Hard Times Create Strong Men…

 

I saw this on Facebook this morning. I thought it might be oversimplified or exaggerated — I went to ask a Roman what he thought, but I couldn’t find any.  So I’ll ask my friends on Ricochet — do you think this is true? If so, is it inevitable? How can this be avoided?

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  1. Misthiocracy, Joke Pending Member
    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending
    @Misthiocracy

    Jim Beck (View Comment):
    For many societies a war in which there is an existential threat is often the source for great social cohesion, for England the Great War was almost the final blow.

    Well, that’s just the thing.  Many people were (and remain today) unconvinced that the Central Powers did represent an existential threat to the United Kingdom.

    Perhaps the argument can be made that an unnecessary war (or, at least, a war that is perceived as unnecessary) is often the source for great social disruption.

     

    • #61
  2. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Afternoon Mist,

    My Victorian go to is Gertrude Himmelfarb, it is from her book “Poverty and Campassion”.  The work of Charles Booth and others provides a block by block account of London around 1900, Himmelfarb’s second chapter covers Booth’s work and is titled Life and Labour of the People in London.

    • #62
  3. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Afternoon Mist,

    My go to person on Victorian England is Gertrude Himmelfarb.  The info on London comes from her book “Poverty and Compassion”.  In the second chapter, Life and Labour of the People in London, she covers the work of Charles Booth and others who as the first demographers did a block by block analysis of London, especially the East End.

    • #63
  4. AltarGirl Inactive
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):
    The migration west would be an excellent example of non-government hard times building strong men, but I think war is a pretty consistent mode to work off of in context of history.

    I dunno.

    a) A whole lot of land virtually free for the taking and not enough people to give it to could be described as pretty good times.

    b) There was a whack-ton of government intervention in the settlement of the West. It wasn’t NGOs that got the Indians off the land.

    Really? I would think building a home from scratch constitutes some “hard time”. And the government isn’t always around. And sometimes famine or flood leaves you without food until the next train comes in from the east.

    I dont know… seems like hard living to me.

     

    Edited to add: these people perhaps experienced ultimate freedom – more so than the east did. Most colonies had a present government in place when they first arrived, but the west was unlimited for the most part.

    But also part of that freedom was the ability to succeed on one’s own merits, depending solely on God and self. They were willing to go without in order to make what they did get worth it.

    • #64
  5. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Afternoon Mist,

    Sorry about the double post.  Concerning WWI, the Great War is a tragic confusion, the staggering losses, the men just running into machine gun fire, the delusion that it would be a quick war all make generalizations hard.  However the men going into WWI did not debate whether they would die for God or country,  one thing that is emblematic of the Victorian time is that even if one doubted in God or Victorian morality one’s sense of duty dominated and directed one’s choices.

    • #65
  6. Misthiocracy, Joke Pending Member
    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending
    @Misthiocracy

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):
    “I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.” – John Adams.

    But then a lot of people decide that they are painters, poets, musicians, etc, who have little if any talent for those fields.

    “Artistic talent” is relative.  In 1800 America, an artist/craftsman could be the equivalent of a low-level graphic designer today.  Not a world class celebrity artist, to be sure, but still making a living creating decorative pieces for people’s homes.

    • #66
  7. Misthiocracy, Joke Pending Member
    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending
    @Misthiocracy

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):
    The migration west would be an excellent example of non-government hard times building strong men, but I think war is a pretty consistent mode to work off of in context of history.

    I dunno.

    a) A whole lot of land virtually free for the taking and not enough people to give it to could be described as pretty good times.

    b) There was a whack-ton of government intervention in the settlement of the West. It wasn’t NGOs that got the Indians off the land.

    Really? I would think building a home from scratch constitutes some “hard time”. And the government isn’t always around. And sometimes famine or flood leaves you without food until the next train comes in from the east.

    I dont know… seems like hard living to me.

    Edited to add: these people perhaps experienced ultimate freedom – more so than the east did. Most colonies had a present government in place when they first arrived, but the west was unlimited for the most part.

    But also part of that freedom was the ability to succeed on one’s own merits, depending solely on God and self. They were willing to go without in order to make what they did get worth it.

    Does “hard living” equal “hard times”?

    In eras of history where everybody endured “hard living”, did they not still have “good times” distinguishable from “hard times”?

    The “seven years of plenty” that preceded the “seven years of famine” in the Book of Genesis still required hard work.

    • #67
  8. AltarGirl Inactive
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):
    The “seven years of plenty” that preceded the “seven years of famine” in the Book of Genesis still required hard work.

    I’m going to go back to my first comment on what I think builds character (strong men) – it’s being able to go without… not that it is necessarily unavailable.

    For a very poor person, that looks different than for a wealthy person. But the widow’s mite still matters.

    Hard Living and Hard Times produce similar results.

    • #68
  9. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    WI Con (View Comment):
    More federalism – 50 experiments. Let California & Illinois fail. The other 48 will work to not follow their lead.

    If the Fed doesn’t “pay” for their pensions, their old people will have to be turned into Soylent Green. 

    • #69
  10. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Except that the “strong men” of the past saddled us with their ponzi schemes, and worthless government programs. They gave us both the good times and the bad times. Plus the 60’s and 70’s were far worse a time especially the 70’s than we have today in terms of violence poverty etc. So I reject the insinuation against Millennials completely. The WWII generation affirmed and solidified the progressive welfare state in the United States, and their legal theories have done great damage to the Constitution.

    I never cease to be increasingly amazed at the stupidity of government actuarial systems, discretionary central banking, and the political choice to centralize governance and power. It’s unworkable in most places.

    The EU and the EMU are a perfect example. (To be fair, a lot of that happened undemocratically.)

    • #70
  11. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Tex929rr (View Comment):
    I guess I really don’t see the insinuation about millenials. At age 60 I see plenty of people my age and older exhibit the worst of the traits in the OP. I know that if I try to have a discussion about social security with other boomers the response is usually incoherent rage.

    Why in the hell didn’t they put hard actuarial stabilizers into that stuff? 

    Just eight years into Medicare, the Senate bipartisan-ly recognized it was a fiscal fiasco. That’s how the CBO got started. It never would’ve passed CBO scrutiny. 

     

     

    • #71
  12. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    Another point: In the second panel, one could argue that a big reason the times were good was because North America’s industrial competitors had been bombed flat, and not because the men were strong.

    On the other hand, one could counter-argue that during those good times North American industry (and, indeed, society) was being led by men who had learned how to be leaders by serving as officers in wartime.

    It’s tricky.

    (To be clear: I like the meme. I’m just sayin’ that the design isn’t unassailable. It might work better without any images.)

    The other thing is, the mistakes that caused and prolonged the depression suppressed tremendous human capital and financial capital t gains and improvements hat got unleashed at that time. It was both. 

    Then LBJ had to have “guns and butter”. Swell. 

    • #72
  13. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    AltarGirl (View Comment):
    I know there are those that don’t care for the argument of national identity, but I think the European migration will begin to look more like invasion and war before all is said and done.

    See Dr. Joseph Selarno: “Mises and nationalism”. 

    • #73
  14. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    Tex929rr (View Comment):
    I guess I really don’t see the insinuation about millenials. At age 60 I see plenty of people my age and older exhibit the worst of the traits in the OP. I know that if I try to have a discussion about social security with other boomers the response is usually incoherent rage.

    Well, the difference there is that they already paid into Social Security for their entire lives.

    Government Is How We Steal From Each Other™

    • #74
  15. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    Some other nation will inevitably pick up the mantle of capitalism, rule of law, and individual liberty we are so rapidly shedding.

    I think that the birth of America was a result of either incredible luck or divine intervention. The rebirth of such a place, in this environment, I find far from inevitable.

    The natural state of a race as vicious as humans is repression and misery. The liberty and happiness of America is a historical fluke. Could it possibly happen again? I wouldn’t bet on it.

    A bunch of very powerful political leaders would have to get together and decide that they don’t want power. It happened once, under extraordinary circumstances. I just can’t imagine that happening again.

    It will be interesting to see if the 50 guy kleptocracy known as China actually works out. The Big Brother stuff they are enacting is wild. Then throw in all their debt. They may just force it all to work.

    • #75
  16. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    What made America great is inherently replicable.

    I say it requires a certain kind of value system. A Judeo-Christian culture. Or Taoist. Discuss.

    • #76
  17. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    We’re Living in the Age of Capital Consumption 

    When capital is mentioned in the present-day political debate, the term is usually subject to a rather one-dimensional interpretation: Whether capital saved by citizens, the question of capital reserves held by pension funds, the start-up capital of young entrepreneurs or capital gains taxes on investments are discussed – in all these cases capital is equivalent to “money.” Yet capital is distinct from money, it is a largely irreversible, definite structure, composed of heterogeneous elements which can be (loosely) described as goods, knowledge, context, human beings, talents and experience. Money is “only” the simplifying aid that enables us to record the incredibly complex heterogeneous capital structure in a uniform manner. It serves as a basis for assessing the value of these diverse forms of capital.

     

    The fact that the generations currently living in our society are able to enjoy such a high standard of living is the result of decades or even centuries of both cultural and economic capital accumulation by our forebears.

    Once a stock of capital has been accumulated, it is not destined to be eternal. Capital is thoroughly transitory, it wears out, it is used up in the production process, or becomes entirely obsolete. Existing capital requires regularly recurring reinvestment, which can usually be funded directly out of the return capital generates. If reinvestment is neglected because the entire output or more is consumed, the result is capital consumption.

    It is not only the dwindling understanding of the nature of capital that leads us to consume it without being aware of it. It is also the framework of the real economy which unwittingly drives us to do so. In 1971 money was finally cut loose entirely from the gold anchor and we entered the “paper money era.” In retrospect, it has to be stated that cutting the last tie to gold was a fatal mistake.

     

    At the same time, the all-encompassing redistributive welfare state, which either directly through taxes or indirectly through the monetary system continually shifts and reallocates large amounts of capital, manages to paper over the effects of capital consumption to some extent. It remains to be seen how much longer this can continue. Once the stock of capital is depleted, the awakening will be rude.

     

    Mises.org is right about everything.

    • #77
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    George Bragues On How The Financial Markets Are Influenced By Politics

    So my thesis is that democracy, while probably the best political system relative to the alternatives, despite it being the best of the available alternatives, it does create problems in the financial markets, it does distort the ability of the financial markets to do social good, and so a lot of the problems that we have are because of the fact that the markets are operating in a democracy.

     

    I argue in the book that we now have a kind of financial market-government complex, or a bond market-government complex. The bond market has emerged as a kind of handmaiden to the welfare state, this growth of government. At a certain point, even the bond market will say ‘we can’t lend more’ and at that point politicians will appeal to the money press and they will enlist the central bank to print money, essentially, though it’s more complex how liquidity is injected into the economy, but that’s basically what happens. So essentially democracy leads to fiscal profligacy, too much spent relative to the revenues politicians are willing to collect from people. They then have to go to the bond market; public debt rises. And then to increase their options of financing this deficit that is inherent to democracy, they require control over the monetary supply.

    Mises.org is right about everything.

    Bill Whittle: Why a Flat Tax would be the End of Leftism. 10 minutes. 

     

     

    • #78
  19. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    What made America great is inherently replicable.

    I say it requires a certain kind of value system. A Judeo-Christian culture. Or Taoist. Discuss.

    It is being discussed in several threads as a result of Goldbgerg’s book, Suicide of the West.  This one is probably the longest, most in-depth one  http://ricochet.com/518256/suicide-of-the-west-ideas-are-not-enough/#comments

    I agree a common value system is needed, but I’m not convinced it needs to be Judeo-Christian.

    • #79
  20. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    A-Squared (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    What made America great is inherently replicable.

    I say it requires a certain kind of value system. A Judeo-Christian culture. Or Taoist. Discuss.

    It is being discussed in several threads as a result of Goldbgerg’s book, Suicide of the West. This one is probably the longest, most in-depth one http://ricochet.com/518256/suicide-of-the-west-ideas-are-not-enough/#comments

    I agree a common value system is needed, but I’m not convinced it needs to be Judeo-Christian.

    I know jack about this, but along these lines, some people are sort of obsessed with Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore for some reason.

    Here’s my guy lol: 

    Hans-Hermann Hoppe: Why Democracy Fails

    On this week’s episode, we feature a past talk given by Hans-Hermann Hoppe highlighting some of the key points he makes in his book Democracy: The God That Failed. The subject seems particularly topical as American elites have become increasingly comfortable dropping the façade of democracy, with the Washington establishment becoming increasingly transparent in their intentions to undercut the success of populist campaigns, such as Donald Trump’s.

    Hoppe’s lecture not only shows how democratic elections often lead to bad results, but illustrates how political democracy is often incompatible with human liberty. True democracy is instead found in the marketplace, with voluntary actors free of the threat of government force.

    10 minutes. 

    He wants to go back to a monarchy. lol 

    • #80
  21. ShawnB Inactive
    ShawnB
    @ShawnB

    Stalin was a strong man.  Hard times followed.  so it is not so simple.  Strong men still have to be “good” for good times to follow — by “good” I mean guided by morality even if imperfect. 

    • #81
  22. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Morning Umbra,

    Following that other Hoosier, The Reticulator, concerning the history of gratitude, I point to Number 11:5-6: “We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the onions, and the garlic: But now our soul is dried away; there is nothing at all beside the manna, before our eyes.”

    So from the beginning of first man, Eden was not enough and gratitude is not easily cultivated and is even harder to maintain. So Jonah says all we need is gratitude; this observation is among the least helpful observations one can make. 

    Jonah says all we need is gratitude? When and where did he say that?

     

    • #82
  23. dnewlander Inactive
    dnewlander
    @dnewlander

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    Some other nation will inevitably pick up the mantle of capitalism, rule of law, and individual liberty we are so rapidly shedding.

    I think that the birth of America was a result of either incredible luck or divine intervention. The rebirth of such a place, in this environment, I find far from inevitable.

    The natural state of a race as vicious as humans is repression and misery. The liberty and happiness of America is a historical fluke. Could it possibly happen again? I wouldn’t bet on it.

    A bunch of very powerful political leaders would have to get together and decide that they don’t want power. It happened once, under extraordinary circumstances. I just can’t imagine that happening again.

    It will be interesting to see if the 50 guy kleptocracy known as China actually works out. The Big Brother stuff they are enacting is wild. Then throw in all their debt. They may just force it all to work.

    No, they won’t. But they’ll have the military might to make it look like it does until they can ride off into the sunset.

    • #83
  24. dnewlander Inactive
    dnewlander
    @dnewlander

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Morning Umbra,

    Following that other Hoosier, The Reticulator, concerning the history of gratitude, I point to Number 11:5-6: “We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the onions, and the garlic: But now our soul is dried away; there is nothing at all beside the manna, before our eyes.”

    So from the beginning of first man, Eden was not enough and gratitude is not easily cultivated and is even harder to maintain. So Jonah says all we need is gratitude; this observation is among the least helpful observations one can make.

    Jonah says all we need is gratitude? When and where did he say that?

     

    Jonah has basically zero gratitude. I concur.

    • #84
  25. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    One problem with the meme: It would be more powerful if they’d used an example of hard times making strong men that didn’t require state intervention.

    In the first panel, the men became strong because states went to war.

    In the final panel, the times are hard because of localized economic collapse.

    So, does that mean there has to be a World War in order for the cycle to continue?

    (Note: Of the six men who raised the flag at Iwo Jima, at least three were conscripts. They were made strong against their will.)

    I think you’re missing the point.  Those men were strong without state intervention.  They just wouldn’t have won the war without being strong.  It wasn’t the war that made them strong.

    • #85
  26. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Umbra of Nex, Fractus (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat:

    I saw this on Facebook this morning. I thought it might be over-simplified or exaggerated – I went to ask a Roman what he thought, but I couldn’t find any. So I’ll ask my friends on Ricochet – do you think this is true? If so, is it inevitable? How can this be avoided?

    True? Yes. Inevitable? No.

    How do we avoid it? I think Jonah Goldberg has the right idea; gratitude is the key. It’s been said that one of the differences between Conservatives and Progressives is that Conservatives look at what came before (not to mention the rest of the world) and are grateful for how far we’ve come while Progressives look at an imagined future and are bitter that we’re not there yet. So, I guess you could say that it’s not an issue of strong men vs. weak men so much as grateful men vs. entitled men.

    I think that is a valid insight, too. 

    • #86
  27. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    If America falters and follows the path of England (which is my bet) it matters very little to the 95% of the world’s population that does not live in America.

    Whenever someone brings up the decline of the British Empire, I can’t help but wonder: Do many people think the world would be a better place if Britain had maintained her empire? If she’d chosen to use military force to stomp down the independence movements in her colonies after World War II rather than letting them go peacefully?

    I think there could have been solutions that allowed a better transition from Empire to Commonwealth while maintaining Britain’s military power. But then I blame Wilson’s crippling the British Navy for a lot of the evils that came afterward. 

    • #87
  28. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    delete

    • #88
  29. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    I think what you mean is the end of a nation doesn’t mean the end of civilization.

    I said what I meant. England, Germany, and Gaul were predominately Roman forts surrounded by barbarian tribes. With the collapse of Rome, it took a good while for things to reach a civilized place again.

    How “civilized” could they have been if they were merely Roman forts?

    Pretty freaking civilized, truth be told. Been to Carnuntum? 

    https://www.carnuntum.at/de 

    Or taken the Roman York tour? 

    https://www.yorkshiremuseum.org.uk/exhibition/roman-york-meet-the-people-of-the-empire/ 

    That Roman in-floor central heating? It’s amazing, even by today’s standards. 

    • #89
  30. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Morning Painter Jean and dnewlander,

    Jonah often has said that politics follows culture.  However Jonah has not written books on how culture is influenced, he writes about political philosophy and history.  So we should be grateful about the “miracle” of the Western world with the unique level of personal freedom and unique property ownership.  Fine, how do cultures inspire the next generation to be grateful, teach gratitude like sex ed, in school? 

    For example from 1890 until 1940 the marriage rate for blacks was higher than the marriage rate for whites, by 1965 and Moynihan 25% of black children were born out of wedlock.  Just as the economic situation for blacks was improving this disastrous destruction of the most important part of culture was beginning.  Was it economic, AFDC, or changes in minimum wage, or did the sexual revolution of the 60’s effect the black community earlier than the white, if so, why.  Politics and progressive policies may have played a part, if so, show how and show how we could use counter policies to reestablish marriage. 

    Jonah does not research cultural change, and show how government policies reflect cultural change or speed cultural change. Personal and civic responsibility may be influenced by governmental policies;\, but there are non-governmental forces which influence personal and civic responsibility, Jonah does not examine these forces.   If we are in a leaky lifeboat, we do not need a history of lifeboat design, or a lecture saying we should be grateful for lifeboats, we urgently need to know how to maintain and repair the boat we are in.  Of course Jonah is not alone in his indifference to the basics of cultural change, none of our conservative thinkers have told us how cultures have designed good lifeboats and how they preserved them.

    • #90
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