Next Month, Ireland Faces a Battle for Its Soul

 

Many on Ricochet have asked me, as Ireland’s de-facto representative on this, what happened to the Catholic church in Ireland? That would be a long, long post which would put you off reading anything of note or interest. Rather instead, I will summarise it like I do with my high school students when they finish a historical topic. Brace for impact:

1. The sex abuse crisis. Sadly, abuse of teenagers and children has always been rife in Ireland and abroad. In Ireland, the numbers are much higher than most countries. Which, of course, alcohol and the vindictive character of some Irish have had a role in creating. It’s now known here that are 1 in 12 people have been abused or assaulted sexually, the vast majority by members of their family. Unfortunately, many disgusting priests and brothers contributed to this evil. Many raped or sexually abused the most vulnerable children in their care, be it in church schools, church hospitals, orphanages, or church-related activities. Oddly, very little sexual abuse was done by religious nuns. These were primarily, as in America, committed by men on teenage boys and the number of victims runs into the tens of thousands. Worse, and this is probably the worst part, many clergy members knew about it and many in the hierarchy moved priests or brothers around, covering it up, and then forcing silence on the victims and their families. Many times the abuser would go on defiling kids across the island after he had been moved.

2. The church ran many of the educational and social services in Ireland since foundation of state in 1922. Since the early 1930s, there were Catholic whistleblowers warning about the problems with industrial schools, orphanages, and the Magdelene laundries where pregnant, unmarried woman would go to have their children. Nevertheless, their warnings were ignored. Much sex abuse occurred in these places but, even worse, much physical abuse bordering on neglect and torture took place here at a far greater level. Very few people in Ireland remember all the nice brothers and nuns. Many nuns and brothers behaved sadistically towards children. The cruelty of a minority has warped modern Ireland’s views of many brothers and nuns and did enormous damage to many charitable church activities.

3. Ireland’s mother and baby homes and Magdelene laundries were where young, unmarried, pregnant women were sent to have their child to protect the name of the family but not the welfare of the teenage girl. (Many were impregnated by relatives.) Here, many clergymen, nuns, and brothers behaved appallingly to these people and their children. The level of care was awful and, where the care was good, it was only for those women who were selling their kids abroad. In recent times in Tuam County, Galway, a mass tomb of babies was discovered of unknown quantity which has brought further disgrace on the church.

4. Very poor catechism. Many Irish people go through Catholic schooling without ever being challenged or taught what Catholics believe. They don’t know their own faith. Many times they don’t seem to care.

5 Moral deism. Many Catholics in Ireland are Catholics in name only. Included in this are Catholics who go to Mass. Ask them what they believe and I doubt they would know even the most basic dogmas of the church. Many both in and outside the church have swallowed this moral therapeutic Deism about a God who forgives us regardless of our sins and our ignoring Him and His church. This isn’t Catholic. Worse, in long run, it will destroy people’s faith as they are unprepared for the hardballs the world throws at them, so they walk away. Or their children do.

6. Uninspired leadership. Many Catholics feel under siege as they are regularly mocked and abused by the secular media and figures in entertainment in a way no other religion is. They see their values spat on, their Saviour mocked, and their religion ridiculed far beyond satire. The bishops say nothing. Instead, they allow the ignorance to continue, or worse, leak to anti-clerical newspapers for egotistical purposes.

7. The rapid economic progress in Ireland. This brought about massive changes in Ireland with more choice than ever before and more freedom. Sadly, rather than using this to pursue knowledge, many have been corrupted by it. The church provides a token voice against such abuses but man sees the money as offering something the church cannot and uses this to walk further away from the church.

8. The media and popular culture hate Christianity and Ireland’s press are no exception. They love to bash faith — especially the Christian faith. Two talentless comedians make a point on their Twitter feed of saying every time they attack Catholics that they get people asking them to attack Islam. Ironically, their cowardice is spoken in their sarcasm.

9. Catholic parents. Many parents swore before God they would raise their kids Catholic at baptism and teach them the faith and bring them to Mass. Many have not done this. Leaving their kids spiritually undone.

 

Finally some people have asked me why I remain a Catholic in so far as the above. It’s very simple. I’m a history teacher. Bad things done by vile wicked men or women don’t summarise a church which for good and evil is the one set up by Jesus Christ. After all one of the first bishops was Judas, it’s first pope a denier and it’s greatest missionary a murderer. Also being Irish Protestantism has no appeal. 

Oh and it happens to be true. Here endith the lesson

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  1. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    Paddy, to what extent is Irish faithfulness falling before the rather stunning secular success of modern Ireland in the 21st century?  Per capita GDP is headed towards $70,000, PISA scores are closer to Norway than the US, crime is nearly non-existent, and every measure of economic freedom puts Ireland at the top of the league tables.  If the state church is abusing and bullying you while educational, economic and technological success is broadly available for the first time ever, it is any surprise that the Irish are more focused on worldly pursuits?

     

    • #31
  2. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    My two best friends are Catholic, and I have to fight the urge to ask them how they still can  be, after all the church has done and  facilitated.  I totally don’t get it.  Oh, yeah, human error, human evil–but wouldn’t you expect to find less of that, not more, in a religious institution? 

    And in Ireland, with the abuses toward women you mention–they were as bad as the Taliban. @quakevoter, I’m anxiously awaiting the response to your eminently logical question! 

    • #32
  3. Paddy S Member
    Paddy S
    @PaddySiochain

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Paddy S (View Comment):
    Hitchens has no basis to talk about churches and morality given his own ignorance in praising Lenin and his terrible book on religion

    If you’d actually read “god Is Not Great” you probably would have come away not agreeing with his central thesis, but at least understanding that Hitch had a keen sense of what was moral.

    Also, he considered himself a Trotskyite and condemned what he saw in Cuba and the Soviet Union with great vigor. Too bad he didn’t do that when he was young, but he was intellectually honest enough to admit his mistake.

    Rod dreher an ex Catholic and Orthodox Christian summarises my feelings as seen below. I’ve read tracts of his book actually. I fully accept he had genuine points here and there but his book overall was historically bankrupt. 

    Anyway here’s dreher comments.

    One of Lenin’s great achievements, in my opinion, is to create a secular Russia. The power of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was an absolute warren of backwardness and evil and superstition, is probably never going to recover from what he did to it.

    This gives more detail about what Hitchens praised. Barbaric. Evil. Let me be clear: I don’t begrudge Hitchens his rejection of religion, and I don’t have the reaction I will detail now because I am a Christian, or an Orthodox Christian. My jaw hits the ground because Hitchens here is justifying the mass torture, imprisonment, and state-sponsored execution of tens of thousands, probably even more, Orthodox believers, because their faith-because the outcome was a secular Russia. That is an evil that I cannot get past, and he reveals himself to be a hypocrite, inasmuch as he (correctly) denounced the evil done to leftists by the military regime in Argentina, which was trying to get rid of communism and socialism in Argentina. So, for Hitchens, terror and state murder was good when the goal is the eradication of religion, but bad when the goal was the eradication of socialism

    • #33
  4. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Annefy (View Comment):
    Dennis Prager posited that if you were a Jew in Europe during WWII, the smart person would turn towards a Catholic for solace.

    Maybe. There were terrible exceptions.

    Archbishop Karol Kmetko was notoriously anti-semitic. In March 1942, prior to the spread of any awareness of Hitler’s policy of extermination, Rabbi Michoel Dov Ber Weissmandl of Nitra had convinced his father-in-law Rabbi Samuel David Ungar to speak to the Archbishop about stopping the deportations of Jews out of Slovakia. Kmetko was obviously privy to knowledge that both Weissmandl and Ungar were unaware. Kmetko told Ungar, “This is not merely a deportation of the Jews of Slovakia. You will not merely die of hunger and disease on account of the deportation. No. You will be killed. Young and old alike. Women and children alike. This is your Divine punishment for your having murdered Our Savior.”

    But problematic clergy isn’t a new problem, is it?

    Benygne he was, and wonder diligent,
    And in adversitee ful pacient;
    And swich he was y-preved ofte sithes.
    Ful looth were hym to cursen for his tithes,
    But rather wolde he yeven, out of doute,
    Unto his povre parisshens aboute,
    Of his offrýng and eek of his substaunce;
    He koude in litel thyng have suffisaunce.
    Wyd was his parisshe, and houses fer asonder,
    But he ne lafte nat, for reyn ne thonder,
    In siknesse nor in meschief to visíte
    The ferreste in his parisshe, muche and lite,
    Upon his feet, and in his hand a staf.
    This noble ensample to his sheep he yaf,
    That first he wroghte and afterward he taughte.
    Out of the gospel he tho wordes caughte;
    And this figure he added eek therto,
    That if gold ruste, what shal iren doo?
    For if a preest be foul, on whom we truste,
    No wonder is a lewed man to ruste;
    And shame it is, if a prest take keep,
    A shiten shepherde and a clene sheep.  

    • #34
  5. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    The single change that might have made a huge difference in this tragic story is if priests had been allowed to marry.

    Paddy S: These were primarily, as in America, committed by men on teenage boys and the number of victims runs into the tens of thousands.

    Sorry, Mike-K, can’t agree with you at all on this. As Paddy S points out, this is primarily a homosexual problem. Read the John Jay report – it’s all there.

    The bishops of the world are to blame for all of this – they still don’t get it. As after the Long Lent, this still goes on today – see Pope Francis and the Chilean abuse crisis – what action will be taken against the bishops?.

    It is disgusting. And it is good it is brought into the light.

    Paddy S: Many Irish people go through Catholic schooling without ever being challenged or taught what Catholics believe. They don’t know their own faith. Many times they don’t seem to care.

    Ireland is not alone here Paddy. Yet I think that one thing that the disastrous Pope Francis papacy has done is to alert us to this:

    14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. 15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’” (Rev 3:14-22)

    The era of the lukewarm “spirit of Vatican II church” is coming to a close. Francis has drawn the lines. May Ireland remain strong.

    The Great Amen stands at our door. Be not afraid. Hold fast to the faith. 

    • #35
  6. Mike-K Member
    Mike-K
    @

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):
    Sorry, Mike-K, can’t agree with you at all on this. As Paddy S points out, this is primarily a homosexual problem. Read the John Jay report

    Why would married priests and admitting heterosexual men to seminaries not be a help ? You would sound more knowledgeable if you had read that book I recommended. Heterosexual men were being forced out of seminaries if they attempted to defend boys who were being abused.

    • #36
  7. Whistle Pig Member
    Whistle Pig
    @

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    The single change that might have made a huge difference in this tragic story is if priests had been allowed to marry.

    My husband is a devout and faithful Catholic, but this is one change he has always wished for.

    He’s always thought marriage and family life would be good for the priests.

    Funny, my wife thinks it would be a disaster.

    • #37
  8. Whistle Pig Member
    Whistle Pig
    @

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    People can and should have their faith. It is also painfully obvious that the Clergy is not worthy of it.

    And there is the problem.  Put not your trust in Princes. In men who cannot save.

    • #38
  9. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Mike-K (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):
    Sorry, Mike-K, can’t agree with you at all on this. As Paddy S points out, this is primarily a homosexual problem. Read the John Jay report

    Why would married priests and admitting heterosexual men to seminaries not be a help ? You would sound more knowledgeable if you had read that book I recommended. Heterosexual men were being forced out of seminaries if they attempted to defend boys who were being abused.

    But there are married Catholic priests! Some of the Eastern Rites that are in communion with Rome have a married clergy – celibacy is what is known as a discipline, not a doctrine. There are good reasons for celibacy, and if it was such a hindrance to good men who wanted to serve as priests, one would expect that those rites who have a married clergy would be far greater in numbers than they are. Nor do I understand why it would help anyway, as the problems were, by a great margin,  caused by homosexual priests. Banning homosexuals from the priesthood would be more to the point.

    Also, the rates of abuse by Catholic clergy is about the same as that of Protestant clergy. And both are far, far lower than the rates in other professions such as teaching, though of course we do expect more from men of God.

    • #39
  10. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Given the Church’s soiled past and it current Leftist Pope maybe it is best that it is heading for the trash heap of history. Some things can not be redeemed, others should not be redeemed.

    This is rather hilarious – the Church has survived for 2000 years, despite plenty of sinners and incompetents in the heirarchy and the laity. She will survive this too….

    • #40
  11. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Of your list, Paddy, I would actually place affluence and poor catechesis as the main problems. The others are horrible, of course, but I think the Church can survive sinners – it has, after all, for 2000 years. 

    • #41
  12. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    “The single change that might have made a huge difference in this tragic story is if priests had been allowed to marry. ”

    According to Thomas Cahill if memory serves , the Catholic Church in Ireland, founded by St Patrick in the fifth century allowed Priests to marry and even had a woman Bishop.  Rome didn’t bother I think to make contact with the Irish Church  until the ninth century and things began to change.  Of course Ireland had a pretty rough history after Henry II conquered them.

    I remain a Catholic because I think it is closest to being a follower of Christ. The Church  is not without it’s faults though.

    I never understood the reason for the doctrine of Papal infallibility, aside from the obvious greedy grab for power by a bureaucracy in the nineteenth century.    It seems out of step with the teachings of Christ. Christ made St. Peter the head of the Church, essentially the first Pope, knowing full well Peter would deny him three times.  If Peter was so fallible in that time of Christ’s need, how are we to expect future Popes to behave better?

    Also if Papal infallibility was so important would’t have Christ been more explicit about it?

    They and all the other Priests are human after all and subject to the same temptations that tempt us all.

    • #42
  13. VUtah Member
    VUtah
    @VUtah

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    My two best friends are Catholic, and I have to fight the urge to ask them how they still can be, after all the church has done and facilitated. I totally don’t get it. Oh, yeah, human error, human evil–but wouldn’t you expect to find less of that, not more, in a religious institution?

    I’m Catholic – a cradle Catholic. I go to Mass every Sunday and holyday of obligation. I can’t answer for your two best friends but I am still Catholic because of the sacraments. As a Catholic I have the Word and the Eucharist. I am part of faith tradition that is two millennia long and was instituted by Jesus Christ.  

     

    • #43
  14. barbara lydick Inactive
    barbara lydick
    @barbaralydick

    Annefy (View Comment):
    It is us individuals that must carry the pro life message. I know many courageous Catholics who have soldiered on with little institutional support. 

    Certainly not one of the courageous, but I did try to do a little bit.  Some years ago I collected signatures for the referendum here in CA that would have put on the ballot the Abortion Waiting Period and Parental Notification Initiative for minor’s abortions. (Sadly it lost 52/48%.)

    Besides trolling the neighborhood, I visited several churches and spoke with the pastors, ministers, etc., to request that they let their parishioners know about this and to request that a signature sheet be made available for those who supported the initiative.

    To my amazement – and dismay – more than a few said they could not participate.  Their reason?  It might make their pro-choice members uncomfortable.  I politely suggested that those pro-choicers should feel uncomfortable (for all the obvious reasons, and given that state law required parental consent for minors’ ear piercing). 

    BTW, I donated the monies earned for the signatures to the Right to Life League of Southern CA.  To me, this was a labor of love because I felt so strongly about it.

    • #44
  15. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    if priests had been allowed to marry.

    Being married is not a vaccine for sexual sin and predation. The heart of humanity is broken, we see it everyday. 

    • #45
  16. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Unsk (View Comment):

    “The single change that might have made a huge difference in this tragic story is if priests had been allowed to marry. ”

    According to Thomas Cahill if memory serves , the Catholic Church in Ireland, founded by St Patrick in the fifth century allowed Priests to marry and even had a woman Bishop.

    St. Brigid was an abbess of a monastery, not a bishop. And again, there are rites within the Catholic Church which do have a married clergy.

     

     

    Rome didn’t bother I think to make contact with the Irish Church until the ninth century and things began to change. Of course Ireland had a pretty rough history after Henry II conquered them.

    I remain a Catholic because I think it is closest to being a follower of Christ. The Church is not without it’s faults though.

    I never understood the reason for the doctrine of Papal infallibility, aside from the obvious greedy grab for power by a bureaucracy in the nineteenth century. It seems out of step with the teachings of Christ. Christ made St. Peter the head of the Church, essentially the first Pope, knowing full well Peter would deny him three times. If Peter was so fallible in that time of Christ’s need, how are we to expect future Popes to behave better?

    With all due respect, I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. It has nothing to do with “behaving better” – in fact there have been some pretty shady popes. Nor is it frequently invoked.

    Also if Papal infallibility was so important would’t have Christ been more explicit about it?

    There are lots of doctrines we accept as Christians that Christ wasn’t explicit about. 

    They and all the other Priests are human after all and subject to the same temptations that tempt us all.

    Of course they are! Why would anyone think otherwise?

     

    • #46
  17. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    Why would married priests and admitting heterosexual men to seminaries not be a help ? You would sound more knowledgeable if you had read that book I recommended.

    As my comment stated, the abuse of minors was primarily a homosexual problem – why would you think I would be opposed to admitting heterosexual men to seminaries?.

    And with your great knowledge, you know that Pope Benedict XVI addressed this in 2005 with his Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders

    I don’t think a married priesthood is the solution to abuse of minors nor do I think it is a solution to the problem of shortage of priests in parts of the world. But Pope Francis seems to think it might be and as you know will add clerical celibacy to the agenda of the October 2019 Pan-Amazonion Synod.

    • #47
  18. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    VUtah (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    My two best friends are Catholic, and I have to fight the urge to ask them how they still can be, after all the church has done and facilitated. I totally don’t get it. Oh, yeah, human error, human evil–but wouldn’t you expect to find less of that, not more, in a religious institution?

    I’m Catholic – a cradle Catholic. I go to Mass every Sunday and holyday of obligation. I can’t answer for your two best friends but I am still Catholic because of the sacraments. As a Catholic I have the Word and the Eucharist. I am part of faith tradition that is two millennia long and was instituted by Jesus Christ.

     

    Yeah, but I don’t know if you heard: you can talk to Him yourself.

    • #48
  19. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Paddy S (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Because of the brilliance of Google, my time on this thread brought up an interesting video: Christopher Hitchens vs Dennis Prager.

    Dennis Prager posited that if you were a Jew in Europe during WWII, the smart person would turn towards a Catholic for solace.

    Christopher Hitchens pointed out it was the fool who looked to the church.

    There’s a message there …

    Hitchens has no basis to talk about churches and morality given his own ignorance in praising Lenin and his terrible book on religion

    I think that is her point –

    • #49
  20. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Like Majestyk said, this deeply tragic story “didn’t spring out of nothingness”.  It sprang from the father of lies, the real destroyer of souls, whose vileness was present from the beginning, as the Book of Genesis describes.  To think there is nothing left of faith, even in the Catholic Church, is to believe more of his lies.   Don’t do it. Think Screwtape on steroids.  Evil is present everywhere there is good and there’s plenty of good.  Good destroyed Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin.  Faith drove the bus and still does.

    Bella Dodd said she was personally responsible for thousands of communist infiltrators in the Catholic Church, even at the highest levels.  Go back to the Bible – read it – know your faith and hold clergy accountable – dust off your army boots.  Thank you Paddy for your courage and teaching truth.

    • #50
  21. VUtah Member
    VUtah
    @VUtah

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    VUtah (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    My two best friends are Catholic, and I have to fight the urge to ask them how they still can be, after all the church has done and facilitated. I totally don’t get it. Oh, yeah, human error, human evil–but wouldn’t you expect to find less of that, not more, in a religious institution?

    I’m Catholic – a cradle Catholic. I go to Mass every Sunday and holyday of obligation. I can’t answer for your two best friends but I am still Catholic because of the sacraments. As a Catholic I have the Word and the Eucharist. I am part of faith tradition that is two millennia long and was instituted by Jesus Christ.

     

    Yeah, but I don’t know if you heard: you can talk to Him yourself.

    Which I do. All the time. But a relationship with God is more than just talking to Him:

    “Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats  my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me” (John 6:53-57). 

    And this is an important thing I get from the Catholic Church.  

    • #51
  22. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    Like Majestyk said, this deeply tragic story “didn’t spring out of nothingness”. It sprang from the father of lies,

    Let’s not misinterpret what I’m saying here: I’m saying specifically that my suspicion (using historical knowledge guided by experience) is that the incentive structure which the church and its clergy has had since time immemorial has been wrong.  Corruption of this sort is inevitable when you have what boils down to a state-mandated monopoly.

    This is as much a story about that as it is about the fact that the veneer of holiness is merely that: a veneer.  And frequently a shield with which people in positions of authority hide their much deeper perfidy.

    • #52
  23. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    “With all due respect, I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. It has nothing to do with “behaving better” – in fact there have been some pretty shady popes. Nor is it frequently invoked.”

    I know there are all sorts of Church legalisms that govern the use of Papal infallibility. That still doesn’t address why is there a need for the doctrine. The Church existed for almost 19 centuries through some pretty turbulent times without it.

    Furthermore, the primary job of the Church is to preach and spread the Good News of Christ. Why resort to some legalistic fallback position that in the end undermines your preaching?  Everything the Pope does is and will be under scrutiny by the jury of public opinion and will be ultimately judged by God, not just that portion of what the Pope does that some Vatican select committee judges to be important.  Also, somehow through all the legalistic positioning the elephant in the room, the Church’s abominable behavior towards child abuse by Priests still has not been handled in a Christ like manner.

    • #53
  24. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    VUtah (View Comment):

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    My two best friends are Catholic, and I have to fight the urge to ask them how they still can be, after all the church has done and facilitated. I totally don’t get it. Oh, yeah, human error, human evil–but wouldn’t you expect to find less of that, not more, in a religious institution?

    I’m Catholic – a cradle Catholic. I go to Mass every Sunday and holyday of obligation. I can’t answer for your two best friends but I am still Catholic because of the sacraments. As a Catholic I have the Word and the Eucharist. I am part of faith tradition that is two millennia long and was instituted by Jesus Christ.

     

    Yeah, but I don’t know if you heard: you can talk to Him yourself.

    What a snarky thing to say. Yes, we do know that, as you no doubt know.

    • #54
  25. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Unsk (View Comment):

    “With all due respect, I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. It has nothing to do with “behaving better” – in fact there have been some pretty shady popes. Nor is it frequently invoked.”

    I know there are all sorts of Church legalisms that govern the use of Papal infallibility. That still doesn’t address why is there a need for the doctrine. The Church existed for almost 19 centuries through some pretty turbulent times without it.

    No, the Church did not exist for 19 centuries without it. You might not know this, but often in Church history, doctrines that may have been held for centuries are only “officially” defined when there is a challenge to it or the times require it.

    ithermore, the primary job of the Church is to preach and spread the Good News of Christ. Why resort to some legalistic fallback position that in the end undermines your preaching?

    I don’t understand what you mean here.

    Everything the Pope does is and will be under scrutiny by the jury of public opinion and will be ultimately judged by God, not just that portion of what the Pope does that some Vatican select committee judges to be important.Also, somehow through all the legalistic positioning the elephant in the room, the Church’s abominable behavior towards child abuse by Priests still has not been handled in a Christ like manner.

    I think there has been a reckoning and policies put into place. Millions of dollars have been given to victims and their lawyers. Dioceses have gone bankrupt. What more do you want?

    • #55
  26. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    “I think there has been a reckoning and policies put into place. Millions of dollars have been given to victims and their lawyers. Dioceses have gone bankrupt. What more do you want?”

    I hope new policies have been put into place. I have not heard any discussion of them. Please inform us. The church was forced by legal action to address the victims plight, and did not of it’s own volition. The Church had to be dragged in the past kicking and screaming through the legal process to help victims. It did not behave with Christian charity , as one would expect of Christ’s beacon to the world, towards the victims of this horrendous abuse.  That sin of omission deeply strained the Church’s credibility. I  hope this situation has changed. Apparently it has not in Ireland according to the testimony here which was the subject of the original post.

    • #56
  27. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Unsk (View Comment):
    I know there are all sorts of Church legalisms that govern the use of Papal infallibility. That still doesn’t address why is there a need for the doctrine. The Church existed for almost 19 centuries through some pretty turbulent times without it.

    Although papal infallibility was defined at the First Vatican Council, it doesn’t hold that 1870 was the date when the doctrine became true – @painterjean has already pointed that out – it has always been a part of the Magisterium.

    I think one can argue that Jesus did speak of papal infallibility when he gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and said to him that what he binds on earth will be bound in heaven and that what he looses on earth will be loosed in heaven (Mt 16:16-19). Another case would be when Jesus told Peter that he prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail so that he would then strengthen the brethren (Lk 22:31-32).

    Papal infallibility is a negative charism – it only allows for preservation of what has already been revealed. The teachings of the Church are not true because they are Catholic; they are Catholic because they are true. Papal infallibility conserves this teaching.

    My only quibble with @painterjean is the use of the word “official” for Church teaching (although she did not use it in this sense). Fr. Z has a good post where he points out how the word “official” can be used to undermine teaching acts that are infallible and the teachings that are irreformable.

    • #57
  28. Chuckles Coolidge
    Chuckles
    @Chuckles

    A question from the outside.  I’m thinking about tendencies toward abuse of others, in particular little boys, and wondering how one becomes a priest or a nun or whatever:  Is there an examination?  Is their background looked into?  Is there a periodic examination of lives and lifestyles?

    • #58
  29. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Unsk (View Comment):

    “I think there has been a reckoning and policies put into place. Millions of dollars have been given to victims and their lawyers. Dioceses have gone bankrupt. What more do you want?”

    I hope new policies have been put into place. I have not heard any discussion of them. Please inform us.

    Everyone involved in parish life  – teachers in parish schools, volunteers, parish staff — all have to undergo background checks and attend instructional courses about sexual and other exploitation of children. This is MANDATORY. I have had to go through this training, which is instituted at the diocesan level and put into practice at the parish level. If you’re unfamiliar with it, it means that you don’t read your diocesan newspaper (because this is brought up frequently) and are not involved in your parish. If you were involved in your parish, you would have first-hand knowledge of these programs.

    The church was forced by legal action to address the victims plight, and did not of it’s own volition. The Church had to be dragged in the past kicking and screaming through the legal process to help victims.

    Yes, it initially did not confront the issue in a forthright manner. It has since done so. What more do you want?

    It did not behave with Christian charity , as one would expect of Christ’s beacon to the world, towards the victims of this horrendous abuse. That sin of omission deeply strained the Church’s credibility. I hope this situation has changed.

    Yes, it has, for the most part.

    Apparently it has not in Ireland according to the testimony here which was the subject of the original post.

    I don’t know if that is what Paddy said. I don’t think he mentioned what the current attitude of the Church is in Ireland. Perhaps they have instituted policies such as we have here in the US. I hope so.

    • #59
  30. Paddy S Member
    Paddy S
    @PaddySiochain

    Unsk (View Comment):

    “I think there has been a reckoning and policies put into place. Millions of dollars have been given to victims and their lawyers. Dioceses have gone bankrupt. What more do you want?”

    I hope new policies have been put into place. I have not heard any discussion of them. Please inform us. The church was forced by legal action to address the victims plight, and did not of it’s own volition. The Church had to be dragged in the past kicking and screaming through the legal process to help victims. It did not behave with Christian charity , as one would expect of Christ’s beacon to the world, towards the victims of this horrendous abuse. That sin of omission deeply strained the Church’s credibility. I hope this situation has changed. Apparently it has not in Ireland according to the testimony here which was the subject of the original post.

    Teachers and clergy all have to have mandatory screening now before they work with any child. The abuse crisis in iReland is now a historical problem there are no recent cases of abuse but rather accusations from the past. The church should pay any compensation that is fair. However to say they’ve done nothing is inaccurate. In fact they are far more proactive about this issue than state bodies which continue to let abuse occur and without sanction. Hundreds have died in state care and hundreds abused probably more since 1990s

    • #60
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