    “I can’t think of anything worse than being brought up by two gay dads.”

    Two lesbians? Seriously, I felt so bad for that girl on American Idol a few years ago whose “mothers” were obviously damaged people who were politicizing her life for their purposes. Sad.

    I would presume that adoption of non-biologically related children by gay male couples is far more common than similar adoption by lesbian couples, due to simple biology – lesbians are capable of having a child (either “naturally” or through AI) themselves, while men do not have that option.

    Yabbut one or the other still has to “adopt.” My daughter’s chemo doc was half of a lesbian couple planning to adopt, and neither of them were giving birth. So, it happens.

    And gay guys can be (and often are) biological dads who’ve divorced their wives. There is no limit to how screwed up human relations can be and how we inflict it on our kids.

    That’s two radically different types of adoption – adopting the biological child of your partner is a different process from adopting an infant who is biologically unrelated to either parent.

    • #45
  16. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    That’s two radically different types of adoption – adopting the biological child of your partner is a different process from adopting an infant who is biologically unrelated to either parent.

    I don’t know if it’s radically different–it’s just different. Depending on the age of the child, he or she could see be affected by growing up with same-sex parents. In fact, in some ways it could be more complicated with hetero spouses in the background.

    • #46
  17. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    That’s two radically different types of adoption – adopting the biological child of your partner is a different process from adopting an infant who is biologically unrelated to either parent.

    I don’t know if it’s radically different–it’s just different. Depending on the age of the child, he or she could see be affected by growing up with same-sex parents. In fact, in some ways it could be more complicated with hetero spouses in the background.

    It’s just legalistic.  The couple already has the kid, it’s just a question  as to whether the non-biological partner is legally considered the parent.

    It’s not like if the adoption doesn’t go through the kid gets taken away from the biological parent [absent some *highly* unusual circumstance, I suppose].

     

    • #47
  18. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Interesting how some people build good character off of bad (childhood) experiences and some don’t.

    I worked in Social Services for 25 years, and saw so much misery. I remembered how bad is was for me to hear all the nasties about my parents, and then listen to parents in my office stating crap about their ex spouse in front of their children. I tried to stop it every time. What was really bad was having a parent state to their child, “You are going to grow up being the same kind of #### just like your dad or mother.”

    • #48
  19. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Interesting how some people build good character off of bad (childhood) experiences and some don’t.

    I worked in Social Services for 25 years, and saw so much misery. I remembered how bad is was for me to hear all the nasties about my parents, and then listen to parents in my office stating crap about their ex spouse in front of their children. I tried to stop it every time. What was really bad was having a parent state to their child, “You are going to grow up being the same kind of #### just like your dad or mother.”

    25 years is a very long time . . .it had to be tough.

    • #49
  20. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Let’s say there is a child being put up for adoption.

    There are five potential adoptive families who want to adopt the child.

    These are assessed, and the adoption goes forward with the one that’s found to be in the child‘s best interests. The best option in five.

    Reduce the number of potential families by using irrelevant measures, and that becomes the best option in, at best, four.

    Of course, the actual number is 36. As in, 72 people who want to be parents of a healthy infant competing with each other to get the birth mother to pick them, at the cost of thousands of dollars in home inspections, parenting classes, and gifts to the birth mother (and that have no right to be returned if the birth mother decides to not put the child up for adoption after all) 

    So no, I don’t think keeping gay couples from adopting will reduce the number of children being adopted. The normalization of out of wedlock births is the driving factor there. Abortions have been declining for decades, after all. 

    • #50
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    NY State rivals any state as the most Liberal in the country.  Governor Cuomo was the first to get legalized gay marriage in the United States.  He has bragged that he has expanded abortion rights to the fullest, making NYS the butcher capital of the country.  There was once a strong conservative minority that could counterbalance the left wing ideology, but in the last ten years or so that minority has completely collapsed.  The Libs have no opposition whatsoever, and so have pushed every conceivable social item on their agenda.  This issue does not surprise me.  Yes, I think we need national legislation on this to counteract this horrid law.  Anyone that thinks that gay parents are a good thing for children are living in a left wing reality.  

    • #51
  22. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    And don’t be fooled into thinking all studies show no issues with children raised from same sex couples.  First, Heritage shows that a lot of those studies are flawed.  And this from Dailywire cites studies that don’t show positive outcomes.  That article also cites D.C. McAllister, who I believe was a member here at Ricochet at one time.

    • #52
  23. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    How about the more robust studies (because the data set is yuge!) that show children of divorced parents who are raised by their dads have better outcomes than if raised by their moms? Is that ideology? And why would that be? Could it be that dads provide a different set of parenting parameters (boundary enforcement) than moms?

    I would hazard that part of that might be that moms raising children is the default – in many cases the dad is either unknown or unavailable – while in the relatively rare cases where the dad is chosen because he can demonstrate that he would be so much better a parent than the mom that even our anti-male courts are convinced, such a dad would be…well, pretty damned superior.

    Which is not to say that there isn’t any validity to the idea that single dads aren’t innately superior to single moms, just that this data too seems weak.

    Divorced parenting is already suboptimal. But, there is definitely something to men being boundary enforcers that ultimately works to kids’ advantage. These “outcomes” were high-school and secondary graduation rates, staying out of jail, earning ability, etc. Desirable outcomes as adults. I think the evidence that single motherhood (fatherless children) is disastrous for a lot of kids is pretty substantial. Larry Elder, for example, talks about it being the number one problem to fix if you want to help black kids (and society in general). That’s what I’m trying to get at.

    Men and women are different. They respond differently to life situations. Women can certainly be heroic single moms, but many (most?) divorcee moms will trash talk the dad, become bitter and resentful, and impose their emotional issues onto their kids. They (we) also lack the authority-figure boundary enforcement abilities of men — speaking from personal experience. Women generally do a poor job of this. We have other desirable parenting qualities, which is why it is ideal to have a two-parent, male/female household. But, kids benefit tremendously from guardrails.

    I have heard-tell that in some Muslim countries the women raise boys up to X age and then the fathers take over. I don’t imagine that it’s 100% mom and then 100% dad. There may be some wisdom in this. 

    You are right about the guardrails. Women can do it, but it is not in their nature. 

     

    • #53
  24. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    God (or Mother Nature if you prefer) designed human beings to be the product of a Female Mother and a Male Father.  Every human child is designed to be best raised in a household with a married Mother and Father.  Any other family type has to be less optimal for the natural raising of children.  The Homosexual Lobby has been attempting to tear down this family structure for decades, and they have been fairly successful at it.  Sorry, Zafar, but you are wrong.  The best interest of any human child is represented by a family with a married Mother and Father.

    Although, if you think about it most if not all homosexual relationships have a “male” and “female”-type partner.  Even same-sex relationships divide up the characteristics so as to resemble a heterosexual man/woman partnership.  Even homosexuals can’t avoid this kind of division of labor.  Funny.

    • #54
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    TBA (View Comment):

    I have heard-tell that in some Muslim countries the women raise boys up to X age and then the fathers take over. I don’t imagine that it’s 100% mom and then 100% dad. There may be some wisdom in this.

    You are right about the guardrails. Women can do it, but it is not in their nature.

    In the case of divorce boys stay with their mothers till the age of seven and then go to their fathers.  Girls stay with their mothers till the age of the 13 and then go to their fathers.  At least that’s the theory

     

    • #55
  26. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Zafar (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    I have heard-tell that in some Muslim countries the women raise boys up to X age and then the fathers take over. I don’t imagine that it’s 100% mom and then 100% dad. There may be some wisdom in this.

    You are right about the guardrails. Women can do it, but it is not in their nature.

    In the case of divorce boys stay with their mothers till the age of seven and then go to their fathers. Girls stay with their mothers till the age of the 13 and then go to their fathers. At least that’s the theory

    ty for clarifying. 

    • #56
  27. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    Even homosexuals can’t avoid this kind of division of labor.

    I don’t think we’re supposed to notice this. The counterfeit nature of same-sex unions. It wouldn’t be prudent in these PC times.

    • #57
  28. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    Although, if you think about it most if not all homosexual relationships have a “male” and “female”-type partner. Even same-sex relationships divide up the characteristics so as to resemble a heterosexual man/woman partnership. Even homosexuals can’t avoid this kind of division of labor. Funny.

    I don’t know if this is true or not. I had one gay friend many years ago, and I asked him if he and his partner took the part of husband and wife or “male and female.” He looked at me puzzled, shook his head and the conversation moved on.

    • #58
  29. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Are you saying this whole ‘gay thing’ is my Israel?

    Nooooooo!!! Perhaps….it is?

    This situation isn’t about giving children the best outcomes or the most options.

    How does removing gay couples from the mix not reduce the options for a child up for adoption?  Of course it does that.  Inevitably, unless we’re talking about the equivalent of a magic pudding.

    I don’t believe couples (or individuals) have a right to adopt. It’s a privilege.  Approaching it is a matter of gay rights or religious rights misses the point.

    The person with the rights in this situation is the child.

    I would hope that on balance, you can see the wisdom of respecting the religious convictions of the Christian organizations, knowing that the gay population can be well-served elsewhere.

    To my mind that fudges the essential question of our duty.

    If gay couples can provide children with homes that are as good, all else being equal, as the homes straight couples can provide, then it’s our duty to make that option available to children up for adoption.  Regardless of our personal biases and politics.

    If gay couples cannot provide children with homes that are as goood etc. then it’s clearly our duty to make sure that adoptions are limited to straight couples, or that straight couples get priority.  Again regardless of our personal biases and politics, and whether we are gay or straight.

    I understand that people genuinely differ on this “can/cannot” thing, which is why one needs to look at outcomes for the child ([using measures] which are not circular, eg “family formation” is a reasonable measure, “has a father and a mother role model” is a circular measure).

    Like almost everything else, it seems, this issue is becoming another proxy for the culture wars – which imho are all about who holds social power and says what goes and what doesn’t go.  Which is a pity, because it shouldn’t be about that, it should be about best outcomes for adoptees. Amirite?

    • #59
  30. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Are you saying this whole ‘gay thing’ is my Israel?

    Nooooooo!!! Perhaps….it is?

    This situation isn’t about giving children the best outcomes or the most options.

    How does removing gay couples from the mix not reduce the options for a child up for adoption? Of course it does that. Inevitably, unless we’re talking about the equivalent of a magic pudding.

    I don’t believe couples (or individuals) have a right to adopt. It’s a privilege. Approaching it is a matter of gay rights or religious rights misses the point.

    The person with the rights in this situation is the child.

    I would hope that on balance, you can see the wisdom of respecting the religious convictions of the Christian organizations, knowing that the gay population can be well-served elsewhere.

    To my mind that fudges the essential question of our duty.

    If gay couples can provide children with homes that are as good, all else being equal, as the homes straight couples can provide, then it’s our duty to make that option available to children up for adoption. Regardless of our personal biases and politics.

    If gay couples cannot provide children with homes that are as goood etc. then it’s clearly our duty to make sure that adoptions are limited to straight couples, or that straight couples get priority. Again regardless of our personal biases and politics, and whether we are gay or straight.

    I understand that people genuinely differ on this “can/cannot” thing, which is why one needs to look at outcomes for the child ([using measures] which are not circular, eg “family formation” is a reasonable measure, “has a father and a mother role model” is a circular measure).

    Like almost everything else, it seems, this issue is becoming another proxy for the culture wars – which imho are all about who holds social power and says what goes and what doesn’t go. Which is a pity, because it shouldn’t be about that, it should be about best outcomes for adoptees. Amirite?

    Mutual respect, open minds, and introspection? 

    Yer doing internet the wrong way. 

    • #60
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