A Return to Amoris Laetitia:The Vain Attempt to Accommodate Christianity to the Modern World and Its Distorted Values**.

 

At the presentation of Amoris Laetitia (AL)*, Christoph Cardinal Schoenborn famously said: “For me Amoris Laetitia is, first and foremost, a “linguistic event”, as was Evangelii gaudium. Something has changed in ecclesial discourse.” (emphasis mine)

A linguistic event? Boy howdy. Progressives love to manipulate (or is butcher the right word?) language for their cause:

  • support for abortion becomes known as being “pro-choice”
  • supporting banning guns and ammunition becomes known as “sensible gun control”
  • supporting increased taxation becomes known as “investing”
  • tolerance becomes known as “acceptance”
  • you get the idea

It is becoming so in the Church as well.

  • adulterous relationships become known as “irregular unions”
  • orthodox Catholics become known as “rigid and Pharisaical”
  • not holding to doctrine and Tradition becomes known as “pastoral care and personal discernment”
  • emphasis on mercy and attention to concrete situations becomes known as “if you follow your conscience you can do whatever you like”
  • a Church without orthodox leadership based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium becomes Protestant “an inclusive and decentralized Church”

These are the fruits of AL. And they are rotten.

Dioceses around the world are split on what was once settled practice following from the constant teaching of the Church: those not in a state of grace (i.e., in a state of mortal sin) are not to present themselves for Communion. But that has cratered under AL. The dioceses of Rome, Malta, and some in Argentina and Germany have now broken from what the universal Church holds to be the Truth. Doctrinal anarchy is resulting from this mess.

Building on Pope Francis’s celebrated maxim that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak,” Cardinal archbishop Joseph Tobin of Newark, NJ held a “pilgrimage” for so-called LGBT Catholics at his Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart and had no qualms about his priests offering Holy Communion to those living outside of the Church’s call to chastity. When asked whether he might talk about sin during this pilgrimage he said that “That sounds a little backhanded to me.”

Not to be outdone, Jesuit Fr. James Martin, who has become a progressive media darling and a vocal advocate for LGBT Catholics said that “Pretty much everyone’s lifestyle is sinful.” Umm, no. Phil Lawler sets him straight:

That statement is outrageous. In a sane world, Father Martin’s Jesuit superiors would order him to apologize. We are all sinners; we are all sinful. But we are not all engaged in sinful ways of life.

Not to be outdone by his brother Jesuit, Fr. Arturo Sosa Abascal, (the man known as the Black Pope as the head of the Jesuit order) has said that all Church doctrine must be open to discernment, even the words of Christ; and that the devil is just a social construct to help us understand evil.

But of course, these men have learned from Pope Francis who famously plays fast and loose with words. For instance:

No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! AL297.

And now, there are rumors circulating for a “reinterpretation” of Humanae Vitae. Buckle up.

As with all of the “linguistic events” of this papacy, the AL secret decoder ring will be required. We will certainly hear that “the object is not to change the doctrine” because, as with communion for the adulterous, “we don’t need to change the doctrine when we can do an end-run around it.”

The jargon and gibberish of these linguistic events of the Pope Francis era certainly do seem to be a vain attempt to accommodate Christianity to the modern world and its distorted values. And they remind me of something I recently read (modified to fit this essay):

There is a lesson (here). Perhaps the dumbest man in the room is not the man who cannot understand gibberish, but the man who cannot see gibberish for what it is. And perhaps the most dangerous people (in the Church) are those who understand this human weakness and take full, cynical advantage of it. Our (spiritual) problems have deep educational roots. Until the matters of jargon and gibberish are addressed, I suspect that things are unlikely to improve.


*Amoris laetitia (The Joy of Love, also known as AL) is the post-synodal apostolic exhortation written by Pope Francis. Dated 19 March 2016, it was released on 8 April 2016. It followed the Synods on the Family held in 2014 and 2015. One can go to my blog to find critique of this document (here, here, here, here, and here)

**I stole the second part of the title from Peter Kwasniewski, at NLM. He writes on liturgy.

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  1. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    KC Mulville (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment): My parents left the Church because my Father was denied communion, if I’m not mistaken.

    None of my business, but only to make the point that –if– he was denied communion because he was divorced and remarried, then that was because he chose a different way of life than what the Church teaches, not a debate over church teaching.

    No, it wasn’t over that.  He was a convert to Catholicism after marrying my Mother and I believe there was some manner of unpleasantness.  But this is merely an example of the fact that the Church finds ways to alienate even earnest seekers like my Father.

    • #61
  2. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot:

    • adulterous relationships become known as “irregular unions”
    • orthodox Catholics become known as “rigid and Pharisaical”

    Allow me as an outsider to address this directly for a moment.

    I think I am actually representative of a demographically large number of people in this country. Let’s call them “persuadables.” I, like many of them have parents who are lapsed Catholics, grandparents who are Catholics, and plenty of Aunts and Uncles who remain Catholic.

    I am divorced from my first wife and remarried to a lapsed Catholic. Am I therefore in an “adulterous relationship”? According to conservative Catholic teaching, the answer apparently is “yes.” By all rights, if I were to come to Church (I was baptized Catholic) I would be denied the Eucharist even if I presented myself in earnest.

    I’m friends with a Catholic whose parents are in this situation. The parents, who both consider themselves “still really Catholic” at heart, found a Lutheran church they could stand going to, where they’re eligible for communion (I think it’s ELCA Lutheran – at any rate, not a Lutheran church that still rails against the evils of Catholicism). They raised their children in that church,  since that’s the church they themselves attended, but encouraged their kids to attend Catholic outreach and rejoin the Catholic church. I know receiving the Eucharist outside the Catholic church, much less in the state of sin of being divorced, then remarried with children, is apparently considered even more wicked than just not receiving any kind of communion at all for Catholics, but it seems to me that under the circumstances, the family as a whole has done the best it could.

    Brief aside: this is the same Church that also can’t see its way clear to deny the host to those who are ardent supporters of abortion like Nancy Pelosi or philanderers like Ted Kennedy. </aside>

    What am I to make of this situation if I am one of those “persuadables”? It seems like a no-win scenario. Face a judgmental and (frankly) Pharisaical church hierarchy who treats my monogamous marriage in a worse fashion than any given Kennedy or go off and join the Methodists?

    If you could find a Lutheran or Episcopal church whose politics you could stand (not necessarily whose politics you agree with, but that you could stand, given the other benefits you received from going), would your family consider attending?

    I think some conservatives worry that going to a mainline protestant church might be even worse than not going to church at all. In my experience, though, it isn’t, especially churches devoted to continuing traditional church music (the sung word then provides the instruction the spoken word lacks).

    • #62
  3. KC Mulville Inactive
    KC Mulville
    @KCMulville

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):
    Posted for informational purposes – without further comment:

    https://cruxnow.com/interviews/2017/06/21/dont-think-francis-cure-dont-grasp-disease-cl-head-says/

    I read that this morning … great minds think alike, I guess … or visit the same websites.

    I enjoyed the part where Carron said that the “disease” is a world that has basically lost its motivation to get up in the morning.

    Carrón argued that what’s happened in modernity is that people have lost sight(sp) of what it means to be a human being, so the crisis is much deeper than simply the rejection of this or that ethical precept, and that what’s needed now is not so much moral exhortation or theological argument, but the attractive power of a fully Christian life.

    I emphatically agree. My own take is that too many people interpret “freedom” as individual choice in a world where the consumer (i.e., each individual) is always right. How could any church function when man – and not God – is the measure of all things? The church’s ace in the hole is that such a concept of freedom will never bring meaning, just an endless repetition of arbitrary choices. Only a church that lives out its sense of meaning can attract the people who find no meaning in their own lives.

    • #63
  4. KC Mulville Inactive
    KC Mulville
    @KCMulville

    Majestyk (View Comment): But this is merely an example of the fact that the Church finds ways to alienate even earnest seekers like my Father.

    Again, I don’t know the details, but the church is still very much dependent on human beings to carry out its mission. And we all know how efficient that could be. I know many a priest who should be imprisoned for pastoral malpractice.

    I think that’s why I became such a Francis supporter. Yeah, I’m biased because we were both Jesuits, but my enthusiasm for him comes from when I saw him urging clerics to get off their dead ass and go out and meet the flock. Being a priest shouldn’t be like being a moral critic, judging people from high above in the balcony. (That, and reforming the money and corruption.) Instead, when you observe sin, what do you do? Do you label it and point it out, or do you go the extra step and actually reach out to the sinner? How do you get those people back in flock?

    Sorry – I get enthusiastic over this stuff.

    • #64
  5. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    I’m friends with a Catholic whose parents are in this situation. The parents, who both consider themselves “still really Catholic” at heart, found a Lutheran church they could stand going to, where they’re eligible for communion (I think it’s ELCA Lutheran – at any rate, not a Lutheran church that still rails against the evils of Catholicism).

    The ELCA and Catholic Church reconciled their schism, with the Church of Rome conceding many of the Theological issues Luther raised.

    They raised their children in that church, since that’s the church they themselves attended, but encouraged their kids to attend Catholic outreach and rejoin the Catholic church. I know receiving the Eucharist outside the Catholic church, much less in the state of sin of being divorced, then remarried with children, is apparently considered even more wicked than just not receiving any kind of communion at all for Catholics, but it seems to me that under the circumstances, the family as a whole has done the best it could.

    Brief aside: this is the same Church that also can’t see its way clear to deny the host to those who are ardent supporters of abortion like Nancy Pelosi or philanderers like Ted Kennedy. </aside>

    What am I to make of this situation if I am one of those “persuadables”? It seems like a no-win scenario. Face a judgmental and (frankly) Pharisaical church hierarchy who treats my monogamous marriage in a worse fashion than any given Kennedy or go off and join the Methodists?

    If you could find a Lutheran or Episcopal church whose politics you could stand (not necessarily whose politics you agree with, but that you could stand, given the other benefits you received from going), would your family consider attending?

    No.  In our specific case there are larger ideological issues that my Wife and I have involving the fundamental credibility of religion in general.  I was merely talking about a large class of people in a demographic category similar to my own who are essentially beyond the reach of the Church.  Perhaps this is what they want.

    I was confirmed in the ELCA but that was a mistake I would undo if I could.  Honesty is important at a fundamental level, and being coerced into doing something you object to by your parents is no good reason for doing anything.

    • #65
  6. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    An idiot could draw the line straight from the mob calling for the blood of Jesus to be on their heads and their children’s heads to Auschwitz.

    This is an outrageous statement. I’ve tried to converse with you civilly but instead you spew out garbage like this. Take your bitterness and hatred of the Church elsewhere. You are adding nothing to this discussion.

    I wouldn’t say something this incendiary if it weren’t true. The official NAZI policy of Anti-Semitism and the wave of it which swept across Europe didn’t spring forth from the aether. It was felt in places as diverse as Jedwabne to Paris.

    I’m late to this thread so just now reading, but first off Nazi anything had nothing to do with Christianity ever- and I keep wondering why our friend Majestyk who is an outspoken atheist, is always drawn to church posts? Just asking, because the discussion diverts into finger pointing, rather than discussing the post topic?

    • #66
  7. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    KC Mulville (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment): My parents left the Church because my Father was denied communion, if I’m not mistaken.

    None of my business, but only to make the point that –if– he was denied communion because he was divorced and remarried, then that was because he chose a different way of life than what the Church teaches, not a debate over church teaching.

    No, it wasn’t over that. He was a convert to Catholicism after marrying my Mother and I believe there was some manner of unpleasantness. But this is merely an example of the fact that the Church finds ways to alienate even earnest seekers like my Father.

    Did your dad find another church?

     

    • #67
  8. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

     

    Did your dad find another church?

    Yes, they joined an ELCA branch and I was raised in it.

    • #68
  9. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    I’m late to this thread so just now reading, but first off Nazi anything had nothing to do with Christianity ever- and I keep wondering why our friend Majestyk who is an outspoken atheist, is always drawn to church posts? Just asking, because the discussion diverts into finger pointing, rather than discussing the post topic?

    I would disagree.  Surely, the larger Nazi aim was ultimately to displace Christianity with Aryan Blood Myths and other Pagan Gibberish, but the Concordat that the Church reached with the Nazis was a strategic stroke for the Nazis which lent credibility to their project from its earliest days in power.  It remains in force to this day.

    When you say “outspoken” I read merely “spoken” because there only ever seems to be a single voice, and I pick the spots where I choose to speak out.  I could just shut up entirely, but what good would that do?

    We could always discuss why Trump is incompetent, but that never gets any comments either. ;)

    • #69
  10. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    I Walton (View Comment):
    After such clear headed powerful intellects that he followed what are we to make of this man?

    That he is doing a disservice to the Church and is trying to bury Benedict.

    Let us not forget that the power of the Holy Spirit was upon the sacred Conclave and the College of Cardinals when they elected Jorge Bergoglio and elevated him to hold the Keys of St. Peter and wear the Fisherman’s Ring as Francis, Bishop of Rome.

    Surely these facts grant Francis the legitimacy to interpret the Church’s teachings as he sees fit, no?

    This is a good point. Those present when he was chosen Pope behind closed doors said that there were supernatural occurrences during the conclave that led them to that decision. But he is still just a man, and a very big target for the devil.  In fact, the New Testament describes these days, the time of testing when men’s hearts would grow cold and good would be perceived as evil and visa versa.

    • #70
  11. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    I’m late to this thread so just now reading, but first off Nazi anything had nothing to do with Christianity ever- and I keep wondering why our friend Majestyk who is an outspoken atheist, is always drawn to church posts? Just asking, because the discussion diverts into finger pointing, rather than discussing the post topic?

    I would disagree. Surely, the larger Nazi aim was ultimately to displace Christianity with Aryan Blood Myths and other Pagan Gibberish, but the Concordat that the Church reached with the Nazis was a strategic stroke for the Nazis which lent credibility to their project from its earliest days in power. It remains in force to this day.

    When you say “outspoken” I read merely “spoken” because there only ever seems to be a single voice, and I pick the spots where I choose to speak out. I could just shut up entirely, but what good would that do?

    We could always discuss why Trump is incompetent, but that never gets any comments either. ?

    I want to address the anti-Semitism issue.

    I agree with Maj that there is a long and tragic history of anti-Semitism in Christianity in general, and in the Catholic Church in particular.

    There are understandable historic reasons for this.  The Jewish leadership persecuted Christ, were instrumental in His death, and then persecuted the early Christians.  Christ said some extraordinary harsh things to the Jewish leadership.  It was easy for Christians to read these parts of the Gospels, throughout the centuries, as a basis for hatred against the Jews.

    I find this tragic.  It loses sight of the fact that, for example, Christ Himself was a Jew.  So were Peter, and Paul, and John, and all of the other Apostles.  Other than Luke, Acts, and possibly (but probably not) Hebrews, the entire New Testament was written by Jews.

    But anti-Semitism is not specifically Christian or Catholic.  Anti-Semitism is (or was) common among Muslims, pagan Nazis, and modern Leftists.  It seems to be universal, at least everywhere where there were enough Jews around to create an issue, with three exceptions.

    The exceptions are modern American Evangelical Christians, neoconservatives, and libertarians (like Maj).

    I don’t know enough about current American Catholic attitudes to determine whether there is significant lingering anti-Semitism.  I certainly think that there is not among American Catholics here at Ricochet, but I don’t know if they are representative.

     

    • #71
  12. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot:

    • adulterous relationships become known as “irregular unions”
    • orthodox Catholics become known as “rigid and Pharisaical”

    Allow me as an outsider to address this directly for a moment.

    I think I am actually representative of a demographically large number of people in this country. Let’s call them “persuadables.” I, like many of them have parents who are lapsed Catholics, grandparents who are Catholics, and plenty of Aunts and Uncles who remain Catholic.

    I am divorced from my first wife and remarried to a lapsed Catholic. Am I therefore in an “adulterous relationship”? According to conservative Catholic teaching, the answer apparently is “yes.” By all rights, if I were to come to Church (I was baptized Catholic) I would be denied the Eucharist even if I presented myself in earnest. Brief aside: this is the same Church that also can’t see its way clear to deny the host to those who are ardent supporters of abortion like Nancy Pelosi or philanderers like Ted Kennedy. </aside>

    What am I to make of this situation if I am one of those “persuadables”? It seems like a no-win scenario. Face a judgmental and (frankly) Pharisaical church hierarchy who treats my monogamous marriage in a worse fashion than any given Kennedy or go off and join the Methodists?

    Conservative Catholics point to “liberalization” as the reason behind the failure of the mainline protestant churches in this country. What is left unsaid in this is what they’d look like if they hadn’t liberalized. We don’t know what the results of that counterfactual situation looks like, but it seems likely that they wouldn’t be any healthier in terms of attendance today than they currently are.

    Certain small, conservative sects have experienced boomlets as those mainline pews have emptied out, but they’re not exactly the Lakewood Church led by the ghastly Joel Osteen or the bizarre (yet successful) Rick Warren.

    Conservative Catholics need to be careful what they wish for in this regard. You can have the Church you want, but having your cake means you might be left with nothing to eat.

    Maj, I wish that you were “persuadable” by Evangelicals.  It is unfortunate that Osteen and Warren seem to have turned you off to American Evangelicalism.

    I’ve regularly attended three baptist churches in Tucson since my conversion in 2004, and I think that you would find all three of them to be extremely welcoming to you and your family.  I don’t know whether the same would be true in Louisiana.

    I’m not sure why you found Warren to be bizarre, but I haven’t followed him much.  I did go to his church once, on a business trip to SoCal, for a very uplifting Holy Week service.

    • #72
  13. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):
    There are understandable historic reasons for this. The Jewish leadership persecuted Christ, were instrumental in His death, and then persecuted the early Christians. Christ said some extraordinary harsh things to the Jewish leadership. It was easy for Christians to read these parts of the Gospels, throughout the centuries, as a basis for hatred against the Jews.

    There was also a historical Roman basis for anti-Semitism – the Romans themselves were particularly hard on Jews after the diaspora.  Unlike other peoples the Romans conquered, the Jews had not only beaten but driven out.  As a homeless people with a religion at odds with paganism and hostile to Caesarism, the Jews were easily and particularly singled out, and that animosity predated (and likely influenced) early Christian anti-Semitism.  It is an old problem.

    • #73
  14. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    http://babylonbee.com/news/joel-osteens-bible-makes-daring-escape-abusive-owner/

    http://babylonbee.com/news/the-power-of-positive-declarations-osteen-takes-flight/

    http://babylonbee.com/news/joel-osteen-ordered-acquire-butchers-license-due-exegetical-methods/

    • #74
  15. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    I’m coming to the party a bit late but let me start with the Concordat reached with the Nazi government of Germany. The Church was well aware of the fact that the German government was going to violate the agreement before the ink was dry, and they did. It was entered into to give the Church the means to try and protect Catholic’s and Catholic properties and a means to at least have Church grievances heard. No more and no less. How the Nazi’s perceived the agreement was beyond the control of the Church.

    The major resistance movements in Germany were inspired by German Catholics, for example the White Rose movement, and this includes the most famous assassination attempt, Claus von Stauffenberg’s attempt to kill Hitler with a bomb. The resistance movement was centered in Catholic Bavaria. Nazi Party officials who claimed to be Catholic were not allowed a Catholic funeral Mass if they were to be buried in their uniforms, nor were party officials allowed to attend Mass in Nazi uniforms.

    The Vatican although aware of numerous plots to kill Hitler did not plan those attempts on Hitler’s life, nor did they forbid them. Dietrich Boenhoffer a Lutheran theologian had moral reservations about assassinating Hitler, but he changed his mind after Catholic priests explained the Catholic Just War Doctrine to him.

    Most of the garbage concerning Catholic cooperation with the Nazi’s comes from disaffected Catholics, Protestant anti-Catholic bigots, and Soviet misinformation.

    The truth of the matter is that the Church , according to some Jewish historians saved about 840,000 Jews. Far more than all the Allied Power’s combined saved.

    • #75
  16. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):
    Posted for informational purposes – without further comment:

    https://cruxnow.com/interviews/2017/06/21/dont-think-francis-cure-dont-grasp-disease-cl-head-says/

    I found the article interesting but puzzling when it was stated:

    One can’t understand the full dimensions of what Francis is doing if you don’t grasp the nature of what’s happening, the ‘epochal change.’ If your diagnosis doesn’t take that into account, certain gestures of this pope may not go down well. If you begin to understand the depths of the crisis, however, you’ll broaden your horizons and begin to see certain gestures as a prophetic response to this new situation.

    What is he talking about? Is his epochal change and depths of the crisis the same this post is about?

    And I don’t buy his argument that speaking of truth is simply telling people what to do:

    For example, the Pharisees, failing to see the full drama of the human situation facing them, wanted a preacher simply to tell people what to do, to put heavy burdens on them. That wasn’t enough to give humanity a new start, and then Jesus arrived and entered the house of Zacchaeus, without calling him a sinning thief, and that could have seemed too weak. Instead, no one ever challenged Zacchaeus the way Jesus did just by entering his house. All those others who condemned his way of life didn’t move him an inch from his position. It was that absolutely gratuitous gesture of Jesus that succeeded where others failed.

    Concern for humanity must point to the truth, eternity, and salvation. This is what is missing from this article. It is all about life in this world.

    • #76
  17. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    I am divorced from my first wife and remarried to a lapsed Catholic. Am I therefore in an “adulterous relationship”?

    I don’t know. Have you contacted a diocesan marriage tribunal to help you know if you were validly married the first time in the eyes of the Church? (And no, a decree of nullity is not a “Catholic divorce” – we’ve been through that before).

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Brief aside: this is the same Church that also can’t see its way clear to deny the host to those who are ardent supporters of abortion like Nancy Pelosi or philanderers like Ted Kennedy.

    I have written on the gutlessness of the bishops before. You will get no argument from me that this is a scandal.

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Face a judgmental and (frankly) Pharisaical church hierarchy who treats my monogamous marriage in a worse fashion than any given Kennedy or go off and join the Methodists?

    The Church first and foremost wants to know if what you have is a marriage. This is not Pharisaical, it is a search for truth.

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Conservative Catholics need to be careful what they wish for in this regard. You can have the Church you want, but having your cake means you might be left with nothing to eat.

    It is better to use the descriptor “orthodox” rather than “conservative”. Christ has assured us that the Church will not fail.

    Ultimately, this is about salvation. Does one disregard objective truth to seek pleasure in this life, or is ones eternal destiny more important. Jesus Christ, who came that we might have life more abundantly, offers us both.

    • #77
  18. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):
    I don’t know enough about current American Catholic attitudes to determine whether there is significant lingering anti-Semitism.

    Yet you feel confident to state that the Catholic Church is historically anti-Semitic. The Church has never had any anti-Semitic dogmas. Please take your arguments elsewhere – this post is dealing with other issues. Write your own post.

    • #78
  19. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    The exceptions are modern American Evangelical Christians, neoconservatives, and libertarians (like Maj).

    I don’t know enough about current American Catholic attitudes to determine whether there is significant lingering anti-Semitism. I certainly think that there is not among American Catholics here at Ricochet, but I don’t know if they are representative.

    I would encourage you to spend more time with the Libertarian Party and listening in specific to discussion of neo-conservatives before coming out too strongly in favor of the belief that libertarianism is a bulwark against anti-semitism. There are, of course, many libertarians who are not anti-semitic, but this is true of people of all political (and theological) stripes.

    • #79
  20. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):
    I don’t know enough about current American Catholic attitudes to determine whether there is significant lingering anti-Semitism.

    Yet you feel confident to state that the Catholic Church is historically anti-Semitic. The Church has never had any anti-Semitic dogmas. Please take your arguments elsewhere – this post is dealing with other issues. Write your own post.

    The Romans felt that the Jews had betrayed them because they had exempted the Jews from military service, the only people that had been conquered by Rome that had been given that exemption. Therefore the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD during the last revolt of the Zealots against Roman rule.

    There is no doubt that there have been anti-Semitic Catholic clerics, but it was not sanctioned in the Papal States in Italy. When Jews were persecuted in parts of Europe many fled to the Papal States. The Church did not have complete control over the behavior of some monarchs, or princes. Most of the persecution came from secular sources.

    Luther was very anti-Semitic, and became more so after he established his authority after the Reformation.

    God does not break his promises, and Christians should understand that although we believe Christ is the Messiah, and the fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism that does not mean God loves the Jewish people any less, and his promises to the Jewish people have not been broken.

     

    • #80
  21. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):
    I don’t know enough about current American Catholic attitudes to determine whether there is significant lingering anti-Semitism.

    Yet you feel confident to state that the Catholic Church is historically anti-Semitic. The Church has never had any anti-Semitic dogmas. Please take your arguments elsewhere – this post is dealing with other issues. Write your own post.

    My apologies.  I may have been unclear, and I didn’t mean to give offense.

    My comment was that “there is a long and tragic history of anti-Semitism in Christianity in general, and in the Catholic Church in particular.”  With respect to the Catholic Church, I was referring to persecutions in Western Europe in the Middle Ages, when the population was almost universally Catholic, at least nominally.

    As far as I know, you are correct that the Catholic Church never had any anti-Semitic dogmas, but I think that it is also true that many Catholics, including some clergy, participated in anti-Semitic activities (and even atrocities) in the Middle Ages. As I understand it, there were slaughters of Jews during the First Crusade.  There were mass burnings of Jews during the Black Death.  (To their credit, bishops and popes sought to suppress such anti-Semitic violence, both in the Crusades and the Black Death.)  There were expulsions from Catholic countries, ordered by Catholic monarchs.  There were significant disabilities placed on Jews at the Fourth Lateran Council (Pope Innocent III, 1213), which was an official action of the Church (among other things, it required Jews to wear special clothing and barred Jews from holding public office).

    • #81
  22. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    There are sinners in the Church???! Who knew?

    • #82
  23. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    I don’t want to give the impression that I’m picking on Catholics on the anti-Semitism issue.  My impression is that, until the last 70 years or so, almost everybody was anti-Semitic.  Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Muslims.  Nazis and Communists.  (I know, there were a number of Jewish leaders in the Communist movement, but I think that they were generally unbelievers of Jewish birth, not believing Jews.)

    I have little or no first-hand experience with non-Americans, but my impression is that the overwhelming majority of Muslims and Europeans are anti-Semitic, as are American Leftists.  Andrew Klavan’s memoir reports this with respect to the English.

     

    • #83
  24. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    The Catholic Church has many doctrines and expectations. Can the Church do any more than the Holy Spirit, other than knocking at the doors of hearts, suggesting, guiding its members, and the surrounding  community, to do what is right?

     

    • #84
  25. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):
    My apologies. I may have been unclear, and I didn’t mean to give offense.

    Fair enough, thank you.

    I mentioned in comment #26 that the Church had, has, and will have anti-Semites (as well as every other top of sinner) but we need to distinguish between what the Church teaches and how her members act. Not always a pretty sight.

    • #85
  26. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Arizona Patriot (View Comment):Maj, I wish that you were “persuadable” by Evangelicals. It is unfortunate that Osteen and Warren seem to have turned you off to American Evangelicalism.

    I mentioned them merely as highly visible examples of retail evangelicals.  My issue isn’t with them per se, although Osteen is a particularly egregious offender.  The issue is more elemental than that.

    My wife and I are engineers.  We’re skeptical.  We don’t find the supernatural claims of Christianity or any other religion to be credible.

    I’ve regularly attended three baptist churches in Tucson since my conversion in 2004, and I think that you would find all three of them to be extremely welcoming to you and your family. I don’t know whether the same would be true in Louisiana.

    My quarrel is not with people writ large.  I mean, there are some obnoxious or sinister characters in every organization, but most people are kind and welcoming.  That is generally not the issue.

    The issue is that I cannot in good conscience profess faith that I don’t possess.  That is lying, and would be unethical.

    I’m not sure why you found Warren to be bizarre, but I haven’t followed him much. I did go to his church once, on a business trip to SoCal, for a very uplifting Holy Week service.

    I find the sort who are mega-church pastors to be excellent entrepreneurs.  In Warren’s particular case his family situation is… Sad… Given his Son’s suicide.

    I myself really appreciate and felt as if my life was changed for the better by Dave Ramsey, but I have no truck with his theological claims.

    • #86
  27. Johnnie Alum 13 Inactive
    Johnnie Alum 13
    @JohnnieAlum13

    The religious authorities in Jerusalem were not unanimous about what stance to take toward Jesus. The Pharisees threatened to excommunicate his followers. To those who feared that “everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation,” the high priest Caiaphas replied by prophesying: “It is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.” The Sanhedrin, having declared Jesus deserving of death as a blasphemer but having lost the right to put anyone to death, hands him over to the Romans, accusing him of political revolt, a charge that puts him in the same category as Barabbas who had been accused of sedition. The high priests also threatened Pilate politically so that he would condemn Jesus to death.

    Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death

    The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!” a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

    . . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 596-597.

     

    • #87
  28. Johnnie Alum 13 Inactive
    Johnnie Alum 13
    @JohnnieAlum13

    All sinners were the authors of Christ’s Passion

    In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.” Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

    We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt.And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.

    Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 598.

    Yes they cite the Second Vatican Council.  They also cite the Roman Catechism of 1566.  The last line is from St. Francis of Assisi (died 1226).

    • #88
  29. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    I think some conservatives worry that going to a mainline protestant church might be even worse than not going to church at all. In my experience, though, it isn’t, especially churches devoted to continuing traditional church music (the sung word then provides the instruction the spoken word lacks).

    I agree.  A relationship with Christ is better than no religion at all.

    • #89
  30. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    I think I am actually representative of a demographically large number of people in this country. Let’s call them “persuadables.” I, like many of them have parents who are lapsed Catholics, grandparents who are Catholics, and plenty of Aunts and Uncles who remain Catholic.

    I am divorced from my first wife and remarried to a lapsed Catholic. Am I therefore in an “adulterous relationship”? According to conservative Catholic teaching, the answer apparently is “yes.” By all rights, if I were to come to Church (I was baptized Catholic) I would be denied the Eucharist even if I presented myself in earnest. Brief aside: this is the same Church that also can’t see its way clear to deny the host to those who are ardent supporters of abortion like Nancy Pelosi or philanderers like Ted Kennedy. </aside>

    What am I to make of this situation if I am one of those “persuadables”? It seems like a no-win scenario. Face a judgmental and (frankly) Pharisaical church hierarchy who treats my monogamous marriage in a worse fashion than any given Kennedy or go off and join the Methodists?

    I am incredibly sympathetic to you on this Majestyc.  A remarried Catholic winds up being a sinner that cannot be absolved of the sin without great turmoil to the family he/she now has, even if he regrets the path he took.  It is a near impossible situation.  I would urge going through the annulment process.  Some consider it hokey and just a form of Catholic divorce, but it does make sense.  I would say 90% of Catholic married couples go into their marriage without understanding the Catholic nature of marriage.  That is usually enough to justify an annulment.

    But you also have to understand why the Catholic refusal to accept divorce.  Yes, it’s in the Catechism but it’s there because Christ spoke directly against divorce:

    Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him,* saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?”  He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”  They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?”  He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.  I say to you,* whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”  (Matt 19:3-9)

    I’ve never understood how Protestants, who take almost everything literally in the Bible, completely ignore that.

    • #90
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