Electric Car – It Dies Anew!

 

In February of 2012 I wrote a brilliant, prescient, and far-too-early prediction of the death of the electric car.

A123 is toast. Fisker is toast. Tesla is done for. All these hyped battery and superduperhypercapacitor companies are running aground, on the hard ground of a simple reality: gasoline/diesel are far, far, far better energy storage media than anything else. It is not even close.

….

The upshot is that the industry is falling back: it will adopt only those technologies that pay. Start-stop technologies work. Perhaps a series hybrid will pay,

And May of 2017, I doubled down, admitting that I was still too early, but still right.

And now…. The Chevy Volt was just cancelled.

Six years ago, President Barack Obama promised to buy a Chevy Volt after his presidency.

“I got to get inside a brand-new Chevy Volt fresh off the line,” Obama announced to a cheering crowd of United Auto Workers activists. “Even though Secret Service wouldn’t let me drive it. But I liked sitting in it. It was nice. I’ll bet it drives real good. And five years from now when I’m not president anymore, I’ll buy one and drive it myself.”

Now it looks like Obama will not get his chance to make good on the promise. General Motors announced Monday that it would cease production of the hybrid electric plug-in Volt and its gas-powered sister car the Cruze. The announcement came as part of a larger restructuring by the car company as it seeks to focus production around the bigger vehicles in favor with U.S. consumers.

And if the government subsidies would be pulled, I think the original prediction will still hold true: the cost-benefit analysis for electric (not hybrid like the Prius, but pure electric) makes it a terrible business on the basis of utility. The market will remain for people who have enough money to overpay for an inferior product in order to show their superiority.

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  1. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Richard Harvester (View Comment):

    Aside from some old Better Place cars and some BMW i-cars, there are no full-electrics here in Israel.

    If they made sense anywhere, they’d make sense here. There are no long-range drives, no long open roads without potential charging stations etc… They’d even get tax rebates for having smaller engines.

    But somehow, there seems to be no demand.

    hmmm…

    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-israel-lags-world-on-electric-vehicles-report-1001224936

    i used to have meetings with the Saudis. They just loved my Jag. And why not? It proved I was a reliable petroleum customer. When I showed up in the Leaf, not so much. I hadn’t realized that pleasing the Arabs was such a big deal to Israel. 

    • #61
  2. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Coolidge
    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo…
    @GumbyMark

    This post confuses the Chevy Volt, a hybrid that GM will stop producing, with the Chevy Bolt, an all-electric, that it will continue to make.

    • #62
  3. Richard Harvester Inactive
    Richard Harvester
    @RichardHarvester

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-israel-lags-world-on-electric-vehicles-report-1001224936

    i used to have meetings with the Saudis. They just loved my Jag. And why not? It proved I was a reliable petroleum customer. When I showed up in the Leaf, not so much. I hadn’t realized that pleasing the Arabs was such a big deal to Israel.

    It is odd, especially considering the cost of gas. Priuses sell, but I think people just might not trust batteries all the way. For a variety of reasons, they tend to have very short lives here and that might make people nervous.

    • #63
  4. C. U. Douglas Coolidge
    C. U. Douglas
    @CUDouglas

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fuel injection “died” in 1959. It was a flop. Air bags “died” in 1974; it was an experiment that didn’t catch on. Multichannel home theater systems “died” with quadraphonic in 1975. There are no final victories in the world of tech. There are a few final defeats, but not as many as we think. You don’t see any steam-propelled cars on the road. When circumstances change, we change with them. Electrics weren’t practical in 1966; they are now.

    Which is why the government needs to be out of endorsing them so much. The technology can change and improve, overcoming the problems like digging up lithium and all that. Government tends to maintain the status quo.

    • #64
  5. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Governments and Progressives really really like electric cars.  Almost as much as they like trains.  The thought is if the government and early adopters can fund the development of the technology, that electric cars will be competitive  with gasoline or diesel.     Not sure that will actually work.

    • #65
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Governments and Progressives really really like electric cars. Almost as much as they like trains. The thought is if the government and early adopters can fund the development of the technology, that electric cars will be competitive with gasoline or diesel. Not sure that will actually work.

    Somebody should catalog all the subsidized businesses and products that eventually weaned themselves off the subsidies and stood on their own.  Somebody other than me, because I can’t think of any offhand.

    • #66
  7. C. U. Douglas Coolidge
    C. U. Douglas
    @CUDouglas

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Governments and Progressives really really like electric cars. Almost as much as they like trains. The thought is if the government and early adopters can fund the development of the technology, that electric cars will be competitive with gasoline or diesel. Not sure that will actually work.

    Somebody should catalog all the subsidized businesses and products that eventually weaned themselves off the subsidies and stood on their own. Somebody other than me, because I can’t think of any offhand.

    Best example: Phone companies.

    • #67
  8. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fuel injection “died” in 1959. It was a flop. Air bags “died” in 1974; it was an experiment that didn’t catch on. Multichannel home theater systems “died” with quadraphonic in 1975. There are no final victories in the world of tech. There are a few final defeats, but not as many as we think. You don’t see any steam-propelled cars on the road. When circumstances change, we change with them. Electrics weren’t practical in 1966; they are now.

    Well now… turbine-powered cars died. There are a host of technologies that were tried and did not pan out for technical or economic reasons.

    Electric cars fail for the economic reasons driven by the enormous gap between the energy storage in a pound of batteries versus the energy storage in a pound of gasoline.

    • #68
  9. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    C. U. Douglas (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Governments and Progressives really really like electric cars. Almost as much as they like trains. The thought is if the government and early adopters can fund the development of the technology, that electric cars will be competitive with gasoline or diesel. Not sure that will actually work.

    Somebody should catalog all the subsidized businesses and products that eventually weaned themselves off the subsidies and stood on their own. Somebody other than me, because I can’t think of any offhand.

    Best example: Phone companies.

    Their monopoly was protected, but I didn’t know they were subsidized. Maybe that example is as close as we’re going to get? 

    • #69
  10. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    iWe (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fuel injection “died” in 1959. It was a flop. Air bags “died” in 1974; it was an experiment that didn’t catch on. Multichannel home theater systems “died” with quadraphonic in 1975. There are no final victories in the world of tech. There are a few final defeats, but not as many as we think. You don’t see any steam-propelled cars on the road. When circumstances change, we change with them. Electrics weren’t practical in 1966; they are now.

    Well now… turbine-powered cars died. There are a host of technologies that were tried and did not pan out for technical or economic reasons.

    Electric cars fail for the economic reasons driven by the enormous gap between the energy storage in a pound of batteries versus the energy storage in a pound of gasoline.

    Which is not the only relevant fact in the issue. Energy storage isn’t all there is. What do we do to get the energy? What does it cost to build an engine or a motor? What’s the intended use? A cross country moving van, or a neighborhood grocery getter? Those answers have everything to do with success and failure. Our car is a vast improvement on what we were paying for gas, with no drawbacks. Your mileage, of course, may differ. 

    Turbine cars were supposed to free us from oil, because they “could run on anything! Diesel fuel, kerosene”…both of which come from oil. Oh, and “Remy Martin and Chanel #5!” Like that was going to solve the 1970s gas crisis. 

    • #70
  11. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    DonG (View Comment):

    Electric cars have a good future in Europe and China. The US is too big to go all in on electric now, but hybrid is viable now. In another 20 years, batteries will make all electric superior. While the Volt is canceled, the Bolt will keep being built. It was dumb to have those two names, so problem solved.

    So battery technology which hasn’t advanced sufficiently in 150 years to make electrics competitive will somehow advance to that level in the next twenty?  Color me skeptical. Some dreams remain just that, dreams, no matter how many subsidies are applied. 

    • #71
  12. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    DonG (View Comment):

    Electric cars have a good future in Europe and China. The US is too big to go all in on electric now, but hybrid is viable now. In another 20 years, batteries will make all electric superior. While the Volt is canceled, the Bolt will keep being built. It was dumb to have those two names, so problem solved.

    Better than trying to sell the legendary No Va in Mexico, though.

    China has some interesting policies about electric cars: Small gutless ones (top speed around 30 or 40 m(I think)ph don’t need a licensed driver.

     

    • #72
  13. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    About Israel, wouldn’t living in a hot climate make an electric car less viable?  I expect the A/C would drain too much battery. How long does it take an electric car to recharge its battery?  How long does it take to fill your gas tank?

    Range Anxiety.  Not for me, thank you.

    • #73
  14. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    WillowSpring (View Comment):
    As an Electrical Engineer, I think the absolutely worst name for an all electric car is the “Chevy Spark”. No way I’m getting into one of those.

    The Chevy Bolt wasn’t a bad name though.

    It was a terrible name in a world where they had been selling the “Volt” for several years.

    Let’s be honest, GM is pretty terrible at naming cars in general, not just the electric ones. Their only good names are taken from their classic models. e.g. Malibu, Impala, Camaro, etc.

    Maybe they should start going with an alpha-numeric naming convention.

    “The Chevy 9001. It’s over nine thousand!”

    Or the 6000 SUX.

    • #74
  15. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    About Israel, wouldn’t living in a hot climate make an electric car less viable? I expect the A/C would drain too much battery. How long does it take an electric car to recharge its battery? How long does it take to fill your gas tank?

    Range Anxiety. Not for me, thank you.

    Cold, not heat, reduces driving range (although the Negev in August would probably be extreme enough to be an exception). Charging time differs. Most cars made after 2011 or so, including all Teslas, can be charged slowly with 120 or 240 volts, but also accept a DC charge in 20 minutes. (It uses a lot of juice, so DC is not for home charging). In the UK and Ireland, most gas stations have DC chargers as well. Range anxiety is real, but it’s also overblown for most people as an issue. Almost any electric car built in this century is good for 75 miles, but the newest ones are in the 120-and-up range, and of course the Tesla has colossal range at colossal cost. 

    • #75
  16. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    iWe (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Fuel injection “died” in 1959. It was a flop. Air bags “died” in 1974; it was an experiment that didn’t catch on. Multichannel home theater systems “died” with quadraphonic in 1975. There are no final victories in the world of tech. There are a few final defeats, but not as many as we think. You don’t see any steam-propelled cars on the road. When circumstances change, we change with them. Electrics weren’t practical in 1966; they are now.

    Well now… turbine-powered cars died. There are a host of technologies that were tried and did not pan out for technical or economic reasons.

    Electric cars fail for the economic reasons driven by the enormous gap between the energy storage in a pound of batteries versus the energy storage in a pound of gasoline.

    Do they still make Wankel engines?

    • #76
  17. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    What happens when there is a natural disaster, and power is out for an extended period? Your $100,000 Tesla becomes a hunk of junk, and totally useless. Your gasoline vehicle can not only take you places, its lights can help someone else do what they need to do, and you can transport others. You can stockpile gasoline, but you can’t stockpile electricity.

    No electricity puts the gas stations out of service, too. Granted, if I have no gas stockpiled I can catch a ride and fill my gas can outside the effective radius, and bootstrap that way. Of course, last power outage the lightning took out the cell towers too, so catching that ride would have been a neat trick, too. The Tesla owner would just rent a car and driver or run his $5000 generator consuming whatever is available, petroleum, natural gas, kerosene, or whatever. Also, stored gasoline has a knack for degrading in long term storage.

    • #77
  18. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    Do they still make Wankel engines?

    According to a quick search, Mazda last made one in 2012 but Fox News says they expect to return to the market in 2019. 

    • #78
  19. Bigfoot Inactive
    Bigfoot
    @Bigfoot

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    You did not read far enough in that article about the Volt being cancelled. So are a bunch of gasoline sedans. The article said they were being discontinued, and five GM plants being shuttered, in favor of autonomous (self-driving, not-even-approved) and electric vehicles. GM is doubling down on electric.

    One big thing you need if you have an electric car is Electricity. What happens when there is a natural disaster, and power is out for an extended period? Your $100,000 Tesla becomes a hunk of junk, and totally useless. Your gasoline vehicle can not only take you places, its lights can help someone else do what they need to do, and you can transport others. You can stockpile gasoline, but you can’t stockpile electricity.

    You can, but you won’t. The amount of gas you can safely store above ground is small, maybe a tankful. Only a tiny number of homeowners can afford, or want, underground gasoline tanks in their backyard. Heck, if they’ve got that much dough, they can use the gas to run a Honda generator to charge an electric if they really wanted to.

    If the electricity goes out, so do the pumps in all the gas stations; they have no way to pump it out manually.

    Not exactly. In CT my neighbor and I both have 1000 gal gasoline tanks in our yards, underground. The cost is minimal and the payback is rapid as long as you pay attention to the normal cycles of price. The pump can, and has been, powered by a very small portable Honda(!!) generator. Acre lots are the norm. During the last October storm(2011) that knocked out power for a week and longer the smart gasoline dealers in the area, admittedly a small minority as this is far leftie and strident Never Trump territory*, kept pumps running with backup generators. There was a groundswell of support for mandating backup generators at ‘critical’ fuel stations. Fortunately that quickly died in legislative committee.

    In Texas we have dual 1000 gal propane tanks resting on the ground (concrete slab) and an elevated 1000 gal gasoline tank also anchored to a concrete slab. All are quite safe and serviceable and COMMON in the area. Gasoline is available by gravity feed so electric power is not needed. Backup generators are common.

    Recharging an electric with a Honda generator is problematic in both situations. A home charger for a Tesla is rated at 100A. The backup generator is best utilized for keeping the fridge and furnace running, air conditioner in Texas and so on.

    Gasoline deliveries, in my experience, include stabilizer. The jobbers who deliver are prepared to service the needs of homeowners and small business owners who must be prepared in case of lengthy weather disruptions.

    For others, safe and convenient storage of one or two 30 gallon containers of (stabilized) gasoline, diesel, or fuel oil is not just possible but recommended for the occasional weather emergency.

    For those of us who have a family need, or elderly neighbors, where home dialysis, breathing assistance and so on is in use preparation for emergencies is mandatory.

    *Perhaps prejudicial, but my observation is that the far lefties and strident Never Trumpers tend to be unwilling to be prepared for emergencies and assist those nearby in the neighborhood. Possibly this is just a generational difference, since us old you-know-whats have tried to be good boy scouts as a consequence of our upbringing….

    • #79
  20. cirby Inactive
    cirby
    @cirby

    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    If you have a mass evacuation, with normal cars you can assume at least a couple of hundred miles of evacuation range with a full tank of gas – and a refuel time of a few minutes at most.

    My beat up old Subaru Outback can do over 300 miles – and some car models can easily beat 500 on one tank of gas. A moderate number of tanker trucks can handle a heckuva lot of cars.

    Electrics? Nope. You have, for the most part, 100 to 150 miles – and then they all either park their dead cars, or find one of the few places to recharge – overnight. Maybe.

    One of those Armageddon-style “evacuate the coast” situations will end up with a lot of ecologically-minded people walking after the first hour or so. Sure, there will also be a lot of people who ran out of gas – but as a percentage, the e-cars will be dropping a lot more often.

     

    • #80
  21. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    cirby (View Comment):

    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    This is why you should always carry a bicycle on your car. If you run out of gas, you just take it off the car and go get some.

     

     

    • #81
  22. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    This is why you should always carry a bicycle on your car. If you run out of gas, you just take it off the car and go get some.

     

     

    Go with the motorcycle, instead. Great mileage.

    • #82
  23. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    This is why you should always carry a bicycle on your car. If you run out of gas, you just take it off the car and go get some.

     

    Or just go pick up a new battery pack! Yeah…

    • #83
  24. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    iWe (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    This is why you should always carry a bicycle on your car. If you run out of gas, you just take it off the car and go get some.

     

    Or just go pick up a new battery pack! Yeah…

    Or haul one with you everywhere you go. And a crane to move the old out and drop in the new.

    • #84
  25. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    There’s no official conservative position about propellers versus jets, synfuels versus oil, sleeve bearings as opposed to ball bearings, or AC vs. DC; you use the tool that best fits the job. Where I live, a fairly flat city with a warm climate, the electric car does a terrific local job far cheaper than gasoline, yep, even with all of the externals built in, including battery manufacture and power generation. (My most recent previous cars were a Jaguar XJ8, a Pontiac GTO, and a Chrysler Crossfire built in Germany; I’m not exactly opposed to gasoline on principle).

    Now, if you live in a cold, mountainous place of long distances, you’d look damned foolish driving an electric. It’s not for you. Then again, if you drove down the street here in a raised 4×4 that weighs 4500 pounds, you’d also look damned foolish. But I do see five foot tall women weighing all of 105 pounds driving them because they make them feel secure. (Against what? Aggressive grocery baggers at Whole Foods?) It’s a virtue signal. She is proclaiming: I am an empowered person; after all I sit higher than you. Yeah, it looks silly.

    i don’t get why conservatives care, frankly. Your neighbor is vegan? Is it bothering you? Why? If you’re letting environmentalists live in your head, rent free, why not evict them?

    Because: 
    https://youtu.be/z0O_VYcsIk8

     

    • #85
  26. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    cirby (View Comment):
    The biggest issue I have with electric cars is the “oh crap” scenario.

    Another one came to me back in the rolling blackouts in California back in the Enron era. The legislature had mandated that a certain percentage of cars in California be electric. Nobody was making them or buying them in the required numbers.

    I thought this was a good thing: if everyone drove their electric car back from work on a hot day and plugged it in to recharge the combination of that load and the need for air conditioning would have taken the whole grid down.

    • #86
  27. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    So since its time has arrived, it doesn’t need subsidies?  Or is it the government in its infinite wisdom and lack of corruption just sees the future better than the rest of the technological and energy world?  

    • #87
  28. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    About Israel, wouldn’t living in a hot climate make an electric car less viable? I expect the A/C would drain too much battery. How long does it take an electric car to recharge its battery? How long does it take to fill your gas tank?

    Range Anxiety. Not for me, thank you.

    Where do Israelis get the electricity to charge the cars? A unique problem with Israel is that they lack the land for a large nuclear power infrastructure.

    Generation and transmission of electricity are also military vulnerabilities. a small hezbolla missile attack could knock those out for a year. Meanwhile gasoline tankers could dock at makeshift ports and offload to tanker trucks Overlord-style.

    • #88
  29. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Here is some highly relevant information for those on the “batteries will get better” bandwagon:

    The inescapable LIB range anxiety problem is basic electrochemistry. Although the figures vary some with precise cathode composition, the theoretical limit for LIB LCO or NMC is ~280Wh/kg. The Tesla cell is already 254Wh/kg in 2018! Elon Musk cannot overcome approaching that theoretical limit with his Tesla GigaFactories. Nor can any LIB startup, no matter how innovative they claim to be.

    So batteries are as good as they are going to be – at least using any chemistry we already know works.

    Also note:

    Tesla says its Supercharger stations are an alternative range anxiety solution (20 minutes to 50% charge, 40 minutes to 80%—versus 5 minutes to gas up). BUT what they don’t say is that such rapid charging kills battery life due to rapid charging heat buildup thanks to the inescapable Nernst electrochemistry equation, which is derivable in two separate ways (fundamental thermodynamics and Boltzmann statistical mechanics) insuring Nernst is ‘real’–like the Pythagorean theorem.

    Source.

    Note that this does not preclude some kind of unexpected breakthrough in energy storage. So electric cars might still, somehow, end up economically competitive on a level playing field. But not given what we know – and in the face of old-fashioned engines continuing to improve and be optimized.

    • #89
  30. Songwriter Inactive
    Songwriter
    @user_19450

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    i don’t get why conservatives care, frankly. Your neighbor is vegan? Is it bothering you? Why? If you’re letting environmentalists live in your head, rent free, why not evict them?

    Because we have to pay for it in the form of gigantic subsidies.

    I’m perfectly content with people buying any technology they want on their own dime.

    A buddy of mine, quite conservative guy, bought a Lexus hybrid several years ago, when they were new. He got a significant tax break for buying a luxury automobile. Whenever we would ride to lunch in his car, he would thank me for buying part of his car. 

    • #90
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