Trump Went Easy on Putin? Get a Load of Churchill on Stalin

 

Winston Churchill to the House of Commons in 1945, shortly after returning from the Yalta Conference:

The impression I brought back from the Crimea is that Marshal Stalin and the Soviet leaders wish to live in honourable friendship and equality with the Western democracies.  I feel also that their word is their bond.  I know of no Government which stands to its obligations…more solidly than the Russian Soviet Government.  I decline absolutely to embark here on a discussion about Russian good faith.

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  1. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    I just watched the whole thing on CSPAN: https://www.c-span.org/video/?448421-1/presidents-trump-putin-reject-2016-election-campaign-collusion

    What a load of hype over nothing. Aside from his typical illiteracy in recalling the full details of any situation, Trump was cordial with another head of state, and said the investigation into his campaign is B.S. Stuff he always does and says. Anyone outraged by this likely was outraged prior to it and would’ve been outraged by anything said during the presser. I don’t get the fuss.

    “Cordial” doesn’t really sum it up.  He blamed us (moral equivalency) for problems in the relationship and questioned the capabilities of intelligence services whose help he needs.  I agree the over-the-top condemnations are tiresome, but his remarks weren’t smart.

    • #211
  2. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Larry3435 (View Comment):
    That said, I have to admit that I suspect that there was a disgruntled Bernie-boy somewhere in the DNC who helped the Russians out in this process. The volume of information stolen seems to be beyond the scope of what could have been accomplished solely through a remote hack. If you don’t believe me, try dowloading the entire contents of a server from a remote location sometime. Let me know how many weeks it takes you.

    The FBI never actually analyzed the server, did they?

    They analyzed an image of the server which is how one performs these kinds of IT investigations. The actual physical server is uneccesary as its not a physical intrusion.

    Source link?

    Besides my own extensive experience in IT and protecting confidential information there’s this:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/trumps-missing-dnc-server-is-neither-missing-nor-a-server

    Isn’t this a matter of confusing Hillary’s server with the DNC’s IT operation?  Haven’t I read that the so-called “bathroom server” was never turned over to the FBI?

    • #212
  3. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    CarolJoy (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):
    Jamie Lockett

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    ….

    Not playing your game.

    As far as interfering with elections, we did worse than that not too long ago – we instituted a coup that overthrew the duly elected President of the Ukraine. Why? In large part because he didn’t want any part of dealing with the “benefits” of the International Monetary Fund. And also as the Ukraine sits atop a very large shale oil deposit.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/28/cheering-a-democratic-coup-in-ukraine-2/

    Robert Parry, in my mind one of the finest indie reporters out there (His words live on – he died in Dec 2017.)
    regarding the USA’s overthrow of a democratically elected presidnet in the Ukraine:
    The issue at hand was whether Yanukovych should accept a closer relationship with the European Union, which was demanding substantial economic “reforms,” including an austerity plan dictated by the International Monetary Fund. Yanukovych balked at the harsh terms and turned to Ukraine’s neighbor Russia, which was offering a $15 billion loan and was keeping Ukraine’s economy afloat with discounted natural gas.

    …people can disagree about whether the EU was driving too hard a bargain or whether Ukraine should undertake such painful economic “reforms” or how Yanukovych should have balanced the interests of his divided country, with the east dominated by ethnic Russians and the west leaning toward Europe.

    But protesters from western Ukraine, including far-right nationalists, sought to turn this policy dispute into a means for overthrowing an elected government. Police efforts to quell disturbances turned violent, with police – not the only culprits. Police faced armed neo-Nazi storm troopers who attacked with firebombs and other weapons.

    Though the U.S. news media showed scenes of violent melees, the U.S. press universally blamed Yanukovych and took SNIP pleasure as his elected government collapsed and was replaced by thuggish right-wing militias “guarding” government buildings.

    With Yanukovych and supporters fleeing for their lives, the opposition parties seized control of parliament and began passing draconian new laws often unanimously, as US-supported neo-Nazi thugs patrolled the scene. Amazingly, the U.S. news media treated all this as uplifting, a popular uprising against a tyrant, not a case of a coup government operating in collusion with violent extremists.

    Ukraine is a divided country in which the Putin regime has sewn discord, interfered in and invaded. Yanukovych is not a good example in your context. His previous elections were rigged, the ‘Party of the Regions’ a monstrous organisation. His government aligned itself with Russian security interests, its own oligarchy simply reallocated ownership and control over industrial assets from the previous (other side) oligarchy, employed its tax police to hunt down adversaries and punish the opposition, and institutionalised a system of money laundering and skimming across the board from business transactions to an extent which won him a galleon. In his park.

    • #213
  4. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    That might be a bit grand even for him. His goal is to destroy a united democratic order and restore 19th century politics back to Europe. I don’t think this will allow him to dominate all of Europe, but it certainly will increase his dominance over Eastern Europe and will also help to remove any external pressure to liberalize. The true danger of all of this is that 19th Century European politics lead to countless wars, and helped breed some of the most pernicious ideologies of human history

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I think the European wars of the 19th century killed a lot fewer people (both absolute and percentage-wise) than the wars of the 20th century.

     

    Yep. Higher urban densities coupled with advanced technology allowing for both regular warfare and cruelty to take a significantly worse effect. 

    • #214
  5. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Larry3435 (View Comment):
    That said, I have to admit that I suspect that there was a disgruntled Bernie-boy somewhere in the DNC who helped the Russians out in this process. The volume of information stolen seems to be beyond the scope of what could have been accomplished solely through a remote hack. If you don’t believe me, try dowloading the entire contents of a server from a remote location sometime. Let me know how many weeks it takes you.

    The FBI never actually analyzed the server, did they?

    They analyzed an image of the server which is how one performs these kinds of IT investigations. The actual physical server is uneccesary as its not a physical intrusion.

    Source link?

    Besides my own extensive experience in IT and protecting confidential information there’s this:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/trumps-missing-dnc-server-is-neither-missing-nor-a-server

    Isn’t this a matter of confusing Hillary’s server with the DNC’s IT operation? Haven’t I read that the so-called “bathroom server” was never turned over to the FBI?

    It’s a little of that, it’s a little of not understanding how modern IT infrastructure works, its a little self serving conspiracy mongering. 

    • #215
  6. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    I just watched the whole thing on CSPAN: https://www.c-span.org/video/?448421-1/presidents-trump-putin-reject-2016-election-campaign-collusion

    What a load of hype over nothing. Aside from his typical illiteracy in recalling the full details of any situation, Trump was cordial with another head of state, and said the investigation into his campaign is B.S. Stuff he always does and says. Anyone outraged by this likely was outraged prior to it and would’ve been outraged by anything said during the presser. I don’t get the fuss.

    Are you saying this was manufactured outrage? Again?

    • #216
  7. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    That might be a bit grand even for him. His goal is to destroy a united democratic order and restore 19th century politics back to Europe. I don’t think this will allow him to dominate all of Europe, but it certainly will increase his dominance over Eastern Europe and will also help to remove any external pressure to liberalize. The true danger of all of this is that 19th Century European politics lead to countless wars, and helped breed some of the most pernicious ideologies of human history

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I think the European wars of the 19th century killed a lot fewer people (both absolute and percentage-wise) than the wars of the 20th century.

    WWI was clearly a continuation of 19th century European politics, and so arguably was WWII though I think by that point the ideological turmoil was creating a new dynamic in geopolitics, dividing the world up in to totalitarian and liberal camps destined to square off against each other. 

    • #217
  8. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Hang On (View Comment):
    North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Georgia is a bit far away, isn’t it? It’s a great deal for Georgia. Not for us. I don’t blame Georgia. Be great if they would have someone else fight their wars for them and could do whatever they want to and have Uncle Sam the patsy cover for them. So no, I certainly don’t consider Georgia an ally. Nor one worth having.

    I am sure Czechoslovakia, 1938, would have warmed to your attitude as well.  Sure let aggressive powers that are currently weak grow stronger through unopposed conquest.  That never leads to more trouble.  Let the little countries sort things out for the themselves.  There is certainly never a price to paid for letting a bad actor get away with abusing weaker countries on their border. 

    Georgia has never asked us to fight wars for them.  They have fought for us in our wars.  They think an alliance with America will bring peace not war.    An not an ally nor one worth having good lord.

    Hang On (View Comment):
    And do you mean the treaty that Russia also signed with Ukraine? Then they must be an ally too by your logic. Ukraine’s recent history is far more complicated than that. 

    Why do you want us to join Russia in breaking our commitments and not backing our word?  Why do you want Russia to grow stronger and more confident to what benefit does having a more aggressive Russia on Europe’s doorstep help us?  It is better to stop the possibility of a big war instead of ignoring the signs of one growing until it is too late.

    • #218
  9. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    CarolJoy (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):
    Jamie Lockett

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    ….

    Ukraine is a divided country in which the Putin regime has sewn discord, interfered in and invaded. Yanukovych is not a good example in your context. His previous elections were rigged, the ‘Party of the Regions’ a monstrous organisation. His government aligned itself with Russian security interests, its own oligarchy simply reallocated ownership and control over industrial assets from the previous (other side) oligarchy, employed its tax police to hunt down adversaries and punish the opposition, and institutionalised a system of money laundering and skimming across the board from business transactions to an extent which won him a galleon. In his park.

    This post is good and barely scratches the surface of what was wrong with the Ukrainian puppet government overthrown by the people. 

    • #219
  10. Dorrk Inactive
    Dorrk
    @Dorrk

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    I just watched the whole thing on CSPAN: https://www.c-span.org/video/?448421-1/presidents-trump-putin-reject-2016-election-campaign-collusion

    What a load of hype over nothing. Aside from his typical illiteracy in recalling the full details of any situation, Trump was cordial with another head of state, and said the investigation into his campaign is B.S. Stuff he always does and says. Anyone outraged by this likely was outraged prior to it and would’ve been outraged by anything said during the presser. I don’t get the fuss.

    “Cordial” doesn’t really sum it up. He blamed us (moral equivalency) for problems in the relationship and questioned the capabilities of intelligence services whose help he needs. I agree the over-the-top condemnations are tiresome, but his remarks weren’t smart.

    Part of Trump’s appeal is that he doesn’t speak “politics.” B.Clinton or Obama might have obfuscated their way out of addressing any of it. That’s not in Trump’s skillset.

    Our intelligence agencies are hostile towards the President, and he responds in-kind. I see this as more of a problem with the leadership of the agencies than with the president (who is hamstrung when it comes to reforming them). With them and the media trying to create or exacerbate conflicts with Russia, I think Trump did a typically clumsy but adequate-for-him job of navigating between three hostile entities. Ironically, Putin is currently outwardly the friendliest of the three. It’s a situation in which any answer from Trump would’ve been seized upon by critics. The smartest thing would’ve been not to take questions, but we’re not in “smartest thing” territory right now.

    • #220
  11. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    I just watched the whole thing on CSPAN: https://www.c-span.org/video/?448421-1/presidents-trump-putin-reject-2016-election-campaign-collusion

    What a load of hype over nothing. Aside from his typical illiteracy in recalling the full details of any situation, Trump was cordial with another head of state, and said the investigation into his campaign is B.S. Stuff he always does and says. Anyone outraged by this likely was outraged prior to it and would’ve been outraged by anything said during the presser. I don’t get the fuss.

    “Cordial” doesn’t really sum it up. He blamed us (moral equivalency) for problems in the relationship and questioned the capabilities of intelligence services whose help he needs. I agree the over-the-top condemnations are tiresome, but his remarks weren’t smart.

    Part of Trump’s appeal is that he doesn’t speak “politics.” B.Clinton or Obama might have obfuscated their way out of addressing any of it. That’s not in Trump’s skillset.

    Our intelligence agencies are hostile towards the President, and he responds in-kind. I see this as more of a problem with the leadership of the agencies than with the president (who is hamstrung when it comes to reforming them). With them and the media trying to create or exacerbate conflicts with Russia, I think Trump did a typically clumsy but adequate-for-him job of navigating between three hostile entities. Ironically, Putin is currently outwardly the friendliest of the three. It’s a situation in which any answer from Trump would’ve been seized upon by critics. The smartest thing would’ve been not to take questions, but we’re not in “smartest thing” territory right now.

    My perspective is that it’s simply dumb to throw our intelligence agencies under the bus in an ad hoc setting.  We don’t even need to debate the degree to which they are, or are not, “hostile” to question the wisdom of Trump’s remarks in a world where the country and Trump need their cooperation going forward.  These issues can and should be addressed in-house or on the Hill.  Some of the publicized issues are just the tip of the intelligence iceberg, and there is absolutely no indication that newly-appointed Director Haspel–a lifer who likely knows all of the nooks and crannies at Langley–bears Trump any ill will.  But now she has to deal with the fallout.

     

    • #221
  12. Goldwaterwoman Thatcher
    Goldwaterwoman
    @goldwaterwoman

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    Our Intelligence services over the last 40 years or so missed the Iranian Revolution, the fall of the Soviet Union, 9/11 and various other Terrorist attacks, (the lack of) WMD’s in Iraq, and a host of other issues.

    9/11 and lack of WMD’s in Iraq cost thousands of American lives and were clearly the fault of bad intelligence. 

    • #222
  13. Dorrk Inactive
    Dorrk
    @Dorrk

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Dorrk (View Comment):

    Part of Trump’s appeal is that he doesn’t speak “politics.” B.Clinton or Obama might have obfuscated their way out of addressing any of it. That’s not in Trump’s skillset.

    Our intelligence agencies are hostile towards the President, and he responds in-kind. I see this as more of a problem with the leadership of the agencies than with the president (who is hamstrung when it comes to reforming them). With them and the media trying to create or exacerbate conflicts with Russia, I think Trump did a typically clumsy but adequate-for-him job of navigating between three hostile entities. Ironically, Putin is currently outwardly the friendliest of the three. It’s a situation in which any answer from Trump would’ve been seized upon by critics. The smartest thing would’ve been not to take questions, but we’re not in “smartest thing” territory right now.

    My perspective is that it’s simply dumb to throw our intelligence agencies under the bus in an ad hoc setting. We don’t even need to debate the degree to which they are, or are not, “hostile” to question the wisdom of Trump’s remarks in a world where the country and Trump need their cooperation going forward. These issues can and should be addressed in-house or on the Hill. Some of the publicized issues are just the tip of the intelligence iceberg, and there is absolutely no indication that newly-appointed Director Haspel–a lifer who likely knows all of the nooks and crannies at Langley–bears Trump any ill will. But now she has to deal with the fallout.

    Philsophically that makes sense, but it also pretends that we live in a world in which our country’s internal squabbling is not all already well known around the world. A typical politician would pretend that we are unified when speaking abroad, and everyone would know they were full of it but accept it as a trope of politics. Trump has no interest in that kind of stuff (and is full of it in other ways), but I’m not sure there’s any real substance to the facade for it to matter much.

     

    • #223
  14. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Brian Wolf (View Comment):

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    CarolJoy (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):
    Jamie Lockett

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    ….

    Ukraine is a divided country in which the Putin regime has sewn discord, interfered in and invaded. Yanukovych is not a good example in your context. His previous elections were rigged, the ‘Party of the Regions’ a monstrous organisation. His government aligned itself with Russian security interests, its own oligarchy simply reallocated ownership and control over industrial assets from the previous (other side) oligarchy, employed its tax police to hunt down adversaries and punish the opposition, and institutionalised a system of money laundering and skimming across the board from business transactions to an extent which won him a galleon. In his park.

    This post is good and barely scratches the surface of what was wrong with the Ukrainian puppet government overthrown by the people.

    Maybe we should collate some thoughts on a series of more detailed accounts in regard to what happened lest we forget or allow a reinterpretation of what actually occurred.

    • #224
  15. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    #MRGA!

    • #225
  16. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):
    (Ugh, how I have the balls to say that I’ll never know…sorry Peter)

    And after those nice things he said about you a few weeks ago.  Maybe you eed to have a sit down and re-examine your life.  ;-)

    • #226
  17. Al Sparks Coolidge
    Al Sparks
    @AlSparks

    There’s a poll out saying Republicans overwhelmingly support Trump regarding the Helsinki press conference.  This was posted on National Review, but it’s a CBS poll.

    • #227
  18. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    Brian Wolf (View Comment):

    BalticSnowTiger (View Comment):

    CarolJoy (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):
    Jamie Lockett

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    ….

    Ukraine is a divided country in which the Putin regime has sewn discord, interfered in and invaded. Yanukovych is not a good example in your context. His previous elections were rigged, the ‘Party of the Regions’ a monstrous organisation. His government aligned itself with Russian security interests, its own oligarchy simply reallocated ownership and control over industrial assets from the previous (other side) oligarchy, employed its tax police to hunt down adversaries and punish the opposition, and institutionalised a system of money laundering and skimming across the board from business transactions to an extent which won him a galleon. In his park.

    This post is good and barely scratches the surface of what was wrong with the Ukrainian puppet government overthrown by the people.

    Maybe we should collate some thoughts on a series of more detailed accounts in regard to what happened lest we forget or allow a reinterpretation of what actually occurred.

    I have been thinking about such a post but have not had the time to fully research and put it together yet.  But I think it is necessary.

    • #228
  19. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Al Sparks (View Comment):

    There’s a poll out saying Republicans overwhelmingly support Trump regarding the Helsinki press conference. This was posted on National Review, but it’s a CBS poll.

    Query whether 68-32 in his own party is all that impressive.

    • #229
  20. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Al Sparks (View Comment):

    There’s a poll out saying Republicans overwhelmingly support Trump regarding the Helsinki press conference. This was posted on National Review, but it’s a CBS poll.

    Query whether 68-32 in his own party is all that impressive.

    Also there’s the whole notion that Republicans see such polls as referendums on Trump as a whole and they generally side with him over the media asking the question. 

    • #230
  21. Brian Wolf Inactive
    Brian Wolf
    @BrianWolf

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Al Sparks (View Comment):

    There’s a poll out saying Republicans overwhelmingly support Trump regarding the Helsinki press conference. This was posted on National Review, but it’s a CBS poll.

    Query whether 68-32 in his own party is all that impressive.

    Also there’s the whole notion that Republicans see such polls as referendums on Trump as a whole and they generally side with him over the media asking the question.

    Even I would be tempted to treat such poll questions as asking me if  I supported the Democrats or Trump and tend to give a pro-Trump answer.  If I new the poll was for internal Republican use only I would much more willing to give a full and honest opinion.

    The Left is so over the top crazy in so many ways I find it hard to give them anything.  I mainly want Trump to do better at beating them then he is.  His strategy often seems to me to just ignore his mistakes and troll the left hoping the make an even bigger mistake.  I hate hoping the bad guys make mistakes.  I want to beat them whether they make big mistakes or not. 

    It is true the Trump has been very fortunate in his enemies but fortune is a tricky mistress…

    • #231
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