We Should Talk About the UFO Story in the New York Times

 

Around these parts, I’m known as something of a skeptic. When it comes to various claims made by people with regard to supernatural phenomena, I am not shy about picking apart those claims with an especial eye towards a) providing plausible natural explanations for such occurrences, or b) ferreting out the human component of such claims when it comes to the desire to see those claims believed for a variety of all-too-human reasons.

But on Sunday, there was a front-page story at the New York Times which defied belief and the power of skepticism on a variety of fronts.

Guys, I found the alien…

It seems that back in 2007, then Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid ordered (in partnership with the late Senators Daniel Inouye and Ted Stevens) the Pentagon to set up a secret program called the “Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program” using black-budget money to study encounters with … Unidentified Flying Objects. Over the next five years, this program actually uncovered some stunning information, at the neat cost of $22 million.

My particular incredulity is tripartite. First, there is the curious case of Senator Harry Reid himself. Composed as he is of equal parts “corruption,” “disingenuousness,” and “spite,” Reid would never be mistaken for Mr. Congeniality in any beauty contest, so his motives for abusing this power in a near unilateral fashion ought to be obvious. Nonetheless, his ability to instigate such an expensive investigation outside of the prying eyes of taxpayer watchdog groups is hair-raising all on its own. Do I think that Reid was paying back political favors with taxpayer money? Who would dream of such a thing? This is my shocked face, by the way.

Second, is the fact that on the front page of the New York Times is a serious discussion of a subject which is normally relegated to the same laugh-out-loud status as “Bigfoot erotica” (h/t @jonahgoldberg).

Third, as if the previous two weren’t enough to wet your whistle for the weird, there’s the actual content of the story, which I have to admit is fairly captivating.

A brief discussion of the general parameters of skepticism is probably worthwhile before we dive headlong into this mess, however. Suffice to say that within the realm of the natural sciences, the statement “Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence,” as coined by Carl Sagan, is the currency of the realm.

This fish is extinct

For instance, you’re free to say that you’ve discovered a species of fish previously thought extinct, but unless you have pictures of the critter or the body of this living fossil, nobody is under any obligation to take you seriously. Ditto, the various claims made by religious people and other sorts of encounters with the paranormal like the Loch Ness Monster. What laymen need to understand is that the skeptic’s attitude is nothing personal; it’s just business.

I’m feeling better!

So it is with the phenomena which generally fall into the category/cultural milieu known as UFOs. The reason why the established scientific and skeptical community look askance at the various tales told by people who claim to have been kidnapped and probed by aliens is not that the claims themselves are absurd (ok … they’re pretty weird) but that those who are claiming such experiences lack utterly any sort of corroborating evidence. There are no dead alien bodies, no crashed spacecraft, and no relics of their technology.

If the claims these people make about aliens are true, these visitors have remarkable civilizational hygiene. They never leave so much as a footprint behind, let alone a galactic spanner or space bolt. I mean, when you’re on the ship you can’t snatch an alien toothbrush or whatever? Combine all of this with the fact that 320 million Americans now carry around with them a super-computer which doubles as a camera and internet portal. You’d think somebody would manage to snap an up-close shot of one of these critters or their sweet ride. Yet despite this incredible proliferation of evidence-gathering technology both remain notoriously camera-shy.

This is why for many reasons, the evidence presented in the New York Times article is so compelling.

The situation is as follows: it seems that in 2004, a pair of F/A-18 Hornets were on a routine training mission over the Pacific near San Diego when their control tower ordered them to investigate a radar return they had noticed. The objects in question started out at 80,000′, before rapidly descending to about 20,000′ and disappearing. That’s not even the weird part.

Upon arriving at the location of the purported radar return, the pilots encountered what they described as an oblong, strangely glowing object that was hovering over the ocean above some manner of disturbance in the water. The object rapidly took up position behind the fighters before accelerating to a point some 60 miles from their current spot in about a minute before stopping again. The pilots even managed to get gun-camera footage of the object:

There are several fantastic elements to this story. First, you have the relatively unimpeachable credentials of the pilots who witnessed the phenomenon firsthand. Not only do the individuals in question have no apparent motive for making up such a tale (David Fravor is a retired Navy Commander with thousands of hours of flight time) but there is solid, photographic evidence documenting the encounter with an object which is clearly acting in a fashion outside of the normal understanding of aerodynamics. Then there’s the radar return data, documenting the object’s erratic, violent acceleration and incredible rates of speed.

It is literally true that these pilots encountered an “unidentified flying object.” Note that this term is not synonymous with “alien spacecraft” but the question then remains: what in the heck was it?

Several potential answers present themselves. Unfortunately, I find none of them to be especially comforting.

From my position as a skeptic and a naturalist, my first inclination is to attribute this encounter to a previously undocumented natural phenomenon. Perhaps the pilots were witnessing a release of methane hydrate from the ocean floor — a thing which has been known to occur in areas prone to seismic activity, whereby trapped methane gas is suddenly released from ocean floor sediments by the shaking of a tremor. The trouble with this theory is those pesky radar returns. A release of gas — even that of different density than air — probably wouldn’t be painted by air traffic radar. Also, methane gas is less dense than air and would have the tendency to rise in the atmosphere — not descend at supersonic speeds some five miles then stop on a dime. There’s also the issue of the gun camera footage itself. The weird, glowing halo around the object (which appears in the infrared to be hot) nonetheless seems to be surrounding something solid.

On this basis, we can probably rule out purely natural phenomena on the basis of how the object acted and the documentary evidence itself. That leaves us, almost by process of elimination with the logical requirement that this is some form of technology. The question then becomes: Whose technology is it?

This is also the truly disturbing part of the discussion. If this is technology, this craft demonstrated capabilities well beyond those which we currently possess in any unclassified program — and probably in the classified ones as well. If it is of a terrestrial nature, that means somebody on this planet possesses an aircraft capable of easily outrunning our fighters and in many cases, even our missiles. And they were screwing around with our jets just because they could.

A nation-state in possession of this technology would seem to have the capability of delivering payloads of almost anything to all of this country’s coastal cities (that includes things like “bombs”) in very short order, which makes it a serious contender for its claim as a national security threat worth examination.

If these pilots just happened to have stumbled across technology owned and operated by the United States of America, somebody also has a lot of explaining to do for obvious reasons: how could the development of something so radical and advanced have taken place without a whisper of its existence having leaked out over the past few decades? Even the most highly classified airplane in history — the SR-71 or Project “Oxcart” — only remained classified from the point of its inception in the late ’50s until 1964 when President Johnson himself publicly admitted to the plane’s existence. It had been sighted by commercial aircraft crews and other industry observers prior to that admission, as well.

This thing being American would be weird, but not impossible. Especially in comparison to the last and, in my opinion, least likely explanation: that the object these pilots encountered was a craft of extraterrestrial origin.

This is a point on which everybody in any position of importance is basically mum. Careers have likely been ruined by people claiming to have seen a UFO, and the social stigma of making such a claim is so strong that it is the last explanation most serious people are likely to point to when encountering some otherwise inexplicable phenomenon.

Nonetheless, history is dotted with such weird reports throughout the era of human flight. Take this report from Japan Airlines Flight 1628 in 1986. While en route from Paris to Japan, the 747 cargo jet was reportedly pursued and harassed by several objects displaying similar flight characteristics to those on display in the 2004 incident as it flew over Alaskan airspace. The pilot in question, Captain Tenju Terauchi, filed his report with the FAA and stuck to his story despite being grounded by JAL for having discussed the matter with the press.

Incidents like these also create a lot of awkward questions for those involved, along with some strangely perverse incentives. Think about it: Which Air Force General or Navy Admiral wants to be the one to go to Congress and tell elected officials (who allocate nearly a trillion dollars annually to Defense) that there are objects with practically indescribable flight characteristics which routinely violate our airspace … and we don’t know what they are or how to stop them? None. And so it’s been.

With that sort of incentive structure in place, the very people most likely to provide these sorts of reports also turn out to be the least likely to provide them given the potential consequences of such an admission.

What is certain is that the Times and other so-called mainstream news outlets experienced an outpouring of interest at their having committed a random act of journalism. Let us hope they’ll take that signal as evidence that more reporting into these sorts of secrets can be both enlightening to the public and productive.

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  1. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Roberto the Weary (View Comment):

    Mike H (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):
    Even so, with as huge as the universe is, I find it highly unlikely that we are the only intelligent life in it.

    I’m pretty sure we’re the only current intelligent life of any merit in this galaxy, which is all that really matters in terms of contact. I’d be more than happy to be wrong about this.

    One man’s opinion: The odds of more than one form of intelligent life developing in a galaxy, while existing and at a level of technology where they both can interact with another intelligent species simultaneously are so high that they are indistinguishable from only one form of intelligent life existing in a galaxy at any given time.

    Now there are over 100 billion galaxies in the Universe, so if this premise is accepted then the universe is teeming with intelligent life and that we will never, ever encounter any of it.

    I think you are both wrong.  And that’s just because I want it to be so.  I also happen to be an evangelical Christian, and I cannot believe God created all of this just for us to look at.

    • #61
  2. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Roberto the Weary (View Comment):
    only one went with grasping tools and building. Just one, made swords and radios and airplanes.

    You are forgetting about the Monolith.

    • #62
  3. mesulkanen Member
    mesulkanen
    @

    One question to ask is: why did the DoD release this footage?

    Answer: I don’t know.

    • #63
  4. mesulkanen Member
    mesulkanen
    @

    mesulkanen (View Comment):
    One question to ask is: why did the DoD release this footage?

    Answer: I don’t know.

    I also know that sometimes the left hand knows not what the right does. And sometimes is even unaware there is a right hand.

    • #64
  5. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Z in MT (View Comment):
    My theory is a man-made remotely generated aurora/cloud of plasma created using high frequency RF generation like the HAARP array in Alaska . Clouds of atmospheric plasma are highly reflective to radar signals because they are conductive, they also glow in the IR as the internal temperatures are extremely high. The reason why the plasma could be generated so far away from the transmitter and apparently move very fast is due to reflections from the ionosphere that steer and focus the RF energy at different altitudes and positions as the ionosphere undergoes natural fluctuations. (Think about how short wave radios can sometimes reach the other side of the world through ionospheric reflections.) This also might be why the pilots observed a number of them moving as if in formation.

    Nope. Swamp gas. Clearly swamp gas.

    • #65
  6. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Larry Koler (View Comment):
    We should talk about Graham Hancock’s book, Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind (which I highly recommend) wherein his investigation into the paranormal might be pertinent here. He shows how the folk stories about fairies and the aliens come together:

    1. Alien abductions = fairy abductions.
    2. Alien abductions are a new phenomenon in our culture and they only started coming into existence after WWII.
    3. Guess what? Fairy stories stopped around WWII and were replaced with Alien abductions.
    4. People disappeared in both tales.
    5. They came back with stories of their other family in another dimension or place, sometimes even with notions that they left children behind.
    6. Sexual stuff abounded in both cases.
    7. Fairy rings were burnt circles in the ground as are some of the alien appearance sites.
    8. High speed motion of lighted and flashing vehicles were part of both stories.

    When I was in 4th grade in 1960 I first read of grays and blues and the magazines I read them in were creepy and enthralling. A friend of mine’s dad had a stash of these magazines.

    Final thing to mention: my wife’s grandmother was from northern Scotland (around Inverness) and her family and culture often threatened children with leaving them outside for the fairies to come and get them.

    Several years ago I listened to an interview with an anthropologist who also studies these sorts of stories.  This person noted some other interesting points:

    • Claims of alien sightings do actually well predate WWII (and WWI in some areas, depending on how advanced they were, or how much science fiction was read in those areas)
    • The physical descriptions of these fairies / aliens is usually consistent across and within the prevailing culture of the area where they are “seen”, but varies widely between geographically separate cultures. Siberians in the early 1900s (who were claiming to have seen aliens, not fairies, well prior to WWII), described them as tall and furry.  Northern UK sightings were always fairies.  The US had its own too (again, well prior to WWII).  Other regions always had their own figures.
    • The prevailing physical descriptions change as the culture changes.  Sometimes these figures are short, sometimes tall.  Sometimes gray or blue, sometimes furry, sometimes insectoid, etc.

    The anthropologist concluded that people’s minds were just drawing on what they were already familiar with, and mapping it onto either unfamiliar phenomenon or their own hallucinations as a sort of mental gap filling.

    • #66
  7. Mendel Inactive
    Mendel
    @Mendel

    I must admit this story intrigues me, perhaps because it is nearly the complete converse of the typical UFO sighting.

    The evidence seems to specific, traceable, and broadly-sourced to be a complete fabrication. Yet I have a hard time believing this was an alien sighting, if for no other reason than the notion that the aliens were smart enough to hide from everyone except the Navy for two weeks strikes me as somewhat preposterous. So I’m leaning toward something man-made.

    What doesn’t pass the sniff test is the apparent handling of this sighting by the Navy. If they really had repeated evidence from radars, infrared sensors, and multiple professional pilots about aircraft with unheard-of aerodynamic capabilities hanging out at the edge of their usual training area, they wouldn’t simply shrug their shoulders and hand the mystery off to a crackpot crony of a crackpot Senator.

    No, they would put all of their available efforts into researching the matter in more depth. The fact that they obviously didn’t suggests that they may have a more trivial explanation or good reason to doubt the veracity of one or more of the sources, but didn’t reveal as much to the NYT for whatever nefarious or humorous reason.

    • #67
  8. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    I have no earthly idea what the object in the video could be – but that doesnt instantly make it unearthly. My personal theory that its a turbine powered drone of some type – possibly with multiple thrust channels – so that the vehicle could rapidly change direction simply by opening a new thrust channel. But thats a completely uneducated guess.

    There are a few problems with alien visitation. While the universe is vast and should be teaming with life. The vastness of space maybe an insurmountable obstacle. Everything we know about the universe says we live in a relativistic universe – making faster than light travel impossible. Without faster than light travel, interstellar flights to even the closest stars would take decades – if not centuries – making the trip one way, for any creature with a reasonably limited lifespan. If we’re being visited by aliens from dozens or hundreds of light years away, this would mean that everything we fundamentally believe about the universe is wrong.

    My other problems with the alien conspiracies is the behavior of the aliens. If they had crossed the galaxy to make contact with a civilization, why wouldnt they do that? You know land on the white house lawn – or at the UN and say “Hello” or “Surrender or Perish”. Landing in Armpit, Co to peg some locals, mutilate a few cattle, and disappear just doesnt make sense. Why do they care to conceal their existence and why limit their scientific study?

    Also, to get back to Helicopters and test flights in the 1940s – I believe that the program would have been conducted at White Sands. Which was home to the Goddard research group until July 1941, when it got moved to Maryland. Also the helicopters where flying almost as quickly as air planes. In the early days they where called AutoGyros, they’ve been flying since the early 1920.

    AutoGyro on Wikipedia

    • #68
  9. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    In this case, the detector is looking at a relatively narrow band of wavelengths in the infrared spectrum. As a result, an object shining very brightly in IR might saturate the detector which, when translated to false-color or grayscale images would appear like flare or a just as a white blob. That isn’t really what we’re looking at, though.

    I really don’t know.  I know something about optics in general, and I can comment on the halo effect from experience using IR sights, but I really don’t know about the detectors in IR systems like these.

    If you don’t mind a little speculation, my assumption is that they’re photodetectors, similar to a consumer digital camera, but optimized for far infrared wavelengths.  If that’s the case, and the halo is caused by the excitation of nearby photosites, then we should see a similar effect in visible light digital cameras.  We don’t. However,  photodetector sensitivity in consumer products is greatly compromised by relatively high thermal noise.  So it’s possible this effect occurs in consumer cameras and we just don’t see it because it’s lost in the sensor’s noise floor.  It’s common to lower the noise floor in applications where high sensitivity is needed, such as photo astronomy, by cooling the sensor.  So if the phenomenon is caused by exciting nearby photosites, then perhaps some of our astronomy buffs have encountered it?

    • #69
  10. Larry Koler Inactive
    Larry Koler
    @LarryKoler

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):
    Without faster than light travel, interstellar flights to even the closest stars would take decades – if not centuries – making the trip one way, for any creature with a reasonably limited lifespan.

    Please remember the absurdities with regard to relativity: the person making the trip doesn’t age at the same rate as people at home observing the takeoff. If the acceleration rate is high enough then the ship could travel at some large fraction of the speed of light and then (after decelerating) still be young enough to do some colonizing or exploring.

    • #70
  11. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Curt North (View Comment):
    I find this subject utterly fascinating, always have. Brings up some uncomfortable questions when you consider the Bible,

    As an adolescent child I said something to my grandfather akin to, if X is true, then the book of Genesis is wrong, and God must not exist.  I don’t recall what X was, but my grandfather’s response sticks with me.  He said that God treats us as a caring parent treats a child.  He tells us what we need to know in a way that we can understand.  Like a parent explaining something to a child that tests the limits of the child’s understanding, what God tells us is true, even though it may be incomplete or less than 100% accurate.

    It wasn’t a very satisfying answer to an arrogant, iconoclastic kid trying to make sense of the world (and fools of adults) with pure logic, but I had to concede the point.

    • #71
  12. mesulkanen Member
    mesulkanen
    @

    I’m a physicist by trade and I really don’t have a good speculation as to what this thing is, based on the limited data provided by the imagery. How fast was it going?

    • #72
  13. mesulkanen Member
    mesulkanen
    @

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):
    My theory is a man-made remotely generated aurora/cloud of plasma created using high frequency RF generation like the HAARP array in Alaska . Clouds of atmospheric plasma are highly reflective to radar signals because they are conductive, they also glow in the IR as the internal temperatures are extremely high. The reason why the plasma could be generated so far away from the transmitter and apparently move very fast is due to reflections from the ionosphere that steer and focus the RF energy at different altitudes and positions as the ionosphere undergoes natural fluctuations. (Think about how short wave radios can sometimes reach the other side of the world through ionospheric reflections.) This also might be why the pilots observed a number of them moving as if in formation.

    Nope. Swamp gas. Clearly swamp gas.

    RF: generation? Zeroth-order response is that the F-18 would have experienced a lot of RF interference. Also the rigid-body like rotation is problematic.

    Swamp gas? Persistence, confinement, and rigid-body like behavior is problematic.

    Conclusion: I don’t know – need to see more imagery and data.

    • #73
  14. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    mesulkanen (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):
    My theory is a man-made remotely generated aurora/cloud of plasma created using high frequency RF generation like the HAARP array in Alaska . Clouds of atmospheric plasma are highly reflective to radar signals because they are conductive, they also glow in the IR as the internal temperatures are extremely high. The reason why the plasma could be generated so far away from the transmitter and apparently move very fast is due to reflections from the ionosphere that steer and focus the RF energy at different altitudes and positions as the ionosphere undergoes natural fluctuations. (Think about how short wave radios can sometimes reach the other side of the world through ionospheric reflections.) This also might be why the pilots observed a number of them moving as if in formation.

    Nope. Swamp gas. Clearly swamp gas.

    RF: generation? Zeroth-order response is that the F-18 would have experienced a lot of RF interference. Also the rigid-body like rotation is problematic.

    Swamp gas? Persistence, confinement, and rigid-body like behavior is problematic.

    Conclusion: I don’t know – need to see more imagery and data.

    Why speculate about imagery when there are alleged artifacts being stored in ‘modified buildings’ in Las Vegas.    Let’s demand to see the stuff … whatever it is.    If there is stuff – real physical things – I want to see ‘em.

    • #74
  15. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Larry Koler (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):
    Without faster than light travel, interstellar flights to even the closest stars would take decades – if not centuries – making the trip one way, for any creature with a reasonably limited lifespan.

    Please remember the absurdities with regard to relativity: the person making the trip doesn’t age at the same rate as people at home observing the takeoff. If the acceleration rate is high enough then the ship could travel at some large fraction of the speed of light and then (after decelerating) still be young enough to do some colonizing or exploring.

    Yes, but those you leave behind would age, any family or friends left behind would be gone by the time the crew returns. I have to believe that any society that develops this level of technology would be a highly co-operative society, with strong inter-personal bonds.

    This is a topic that often upsets me about sci-fi, where there are high technology societies that also have slavery – like the Klingons. To my mind, slavery is antithetical to technology, a society that has slavery would barely have electric lights and running water – let alone interstellar travel.

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

     

    • #75
  16. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Roberto the Weary (View Comment):
    Consider Earth, the only lab experiment which we can observe. So out of all the amazing countless ways species can evolve for survival one, only one went with grasping tools and building. Just one, made swords and radios and airplanes. The porcupine did not find that a necessary precursor to survive, nor did the cheetah or countless others.

    So what are the odds on a galaxy-wide scale? Looking at it plainly from this point of view, they seem not so great to me. One per galaxy, at best.

    Or one per planet that sustains life and has the same evolutionary pressures?

    • #76
  17. Mendel Inactive
    Mendel
    @Mendel

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    Why speculate about imagery when there are alleged artifacts being stored in ‘modified buildings’ in Las Vegas. Let’s demand to see the stuff … whatever it is. If there is stuff – real physical things – I want to see ‘em.

    My impression from reading the NYT articles was that the artifacts in the warehouse in Vegas are not related to the specific case of the UFOs intercepted by the FA-18s off of California. It sounded like those artifacts were from more “run-of-the-mill” UFO sightings/crashes by civilians.

    • #77
  18. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

     

    • #78
  19. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Mendel (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    Why speculate about imagery when there are alleged artifacts being stored in ‘modified buildings’ in Las Vegas. Let’s demand to see the stuff … whatever it is. If there is stuff – real physical things – I want to see ‘em.

    My impression from reading the NYT articles was that the artifacts in the warehouse in Vegas are not related to the specific case of the UFOs intercepted by the FA-18s off of California. It sounded like those artifacts were from more “run-of-the-mill” UFO sightings/crashes by civilians.

    Fine with me.    I’ll take run of the mill.    It sure beats the 100% speculation we have now.   Let’s see whatever it is and whatever analysis there is.

    • #79
  20. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

    Yes, I had known of this as well, but that’s because they’re measuring time in micro-seconds. I dont believe that time dilation during a spaceflight has ever been noticed or experienced by a human scenes.

    • #80
  21. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):
    No no no. There are WAY more variables than that. Such as “what can they do to us.” If an alien space ship is flapping around in our atmosphere, the aliens who built it are so far beyond us technologically that we will look (at best) like aborigines looked to the Europeans…which didn’t work out so well for the aborigines.

    Not necessarily. We can’t presume anything about their society or moral precepts, but if they’re smart enough to get here, they’re smart enough to recognize a society that is technologically advance –  even if it’s way below their own capabilities. It would seem odd if they thought “look at these savage simpletons, using radio wavs to communicate with their interplanetary research vehicles.”

    • #81
  22. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

    Yes, I had known of this as well, but that’s because they’re measuring time in micro-seconds. I dont believe that time dilation during a spaceflight has ever been noticed or experienced by a human scenes.

    We’ve also never even approached 1% of the speed of light, let alone 10 or 20%.  Light from the moon takes less than 2 seconds, Apollo took what, 3 days?

    • #82
  23. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Chuck Enfield (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    In this case, the detector is looking at a relatively narrow band of wavelengths in the infrared spectrum. As a result, an object shining very brightly in IR might saturate the detector which, when translated to false-color or grayscale images would appear like flare or a just as a white blob. That isn’t really what we’re looking at, though.

    I really don’t know. I know something about optics in general, and I can comment on the halo effect from experience using IR sights, but I really don’t know about the detectors in IR systems like these.

    If you don’t mind a little speculation, my assumption is that they’re photodetectors, similar to a consumer digital camera, but optimized for far infrared wavelengths. If that’s the case, and the halo is caused by the excitation of nearby photosites, then we should see a similar effect in visible light digital cameras. We don’t. However, photodetector sensitivity in consumer products is greatly compromised by relatively high thermal noise. So it’s possible this effect occurs in consumer cameras and we just don’t see it because it’s lost in the sensor’s noise floor. It’s common to lower the noise floor in applications where high sensitivity is needed, such as photo astronomy, by cooling the sensor. So if the phenomenon is caused by exciting nearby photosites, then perhaps some of our astronomy buffs have encountered it?

    Crap, now I have to call myself out for being wrong again.  The halo is a contrasting color from the object.  If the phenomenon is as I speculated, photons from the high-intensity region would “bleed” into the adjacent low-intensity region making it appear of higher intensity than it really is.  That’s not what’s happening in the video.  The halo around the object represents a region of even lower intensity than the background.  It seems like that could happen in a sensor with a shared substrate, like a CCD, but if this effect is caused by oversaturating the substrate then I can’t explain it.  The worst grade of my college career was in solid-state physics.  What little I learned is long forgotten.  All I can say is that I have oversaturated small regions of a CCD in visible light cameras (badly overexposed images of LEDs against dark backgrounds) and have never noticed this.

    • #83
  24. Misthiocracy, Joke Pending Member
    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending
    @Misthiocracy

    Here’s a hypothesis that’s fanciful, but still fits the facts as well as any other: The object on the video looks like a balloon (to me, anyways).  The video does not show the object moving very quickly, or making the “impossible” maneuvers that were reported by the radar crews.  Therefore, perhaps it was a balloon carrying equipment that fakes radar information.

    • #84
  25. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Misthiocracy, Joke Pending (View Comment):
    Here’s a hypothesis that’s fanciful, but still fits the facts as well as any other: The object on the video looks like a balloon (to me, anyways). The video does not show the object moving very quickly, or making the “impossible” maneuvers that were reported by the radar crews. Therefore, perhaps it was a balloon carrying equipment that fakes radar information.

    Balloons?  That’s what the skeptics always say. ;-)

    • #85
  26. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

    Yes, I had known of this as well, but that’s because they’re measuring time in micro-seconds. I dont believe that time dilation during a spaceflight has ever been noticed or experienced by a human scenes.

    We’ve also never even approached 1% of the speed of light, let alone 10 or 20%. Light from the moon takes less than 2 seconds, Apollo took what, 3 days?

    The first proof of time dilation effects was done with 2 synchronized atomic clocks.  One was kept on the ground, one was put on an airplane and flown around for a few days.  When the plane landed, the flown clock was measurably behind the ground clock (well, measurable by atomic clock standards anyway).

    • #86
  27. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

    Yes, I had known of this as well, but that’s because they’re measuring time in micro-seconds. I dont believe that time dilation during a spaceflight has ever been noticed or experienced by a human scenes.

    We’ve also never even approached 1% of the speed of light, let alone 10 or 20%. Light from the moon takes less than 2 seconds, Apollo took what, 3 days?

    No you’re missing the point. We’re discussing time dilation as a feature of high velocity travel. So far humans have only experienced a few microseconds to milliseconds of it. Would a crew of a sub-light vessel traveling at a fair fraction experience enough time dilation to stop aging, or does the vessel have to travel at a high fraction of light speed, in order to stop aging?

    Apollo flew at the speed and trajectory for safety reasons. Its called a ‘free return trajectory’ should something go wrong the spacecraft will return to earth. This is why most Mars missions use a 6 month trajectory to Mars – if something goes wrong and the spacecraft doesnt enter Mars orbit – the spacecraft will eventually return to earth. Those who advocate a 40 day trip to Mars are advocating an extremely reckless adventure. Because such a spacecraft that doesnt enter into Mars orbit at this velocity would end up eventually leaving the solar system.

     

    • #87
  28. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Majestyk: he reason why the established scientific and skeptical community look askance at the various tales told by people who claim to have been kidnapped

    Speaking of this fellow, @ejhill put me up to this

    Larry Koler (View Comment):
    6. Sexual stuff abounded in both cases.

    Indeed!

    • #88
  29. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):

    Is time dilation linear? I am thinking that an early voyage that maybe averages 10 or 20% of the speed of light, would the time dilation be that pronounced to stop aging? I wouldnt think so.

    If I understood him correctly, @richardeaston made the point that even on GPS satellites they have to adjust for relativity just based on the speed that they are moving in order to get an accurate location.

    Yes, I had known of this as well, but that’s because they’re measuring time in micro-seconds. I dont believe that time dilation during a spaceflight has ever been noticed or experienced by a human scenes.

    We’ve also never even approached 1% of the speed of light, let alone 10 or 20%. Light from the moon takes less than 2 seconds, Apollo took what, 3 days?

    No you’re missing the point. We’re discussing time dilation as a feature of high velocity travel. So far humans have only experienced a few microseconds to milliseconds of it. Would a crew of a sub-light vessel traveling at a fair fraction experience enough time dilation to stop aging, or does the vessel have to travel at a high fraction of light speed, in order to stop aging?

    And I think you’re missing mine (and also Skip’s); they have already experienced time dilation, just not enough to satisfy your requirement that they experience/notice it with their human senses.  I don’t know if the effect is purely linear or perhaps logarithmic, but it starts immediately.  It does not wait until you’ve reached a significant portion of the speed of light before the effect manifests.

    • #89
  30. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    OccupantCDN (View Comment):
    Would a crew of a sub-light vessel traveling at a fair fraction experience enough time dilation to stop aging, or does the vessel have to travel at a high fraction of light speed, in order to stop aging?

    Technically, they don’t stop aging.    But time, for the hi velocity crew, runs more slowly than for the low velocity planet bound observers.

    • #90
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