An Austrian State May Require Registration for Orthodox Jews to Buy Kosher Meats

 

When I read the headline, I felt nauseous. Visions of yellow stars drifted through my head. Before I completely overreacted, I thought I should check out the facts; after checking, I was less alarmed, but not by much.

In Lower Austria, Gottfried Waldhäusl, a cabinet minister and Freedom Party member in the state of Lower Austria, is in charge of animal welfare as well as other responsibilities. A draft decree has been issued there to ban sales of kosher meat except to those people who register for permits who can prove they are observant Jews. He insisted that these requirements were necessary from the point of view of protecting animals.

Critics of the production of kosher meats declare that the practices to produce kosher meats are cruel. Observant Jews, however, along with other requirements, require that the animal be killed in one blow, to prevent suffering.

Klaus Schneeberger, the regional leader of the ruling Austrian People’s party of Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, has said the plan will not be implemented. Complications may arise since the Austrian People’s Party entered a coalition agreement with the Freedom Party or FPO last year following a federal election. The FPO was created by a former Nazi SS soldier in the 1950s. The party has been accused of using anti-Semitic rhetoric although it has most recently tried to distance itself from this kind of speech.

A couple of factors related to the current climate strike me: the focus of this decree has been on the Jews, even though it will likely affect Muslims, too. Some right-wing secret student fraternities, which have existed for many years, embrace anti-Semitic rhetoric. The Forum Against Anti-Semitism in Austria received 503 reported cases of anti-Semitism. On one level, anti-Semitic acts are hardly unheard of in Europe; on the other hand, this combination of factors is hard to ignore.

A politically correct tweet was issued by the Austrian Ambassador to Israel saying:

It has given rise to great concerns in Austria’s Jewish and Muslim community. Leading politicians from Lower Austria have thus gone on record and made it clear that they will find a solution together with these communities—and allay all fears!

Why am I not reassured?

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  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    I don’t get why they object to kosher slaughter? Isn’t it more humane to kill the animal in one go?

    The modern industry standard for humane slaughter is pre-slaughter stunning, which requires technology people in biblical times simply did not have.

    Kosher slaughter is so obviously not intended to be cruel to animals that it seems strange to object to it as a cruel practice, even if other ways do cause less suffering. To us, it seems strange to object to a practice as “cruelty” when it’s clearly not going out of its way to be cruel. Europeans seem to be a little different in this respect. For example, consider the naming laws surrounding children.

    When you think about it, how can we do anything but guess about what an animal experiences? Torturing an animal before killing it is clearly out of bounds, but if the stunning technique is not done properly, the animal still suffers.

    • #31
  2. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    And just so you know who is the good guy in all of this, Russia will set you straight:

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Russia-concerned-about-military-confrontation-between-Israel-and-Iran-562914

     

    If everyone would just mind their own business . . . thanks for the links, FSC.

    • #32
  3. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    I am truly surprised that anybody is surprised.  How did people think encouraging nativists in Austria (or anywhere in Europe) was going to end?

    • #33
  4. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Zafar (View Comment):

    I am truly surprised that anybody is surprised. How did people think encouraging nativists in Austria (or anywhere in Europe) was going to end?

    You don’t think this is an earnest policy proposed for the benefit of animals?  

     

    • #34
  5. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Susan Quinn: Observant Jews, however, along with other requirements, require that the animal be killed in one blow, to prevent suffering.

    Not quite. For livestock, kosher slaughter (shechitah) involves a single, uninterrupted, unhesitating cut using a very sharp knife with a smooth edge. The cut must simultaneously sever the esophagus, trachea, carotid arteries and jugular veins.

    This is best done with the animal standing, and (except for when the Temple stood) generally not done on a mass scale. Large scale operations with modern sanitation laws have tended to incorporate procedures like shackling and hoisting which, for unstunned animals (as required by shechitah) isn’t humane.

    Livestock expert Temple Grandin wrote (in the wake of a major scandal)

    I have worked in the beef industry for 30 years designing equipment to
    improve animal welfare. In North America half of the non-kosher cattle are handled
    in equipment I designed. I have also designed equipment for holding cattle and
    calves for shechitah. I have found that the ancient method of kosher slaughter
    can be the most humane, or terribly cruel, depending on the shochet’s skill
    and the methods used.
    The laws of kashrut dictate that the cattle be slaughtered with a sharp
    knife, causing almost instantaneous death with no pain. Unfortunately, these laws
    do not directly address modern restraining methods that they could hardly have
    envisioned.
    The result is that some kosher slaughterhouses employ a shackle-and-hoist
    system in which a chain is wrapped around the animal’s back leg, and shechitah is
    performed while the poor beast is suspended by one back leg. The terrified
    bellows of cattle can often be heard from outside the slaughterhouse.
    In the US, this method is used only for religious slaughter, since all other
    cattle are rendered unconscious with a bolt stunner before hoisting.
    In the US, many people mistakenly thought that the shackling and hoisting of
    live cattle was part of kosher slaughter. But during the mid-Eighties and
    early Nineties, I was hired by two companies to tear out these cruel machines and
    replace them with equipment that would hold cattle in a comfortable standing
    position for shechitah.

     

    Shamefully, as Grandin goes on to describe, there have been shameful abuses in the kosher meat industry. This has opened the door for politicians to ban shechitah while asserting that they are not antisemites.

    The ritual slaughter page on Grandin’s website is a good source on the humane issues in kosher and halal slaughter.

    I have no doubt that the main intent of the Austrian law is to force observant Muslims to register with the state. Inconveniencing Jews is a bonus for some pols – and realistically speaking, incorporating Jews helps it look even handed.

    • #35
  6. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    And just so you know who is the good guy in all of this, Russia will set you straight:

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Russia-concerned-about-military-confrontation-between-Israel-and-Iran-562914

     

    In a move showing that Putin is still a world class trollmeister:

    As the death toll rises monthly among South Africa’s Afrikaners – often horribly slaughtered and mutilated in hate-crimes – 15,000 of them are considering mass migration to Russia.

    Russia’s humanitarian absorption of migrant refugees is being weighed after a series of murders the South African government has been accused of encouraging, and that have made farming in South Africa the most deadly occupation in the world.

    South African farm killings, where victims are typically members of the country’s white, Afrikaans-speaking minority, are often extremely brutal in nature, involving prolonged periods of torture.

    The murders are little-reported even within South Africa itself — the government directed police to stop releasing information about victims’ ethnicity in 2007. “Often, they only count the farmer and not his wife and children that were also attacked or murdered,” South African missionary Charl Van Wyk told World Net Daily in an interview.

    According to Breitbart, 1,187 farmers, 490 family members, 147 farm employees, and 24 farm visitors are known to have been murdered between 1998 and the end of 2016 — although the true figure is estimated at between 3,000 and 4,000.

    • #36
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Zafar (View Comment):

    I am truly surprised that anybody is surprised. How did people think encouraging nativists in Austria (or anywhere in Europe) was going to end?

    I would also tend to blame those people who try to suppress nativists. What else would you expect when you push them underground, whack-a-mole fashion.  

    • #37
  8. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):
    Shamefully, as Grandin goes on to describe, there have been shameful abuses in the kosher meat industry. This has opened the door for politicians to ban shechitah while asserting that they are not antisemites.

    It is shameful, OTLC! But Jews can be as evil as anyone else, unfortunately.

    • #38
  9. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):
    Large scale operations with modern sanitation laws have tended to incorporate procedures like shackling and hoisting which, for unstunned animals (as required by shechitah) isn’t humane.

    Now I thought slaughtering cattle (or any animal) under duress ruined the meat due to excessive adrenaline . . .

    • #39
  10. PHenry Inactive
    PHenry
    @PHenry

    Make no mistake, this is only the first step in the animal rights movements intent to ban all consumption of meat.  

    Is it more cruel to bleed out an animal by slitting it’s throat than to slam a bolt in to its brain?  I doubt it, but that is the basis for all this.  But even if they get what they want and force all slaughter to be done their way, they will soon declare that method cruel as well. Because, lets face it, they consider meat to be murder and thus all farming and slaughter involved in the consumption of meat to be cruel. 

    • #40
  11. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    The problem of a major party making room for open antisemitism, is much closer to home, already.

    Omar’s hostility raises a question for prominent Minnesota Democrats. Her remarks should be beyond the pale. Under comparable circumstances, prominent Republicans would be called to account for the statements of one of their party’s members. So I’ve asked some leading Democrats: Is it acceptable for a Democratic congressional candidate to characterize Israel as a racist regime? I wrote to Governor Mark Dayton, who has endorsed Omar. I wrote to Senator Amy Klobuchar, Senator Tina Smith, DFL chairman Ken Martin, and DFL vice chairman Marge Hoffa. I wrote to Minneapolis attorney, DFL fundraising powerhouse, and former ambassador to Morocco Sam Kaplan, and to my former colleague and recent DFL chairman Brian Melendez.
    Only Senator Smith responded—sort of. First, one of her staff members accidentally replied: “This guy is a Powerline guy—not sure what responding gets us.” When I pointed out that he had sent me the message intended for someone else, he forwarded the message to Senator Smith’s reelection campaign. A campaign spokesman then advised me: “Senator Smith is not taking a position in the 5th Congressional District primary race, but believes voters in the district have several great candidates to choose from.”

    • #41
  12. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Whilst the topic is abused by a silly potentially rightwing stinker of an Austrian regional secondary politician, the underlying is actually not an issue. 

    In Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Germany as well as Austria any form of slaughtering animals without rendering them unconscious for any reasons, supposed religious ones or otherwise, is prohibited as it is considered inappropriately cruel to the creature.  Austria does, however, for a long time have certain exemptions, notably more catering to their newly imported muslim underbelly than the small and undeterred Jewish community. 

    Without bothering you with too many details to start with, the cultural and butchery conundrum has been there for hundreds of years, started to be codified in various bodies of law and, as everything grabbed for, was then easily abused by fascists in the early 1930s.

    Fortunately, there is strenuously intense veterinary research into the matter in the aforementioned countries. The Swiss took the biscuit in this regard. The underlying controversy is not anti-Semitic, the arguments made against Schechita or שחט šacḥaṭ are actually quite valid, because the technique requires both skill and zero tolerance for technical mistakes in any event, though non biased boring research, practical experience (yes, please ask) and testing increasingly shows that beyond obvious signs one may individually experience there is a measurable severe, undue neural impact on the animal.  

    Yes, we can argue to tidbits as to whether the religious imperative requires to rate the desire to not have blood infest your diet as per whatever scroll may tell you higher than the animal’s pain impact whilst being killed for being eaten.  But it does not matter as to current legal issue: the selected aforementioned eight sovereign countries in continuation of longstanding traditions have outruled this practice in various forms. As an example, Germany prohibits it but allows the import of kosher and halal butchered animals. So, there is no shortage of availability of product. However, you must not kill the animal in that form within the border of the country. We still respect borders, culture, and law here, I take it.

    P.S.: The gratuitous swipe at German student fraternities across the German speaking countries is a tad overdrawn and seems uninformed, beyond their historic and cultural dimension across the German speaking nations and unhelpful.  The student fraternities in general do not resemble the few fascist outfits ultimately referred to in regard to member fo the current Austrian coalition government.   

      

     

    • #42
  13. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    I don’t get why they object to kosher slaughter? Isn’t it more humane to kill the animal in one go?

    The modern industry standard for humane slaughter is pre-slaughter stunning, which requires technology people in biblical times simply did not have.

    Kosher slaughter is so obviously not intended to be cruel to animals that it seems strange to object to it as a cruel practice, even if other ways do cause less suffering. To us, it seems strange to object to a practice as “cruelty” when it’s clearly not going out of its way to be cruel. Europeans seem to be a little different in this respect. For example, consider the naming laws surrounding children.

    When you think about it, how can we do anything but guess about what an animal experiences? Torturing an animal before killing it is clearly out of bounds, but if the stunning technique is not done properly, the animal still suffers.

    We can to a large extent. There is sufficient science.

    • #43
  14. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn: Observant Jews, however, along with other requirements, require that the animal be killed in one blow, to prevent suffering.

    Not quite. For livestock, kosher slaughter (shechitah) involves a single, uninterrupted, unhesitating cut using a very sharp knife with a smooth edge. The cut must simultaneously sever the esophagus, trachea, carotid arteries and jugular veins.

    This is best done with the animal standing, and (except for when the Temple stood) generally not done on a mass scale. Large scale operations with modern sanitation laws have tended to incorporate procedures like shackling and hoisting which, for unstunned animals (as required by shechitah) isn’t humane.

    Livestock expert Temple Grandin wrote (in the wake of a major scandal)

    I have worked in the beef industry for 30 years designing equipment to
    improve animal welfare. In North America half of the non-kosher cattle are handled
    in equipment I designed. I have also designed equipment for holding cattle and
    calves for shechitah. I have found that the ancient method of kosher slaughter
    can be the most humane, or terribly cruel, depending on the shochet’s skill
    and the methods used.
    The laws of kashrut dictate that the cattle be slaughtered with a sharp
    knife, causing almost instantaneous death with no pain. Unfortunately, these laws
    do not directly address modern restraining methods that they could hardly have
    envisioned.
    The result is that some kosher slaughterhouses employ a shackle-and-hoist
    system in which a chain is wrapped around the animal’s back leg, and shechitah is
    performed while the poor beast is suspended by one back leg. The terrified
    bellows of cattle can often be heard from outside the slaughterhouse.
    In the US, this method is used only for religious slaughter, since all other
    cattle are rendered unconscious with a bolt stunner before hoisting.
    In the US, many people mistakenly thought that the shackling and hoisting of
    live cattle was part of kosher slaughter. But during the mid-Eighties and
    early Nineties, I was hired by two companies to tear out these cruel machines and
    replace them with equipment that would hold cattle in a comfortable standing
    position for shechitah.

    Shamefully, as Grandin goes on to describe, there have been shameful abuses in the kosher meat industry. This has opened the door for politicians to ban shechitah while asserting that they are not antisemites.

    The ritual slaughter page on Grandin’s website is a good source on the humane issues in kosher and halal slaughter.

    I have no doubt that the main intent of the Austrian law is to force observant Muslims to register with the state. Inconveniencing Jews is a bonus for some pols – and realistically speaking, incorporating Jews helps it look even handed.

    As it is otherwise fully down to the individual’s skill, technique and daily form, just like you stated, wherever the proponents of this religiously motivated form of killing the animal for food have not been in the majority stunning the animal has been the key to solving the issue since the middle ages and became culturally preferable.

     

    • #44
  15. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Stad (View Comment):

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):
    Large scale operations with modern sanitation laws have tended to incorporate procedures like shackling and hoisting which, for unstunned animals (as required by shechitah) isn’t humane.

    Now I thought slaughtering cattle (or any animal) under duress ruined the meat due to excessive adrenaline . . .

    That’s why stunning the animal works. Known to many cultures including e.g. Germans since at least the early middle ages.

     

    • #45
  16. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    I don’t get why they object to kosher slaughter? Isn’t it more humane to kill the animal in one go?

    Kosher slaughtering does not do that. Stun the animal and then kill it. That does it. Notably, the traditional Christian-European way of killing the animal post stun still kills it with one bolt or cut.   

    • #46
  17. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Given the past millennium of European history, this comes to mind:

    • #47
  18. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    However, you must not kill the animal in that form within the border of the country. We still respect borders, culture, and law here, I take it.

    We respect fundamental rights like religious liberty a whole lot more.  Now, what actual rights (which by definition preclude animal ‘rights’) or compelling state interests necessitate that kosher butchers be outlawed?

    • #48
  19. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    The problem of a major party making room for open antisemitism, is much closer to home, already.

    Omar’s hostility raises a question for prominent Minnesota Democrats. Her remarks should be beyond the pale. Under comparable circumstances, prominent Republicans would be called to account for the statements of one of their party’s members. So I’ve asked some leading Democrats: Is it acceptable for a Democratic congressional candidate to characterize Israel as a racist regime? I wrote to Governor Mark Dayton, who has endorsed Omar. I wrote to Senator Amy Klobuchar, Senator Tina Smith, DFL chairman Ken Martin, and DFL vice chairman Marge Hoffa. I wrote to Minneapolis attorney, DFL fundraising powerhouse, and former ambassador to Morocco Sam Kaplan, and to my former colleague and recent DFL chairman Brian Melendez.
    Only Senator Smith responded—sort of. First, one of her staff members accidentally replied: “This guy is a Powerline guy—not sure what responding gets us.” When I pointed out that he had sent me the message intended for someone else, he forwarded the message to Senator Smith’s reelection campaign. A campaign spokesman then advised me: “Senator Smith is not taking a position in the 5th Congressional District primary race, but believes voters in the district have several great candidates to choose from.”

    I wonder if @jameslileks is aware of this person?

    • #49
  20. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):
    The student fraternities in general do not resemble the few fascist outfits ultimately referred to in regard to member fo the current Austrian coalition government.

    Point taken re bringing them up in relation to the government. Regarding your points on ritual slaughtering within Judaism without stunning, I’ll have to investigate this further.

    • #50
  21. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    We can to a large extent. There is sufficient science.

    Which says that shechitah, done properly is humane. And says that stunning, done improperly, is not. There are many critical processes in society which are good if done well and bad if not. The critical difference between humane and inhumane has to do with how the animals are handled and moved through the process, and if the slaughter is done standing, how they are restrained.

    Here is a link to highly relevant articles from Temple Grandin a veterinarian widely recognized as an expert in this.

     

     

    • #51
  22. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Here’s my perspective:

    First off, slaughter is clearly far preferable than a death in the wild by exposure, predators, or disease.If we did not raise and slaughter meat, there would be far fewer animals in the world (see the shortage in endangered species, and massive numbers of pigs and chickens and cows). So slaughtering meat means more animals – whether the manner of slaughter is via the knife or stunning.

    Slaughter is not designed to increase cruelty. Indeed, Jewish law considers “tearing the limb from a living animal” to be a noachide stricture, one of the seven sins that every person (not just Jews) is forbidden from doing.

    In the specific question, I would automatically defer to libertarian principles: if the thing in question is not clearly barbaric, then government has no role determining what should and should not be acceptable. The market – people – can choose for themselves, using the information that is freely available.

    So if you think that stunning is preferable, then you should be able to choose food butchered on that basis. If, on the other hand, you prefer a slaughtering method that conforms to your cultural or religious or other beliefs (but is, in any event, far less cruel than an animal’s death in the wild), then what business is it of the government?

     

     

    • #52
  23. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    iWe (View Comment):
    First off, slaughter is clearly far preferable than a death in the wild by exposure, predators, or disease.

    So true.  That’s why these idiots who free minks from fur farms are sentencing them to a much crueler death on the outside than they would have had on the inside.

    • #53
  24. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    The Jewish population of Austria today: <15,000 (<0.2 % of the total population; 100 years ago, it was ~300,000 and ~4.5%)

    The Muslim population of Austria today: > 700,000 (~ 8% of the total population – up from 0.3% in less than 50 years.)

    The primary purpose seems to be the official registration of halal consumers as a proxy for the registration of sharia compliant Muslims – with that illiberal measure justified by opposition to cruelty to animals. Jews must be included because of the similarities between the two methods of slaughter.

    That’s not to say that Jews won’t be collateral damage of any measures the Austrian government takes against Muslims, or that there are no antisemitic Austrians who will be happy that Jews are once again made to feel unwelcome, or that the whole thing doesn’t resonate with the antisemitism that led to the murder of Austrian Jewry.

    • #54
  25. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    By the way, hunting is legal in Austria. Certainly hunting is less “humane” than either forms of slaughter.

     

    • #55
  26. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    My thanks to @iwe and @ontheleftcoast for articulating so well the information that I couldn’t do well. Thanks to both of you for providing a broad and thoughtful perspective.

    • #56
  27. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    The problem of a major party making room for open antisemitism, is much closer to home, already.

    Omar’s hostility raises a question for prominent Minnesota Democrats. Her remarks should be beyond the pale. Under comparable circumstances, prominent Republicans would be called to account for the statements of one of their party’s members. So I’ve asked some leading Democrats: Is it acceptable for a Democratic congressional candidate to characterize Israel as a racist regime? I wrote to Governor Mark Dayton, who has endorsed Omar. I wrote to Senator Amy Klobuchar, Senator Tina Smith, DFL chairman Ken Martin, and DFL vice chairman Marge Hoffa. I wrote to Minneapolis attorney, DFL fundraising powerhouse, and former ambassador to Morocco Sam Kaplan, and to my former colleague and recent DFL chairman Brian Melendez.
    Only Senator Smith responded—sort of. First, one of her staff members accidentally replied: “This guy is a Powerline guy—not sure what responding gets us.” When I pointed out that he had sent me the message intended for someone else, he forwarded the message to Senator Smith’s reelection campaign. A campaign spokesman then advised me: “Senator Smith is not taking a position in the 5th Congressional District primary race, but believes voters in the district have several great candidates to choose from.”

    I wonder if @jameslileks is aware of this person?

    Not sure, but the Power Line team has been all over the story. Perhaps they will do an episode of the Power Line Blog podcast on the subject. 

    • #57
  28. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    iWe (View Comment):
    First off, slaughter is clearly far preferable than a death in the wild by exposure, predators, or disease

    I agree with most of what you wrote, except for this sentence. I’m applying this to my own death, of course.   

    It hasn’t kept me from slaughtering chickens in our back yard, and from trying to keep predators from getting to them first. But this preference is for my benefit, and not the chickens’.

     

    • #58
  29. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    We can to a large extent. There is sufficient science.

    Which says that shechitah, done properly is humane. And says that stunning, done improperly, is not. There are many critical processes in society which are good if done well and bad if not. The critical difference between humane and inhumane has to do with how the animals are handled and moved through the process, and if the slaughter is done standing, how they are restrained.

    Here is a link to highly relevant articles from Temple Grandin a veterinarian widely recognized as an expert in this.

     

    No, Sir. Just wrong, pursue some boring neural scientists and look at the tests (not that those are very appetising, ‘humane’ whatever that is in this context, or simply adequate to a living being).

    ‘Done properly.’ Q.E.D.  The method is difficult, delicate to execute, prone to risking torturous impact on an animal which can simply be stunned and killed.   

    See: Dtsch Tierarztl Wochenschr. 1978 Feb 5;85(2):62-6.
    [Objectivization of pain and consciousness in the conventional (dart-gun anesthesia) as well as in ritual (kosher incision) slaughter of sheep and calf].[Article in German]
    Schulze W, Schultze-Petzold H, Hazem AS, Gross R.

    If your German works have a look at the results of the Bundesamt für Lebensmittelsicherheit und Veterinärwesen of the oldest, continuously free democratic republic on the planet: Switzerland.  https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/de/home.html.Pursuant to a review in 2001 in which the corneal reflex being one solid test criteria could not be found lacking in many test animals killed as per Jewish and Muslim custom in a large butchery in Besancon they continued to text and research the matter further.   The technicality is a non-topic. Since 2001 neuroscience has advanced massively. Pain can be measured better and more accurately in humans and animals today. Why expose animals to excess extra pain? A bolt shot to stun them sorts the issue. Just because some tribes in long forgotten times before the Romans and then again in early medieval times in the same hot, arid, regions where and when some things simply were neither known nor understood about food, animals, biology, hygiene etc. stipulated some rules and customs which we can now show that they do not apply or matter, we do not have to create pain gratuitously to the animals we anyway consume.   

    • #59
  30. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):
    Just because some tribes in long forgotten times before the Romans and then again in early medieval times in the same hot, arid, regions where and when some things simply were neither known nor understood about food, animals, biology, hygiene etc. stipulated some rules and customs which we can now show that they do not apply or matter, we do not have to create pain gratuitously to the animals we anyway consume.

    I suspect you are not a religious man, @balticsnowtiger, since you show such disdain for guidance that was established not just as “rules or customs,” but because they were considered holy. So to say they do not matter or apply is your right, but the acts were/are not done gratuitously. Please offer your disrespect elsewhere.

    • #60
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