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“Prom Accommodation” Is Bad for American Muslims
Several weeks ago a school in Brooklyn was petitioned to move their prom to an earlier date. As reported by The Blaze, the petition had been organized several months before but faculty claim it had not been brought to their attention. The petition was in relation to the beginning of Ramadan. Muslim students at the school wanted to be able to participate in both prom and the beginning of the great Islamic fast.
Initially I was not sure why prom would have anything to do with Ramadan. I have participated in fast-breaking during Ramadan and nothing I observed seem to conflict with what happens at a prom. After the prayers are said almost everyone breaks the fast with dates and milk. Good dates, not bad dates. Then lots of delicious food is brought out and since it is obvious I am a Christian (in general I almost always wear a cross necklace) the merits of Christianity vs. Islam are passionately but civilly discussed. In other words, it is a delicious respite from the insanity of regressive western culture. And aside from skin color and clothing, it’s virtually indiscernible from a Baptist potluck. Theology is being discussed and food is being eaten. That’s Baptist. That’s an ecumenism I can get behind.
Now obviously if prom were during the day it would be more clear why those participating in Ramadan would not also be able to enjoy the festivities of prom. But proms take place at night after the daily observance is over. After some light digging I found that practice of Ramadan often is interpreted as involving avoidance of music. Particularly secular music because of course the Islamic liturgy involves singing.
This issue obviously has some complicated cultural and political issues. And these issues, while not unprecedented in US history, do not have easy or obvious correlations to other religious groups. One issue is the unnecessary entanglement of a public school with religion. This is undoubtedly the tack certain types of unbearable atheists will take. Of course they would have a legitimate point, but not much of one since the lunar dating of the beginning of Ramadan would mean this accommodation would not occur every single year. Also the accommodation should have almost nothing to do with the event itself outside of the date. This is at worst the tiniest sort of entanglement possible. Also accommodating Ramadan observance is clearly an aid to religious freedom and community enrichment rather than an endorsement or imposition upon others. The same unbearable “brights” that would likely take the first line would almost certainly try to fight along this one as well. There would likely be some conservative Christians and right wingers jumping on that bandwagon as well trying to fallaciously prove that this represents government endorsement of a religion.
Thankfully this did not blow up into a massive controversy. Which could be a sign that Trump will draw so much media energy that communities will be allowed to deal with some of these issues in relative anonymity. This is something to consider for all conservatives in positions of power or influence. I think most of us feel that we may be under more scrutiny right now but the regressive media is essentially like a badly led army. They keep committing the fallacy of a frontal assault against a fixed defensive position. This means that while General “Picket” CNN wastes itself on the bloody angle there will assuredly be some opportunities to break PC ranks and win some minor covert political victories for the next three and a half years.
But the simple fact that some Muslims wanted religious accommodation is almost assuredly a bad thing for Muslims. I can’t claim to have a Muslim perspective but if I were part of a religious minority community that believed deeply in things antithetical to the general values of a country like the US (morals like forbidding extramarital sex or teetotalism, which also ironically is identical to being a Baptist) I would be deeply concerned for the next generation. In fact this is not hard for me to imagine at all since my religious background is that of Conservative Baptists! Baptists generally try to participate in things like Prom but not without moral guidance. Older generations of Baptists would probably exclude their children from these sorts of events simply because of the dancing and the secular music. The idea of making prom conform to their principles would most likely be far from their minds. Obedience to their religious faith would be the primary motivation and a simple acceptance of the fact that not everyone thinks and feels the same way. And that’s okay. Society should not have to conform to me but neither should it try to conform me to it.
A cynical devout Muslim could view this attempt at accommodation as an attempt by the young liberal Muslims to engage in Halal without incurring Allah’s fullest wrath. Sort of like a Christian who won’t fool around with their girlfriend on Sundays. Everyone knows that the opportunities to be a bad Muslim are plentiful at an event like prom. Activities like drinking and sex. But from my perspective if this sort of thing becomes a trend the bigger problem could be that Muslims simply do not want to acclimate as genuine Americans. And this is really not good for anybody.
This has certainly become a huge problem in Europe and the UK. It has not been as bad here because of what America is and remains: a nation of laws, not last names. Where you came from has nothing to do with whether or not you can be a good American. If I were English I would be concerned about immigration for the basic reason that England is an English country. The issue of terrorism is really a completely separate security issue, that is of course deeply related to Islam. But the basic idea that America exists for whoever is willing to be American means that we have no conflict with Islam. Shariah Law has a conflict with American Law but that’s an issue for Muslim Americans to figure out.
But at the end of the day you cannot have your religious cake and eat it too as an American. Well actually you can! Unless your religious cake means that you want to make others eat it also. But America is supposed to be just as capitalist intellectually as it is fiscally and that means that Muslim Americans are welcome to try to convince others all day long that they are right and everything else is wrong. But I’m also free to point out that the Dome of the Rock has variant surahs on it which prove that the textual transmission of the Quran has some errors. And then we get to fight about that with our words and ideas like civilized people.
The upshot is that Catholics and Orthodox Christians never complained about Thanksgiving being during the Advent fast. They adapted as they were able according to conscience. And Jews simply created their own version of Christmas. That’s awesome. That’s virtuous civil freedom. Muslims will be better off if they follow the same line. It isn’t the end of the world if your kid can’t go to prom. Love of Allah’s laws should come before youthful partying. And it’s also not the end of the world if your child engages in Halal during Ramadan … well actually maybe it is, and if that’s the case maybe Allah and YHWH don’t have as much in common as some would have us believe. That’s ‘Merica baby! Ultimately your life is your own and you get to make real decisions with it everyday. Freedom isn’t easy, its good.
Published in Religion & Philosophy
I didn’t mean it as open borders. Though there are conservatives and libertarians who like open borders. It wouldn’t be a big issue if there weren’t government entitlements based on income tax. Traditionally illegal aliens in Texas have been ignored since they don’t have income tax there. So if you live in Texas you pay the same state taxes as everyone else. Because California is a welfare state it’s much more controversial.
But yeah the regressive idea that being American means wanting to live in America is beyond idiotic. Being American is a very specific thing and regressives don’t want to be American. So yes I think we agree.
I didn’t mean anything like that. And Hobby Lobby being forced to provide abortifacents is radically different from Muslims deciding they can’t participate in an optional school party. I’ve already admitted that I see how confusing that passage could be but I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. A significant part of free exercise is freedom from not just freedom for. And this case doesn’t really involve either.
As a “Prom Mom” serving my time on my second Prom Committee, I assure you that the amount of work that goes into preparing for a prom is immense and you absolutely cannot willy-nilly change the date. Of course, I’m in the south which means that we overdo every social occasion. Prom involves the solicitation of massive donations for food, prizes for the casino games, decor and party favors (most with the special prom date), engraved invitations (dated), after-event t-shirts (also dated). Plus, the caterer is booked, the valets are booked, the DJ/Band is booked, the casino company is booked – all well in advance. In fact, I am on the committee that is putting on Prom 2018 and we already have our date and have already obtained school admin approval. We could probably change it if the need arose in the next 8 weeks or so, but once school starts in the fall, it would be very, very difficult! Other school organizations plan their events around the prom date such as sports banquets, try-outs and awards ceremonies. Somebody should have looked at the calendar earlier – this smells a bit manufactured to me.
-DP
Religious freedom in non-mandated areas is a purely negative freedom. In prisons, schools, and such, it takes on a lot more positive freedom; if you say that a kid has to go to school, you then need to make reasonable accommodations within the school environment.
The baseline for Orthodox fasting is quasi-vegan (as it was until recently for Catholics, too, and most Protestants), but we can always eat shellfish and we get fish on weekends. We’re also discouraged from continuing our fast from too much of the year; St. Paul implies that we should only give ourselves over to fasting for a time. One of the most common arguments for this is that both the abstention and the substitution are important. Talk to a lot of Jews and they will tell you that pork is no burden because they have not tasted pork in order to then miss it.
I don’t understand how a petition for religious freedom would seem to you to be something other than a claim that as Americans they are protected by the First Amendment. Pretty much all First Amendment claims of importance are about minority privilege, be that the Catholic efforts to be allowed to raise Catholics and run monasteries or Hobby Lobby’s exemption from generally applicable contraception mandates.
I’m willing to accept that other religious freedom advocates might not be “SJW”, but chiefly because I don’t believe that there’s a serious definition at play there. The literal meaning, that other advocates for religious freedom are not pushing for social justice, seems misplaced, but SJW has generally been used, particularly on the right, to refer sarcastically to advocates that one disagrees with.
A priest and a rabbi are seated next to one another on a plane . During the flight, the priest says, “Tell me, rabbi, is it still a requirement of the Jewish faith that you do not eat pork?” “That is the case, yes,” says the rabbi. “But tell me, did you ever get tempted – did it ever appeal so much that you couldn’t resist and decided to see what, say, bacon tasted like?” the priest goes on. “Yes, father, there was one occasion when, as a young man, the smell of bacon became too much of a temptation and I tasted it,” the rabbi admits. “And how did you find it?” asks the priest. “Well, says the rabbi, “Since we are both men of God and being honest with one another, I must confess it was excellent. I enjoyed it very much. But I never ate it ever again.” Then the rabbi says to the priest, “Tell me, father – is it still a requirement of your own faith that you remain celibate?” “Why yes,” says the priest, “That is indeed true.” “But were you ever tempted, even once, to see what sexual intercourse is like?” the rabbi continues. “Well, as you were so honest with me, I must confess that indeed, once, when I was a young man, I did have sexual intercourse with a woman,” the priest tells him. The rabbi smiles: “Beats the hell out of a bacon sandwich, doesn’t it?”
Your impression of Protestant views on lent may be tilted toward the Church of England.
A weakened lent has been popping up in evangelical and reformed churches, but it isn’t really part of our tradition.
You would be amazed at how many different languages are spoken in the Amazon rainforest. If your missionary group is translating the Bible into a good number of these languages, you need a good number of linguists. That results in a good number of families with children needing education and so you set up a school for them and get it U.S. accredited.
That was more or less my point.
I’m familiar. Born and raised. I went to elementary school in Ocala and we had this system for a bit… I remember my dad complaing about being home for school on Easter Monday.
High school, it had been phased out (still Marion County).
My current experience is i4 corridor, the tri-county city of Orlando. I know its transplanted yankees.
To OP – this is an interesting conversation.
“Religious freedom in non-mandated areas is a purely negative freedom. In prisons, schools, and such, it takes on a lot more positive freedom; if you say that a kid has to go to school, you then need to make reasonable accommodations within the school environment.”
Yes but a kid doesn’t have to go to Prom.
And a lot of them don’t.
“The baseline for Orthodox fasting is quasi-vegan (as it was until recently for Catholics, too, and most Protestants), but we can always eat shellfish and we get fish on weekend”
The only Orthodox Christians I’ve ever known would disagree with that. They think the fish/meat distinction is a western development based on the Latin words for meat. Maybe that’s an inner circle debate I’ve never heard of. They’re also mostly Antiochian Neo Palamites, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their views were not “mainstream.”
@jamesofengland is Greek Orthodox, so knows what of he speaks. And nfn, his encyclopedic knowledge of religions puts him in the top tier of Ricochet in that regard. (And that’s saying something considering the crowd here.)
“I don’t understand how a petition for religious freedom would seem to you to be something other than a claim that as Americans they are protected by the First Amendment. Pretty much all First Amendment claims of importance are about minority privilege, be that the Catholic efforts to be allowed to raise Catholics and run monasteries or Hobby Lobby’s exemption from generally applicable contraception mandates.”
I admit I don’t know that much about what actually went down, so it’s very possible that it was. But my impression is that current American Islamic youth (and most American youth in general) simply don’t conceive of themselves in this way. I’m making a distinction between their actual constitutional rights and their motivations and intentions in this instance. But I’m also not sure that they have a legitimate constitutional argument. I think regressive media presents these things not as constitutional issues, about their rights as US citizens, but as moral social issues and this determines their conception of the issue. But I’m also not sure that they have a legitimate constitutional argument and I don’t really think this is necessarily a “good faith” religious freedom issue (and I’m not sure how relevant that is, I thought it was quite a big deal but my constitutional understanding is in its infancy which is why I wanted to write about this to try to think through it). For one many American Muslims aren’t observant, especially regarding alcohol (this has always been a problem in Islam as far as I can tell, practically and theologically since the Tanakh & Apostolic Witness do not espouse teetotalism) and the youth seem to be remarkably cavalier about Halal. I watched a middle school girl eat a corn dog while wearing a hijab recently. And two I’m not convinced that Ramadan’s restrictions actually do present a problem for Prom. I really think it has more to do with the dangers of engaging in Halal during Ramadan, this is an honor shame religion and it’s concept of sin comes more in degrees. And I really don’t see any similarity to Hobby Lobby, I just don’t think the situations have any relevance. I could see a similarity with Halal cafeteria food.
That doesn’t have much to do with what I said. He presented himself as some sort of Orthodox. I’m not claiming his beliefs about his beliefs are mistaken. I was pretty close to conversion about 5 years ago, but like I said I can only speak to what I’ve encountered. One thing I’ve encountered is actually quite a lot of disagreement amongst Orthodox Christians so I wouldn’t be surprised that there was disagreement over the nature of fasting especially between the Greeks & Antiochians/OCA/Russians.
This is interesting to me but I don’t think it’s super relevant.
That’s awesome. I should probably follow him then. But that still doesn’t have much to do with what I said.
That actually sounds exactly right to me. Maybe that’s a dynamic at play.
@jamesofengland do you observe western rite? I thought Greek Orthodoxy was uncomfortable with the western rite since the Byzantine rite is so greatly revered especially amongst the Greeks, and WR churches feel so Catholic. In a really good way. I think the Westen and Byzantine rites are equally beautiful. But I prefer the darkness and oranic feel of the Byzantine.
AHAHAHAHA
@jamesofengland wrote:
“I’m willing to accept that other religious freedom advocates might not be “SJW”, but chiefly because I don’t believe that there’s a serious definition at play there. The literal meaning, that other advocates for religious freedom are not pushing for social justice, seems misplaced, but SJW has generally been used, particularly on the right, to refer sarcastically to advocates that one disagrees with.”
I don’t think SJWs are religious freedom advocates at all, likewise I don’t think religious freedom advocates are SJWs. And while the definition is deeply anti intellectual & horrible something approaching a definition can be provided. It’s actually quite a specific worldview. I really don’t think it’s fair to say that the “right” uses it in that way. Some probably do especially some alt righters. But there are centrists, democrats, libertarians, etc that recognize this group. Prophetically Chesterton provided the definition many many years ago with his modern skeptic/man in revolt “speech.”
Thanks for that perspective. That’s ultimately why they didn’t change it because the school admins were only informed like a week before. The students claimed they had notified them like 3 months before but the faculty claimed that wasn’t true. Or if it was true they clearly had no idea what the kids meant. So if they had had 3 months that would have been enough time?
It really didn’t seem to cause much of a controversy because I think people understood those practical implications and I have a feeling that the observant Muslim parents were probably relieved.
I missed this.
I don’t really understand this comment at all. I mean is that a Mormon joke?
My MK HS had about 300 students at the time. And today I think it has closer to 500. That is still the biggest one in the world as far as I know but there’s a need. A lot of them are boarding schools. Mine was day and boarding. I’m also speaking from an evangelical perspective and I’ve never really understood the Orthodox perspective on “missions” so I also don’t really understand your domestic/foreign distinction.
And full disclosure I don’t actually believe Missions is a “real” thing in the evangelical sense so whatever the Orthodox view is probably makes more theological sense. I call the Evangelical view the Expatriate Nuclear Family Model or ENF model of Missions and I think it has really deep theological problems, including mild racism amongst other things. But it starts with an unbiblical understanding of ministry which is then compounded with the general Protestant fear of celibacy and monasticism. I’m trying to write a book about this and explain my experiences and the problems it’s caused in my own socialization.
It’s true that Anglicans kept it longer than most, but Luther fasted diligently and his followers maintained that tradition for centuries. Combined, Lutherans and Anglicans have been most Protestants, and they weren’t the only groups that maintained those implementations of our guidance.
Yes.
Huh. I did not know that. Do you have a link? I’d love to read more.
I meant that if you’re a missionary to Los Angeles, you’ll have an American K-12 system. There was no technical meaning, just that not all missionaries are the “encountering heretofore unmet cannibal tribes” variety. Orthodoxy globally, focuses on domestic missions because Communism hit Eastern Europe and the Middle East really hard. American Orthodoxy has more evangelical style missions, but it’s not as core as it is for y’all. For one thing, for most of the life of Orthodoxy, most Orthodox lived their whole lives either essentially out of communication with any non-believers or heterodox believers, or in parts of the world where missionary activity was a capital offense.
Huh. I’m not sure I follow, but I feel like I would be interested to learn more.
I’ve been to WR services, but I’m not a Catholic so there isn’t much point for me; it’s a derogation from the oldest liturgies for the sake of familiarity, meaning that if you’re less familiar with it you probably shouldn’t go.
If it’s a misunderstanding, it runs deep. From the Greek Orthodox Diocese of America website for today “Fast Day (Fish Allowed) | Fish, oil and wine are allowed. Refrain from meat, dairy and eggs.
Today we commemorate
Aquilina the Martyr of Syria
Triphyllos the Bishop of Nicosia
Epistle Reading: Romans 4:4-12
Gospel Reading: Matthew 7:15-21”
I’ve found the fasting regulations to be common to all Orthodox areas I’ve spent time (Turkey, the Arab Middle East, Greece, Cyprus, Eastern Europe) and to be in line with traditional (in the non-contemporary sense of the term) Catholic practice. They’re in the Typicon. I’m not sure what the evidence is for them dating to the 4th century, but they’re often referred to as being standardized at that point (obviously, people followed the scriptural injunctions to fast from the cruxifiction onwards, but the details of the regimen aren’t so clear).
Fasting was a frequent topic of conversation in my Theology master’s program, but I’m aware of no Orthodox debate on the matter. Then again, I’ve never met a neo-palamite, although I have known people who were fans of Lossky. Also, as the years have passed (16 so far), it’s possible that I blanked it out; if it is primarily a neo-platonic faction thing, it would not be the only doctrine of that sort that fell into the category of “thing that I was happy not to remember”, although I feel less irritated by neo-platonic theology today.
Again, I’d be interested to read more on the subject.
Yeah, in Europe. Baptists and evangelicals are bigger here.
Lutherans, anglicans, and methodists kept it. Others did not.
Globally. If you look at the context of the original issue, you will see that it is about the traditional practice of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. It would have been eccentric to focus one’s analysis of that on the Church in America.
Right. The OP was about an American contemporary issue. The traditional way to observe Lent didn’t come up until comment #30. There A.C. said this:
Whether the Catholics have been following an incorrect understanding of Lent since before Christianity came to America is not really a question best asked by looking at America in isolation, despite the fact that the question arose as a collateral issue in a question about American religious freedom.
@jamesofengland
Thst Mormon joke was funny, once I realized it was a joke.
“I’ve been to WR services, but I’m not a Catholic so there isn’t much point for me; it’s a derogation from the oldest liturgies for the sake of familiarity, meaning that if you’re less familiar with it you probably shouldn’t go.”
I’m confused here. When I say western rite in the context of Orthodoxy I mean The Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon most readily available in the St. Andrew’s Prayer book. Is that what you mean by WR?