The Hit Squad

 

Do not make yourself a target for the Clintons.  This has been a rule for as long as we’ve known them.  If you get in their sights, bad things happen to you.  The latest case in point is Scott Adams, writer of the Dilbert comic strip who has turned his thoughts to blogging about the Trump phenomenon.  According to Adams, because he has been writing things favorable to Trump (something he would likely contest as he would claim that he was merely describing what he was seeing based on his own experience and training) he has seen his usual schedule of speaking engagements dropped.  This is rather similar to the usual practice of late for universities to disinvite conservative speakers.  Blogging on the election the way he has, has cost him financially.

As something of a semi-serious running joke, months ago Adams had endorsed Hillary for president for (as he put it) “my own personal safety” – this on the grounds that Hillary and the Democrats were painting Trump as a fascist while stirring race hatred, which all meant that if Trump did win there would be unprecedented post election violence.  Endorsing Hillary would therefore both deflect some attacks now, and would hopefully shield him if she lost.  Last week he changed his endorsement to Trump, in no small part for financial reasons:

The bottom line is that under Clinton’s plan, estate taxes would be higher for anyone with estates over $5 million(ish). I call this a confiscation tax because income taxes have already been paid on this money. In my case, a dollar I earn today will be taxed at about 50% by various government entities, collectively. With Clinton’s plan, my remaining 50 cents will be taxed again at 50% when I die. So the government would take 75% of my earnings from now on.

Yes, I can do clever things with trusts to avoid estate taxes. But that is just welfare for lawyers. If the impact of the estate tax is nothing but higher fees for my attorney, and hassle for me, that isn’t good news either.

You can argue whether an estate tax is fair or unfair, but fairness is an argument for idiots and children. Fairness isn’t an objective quality of the universe. I oppose the estate tax because I was born to modest means and worked 7-days a week for most of my life to be in my current position. (I’m working today, Sunday, as per usual.) And I don’t want to give 75% of my earnings to the government. (Would you?)

Things have changed for Adams since then.  One of Adams’s consistent observations has been that while Clinton has portrayed Trump as a fascist and his supporters as violent racists, especially as there has been a notable trend of violence at the fringes of Trump rallies, the real violence has nearly always been perpetrated by Clinton supporters.  Last week Adams asked his Twitter followers to send him examples of such violence, and that was when things escalated against Adams (emphasis mine):

This weekend I got “shadowbanned” on Twitter. It lasted until my followers noticed and protested. Shadowbanning prevents my followers from seeing my tweets and replies, but in a way that is not obvious until you do some digging.

Why did I get shadowbanned?

Beats me.

But it was probably because I asked people to tweet me examples of Clinton supporters being violent against peaceful Trump supporters in public. I got a lot of them. It was chilling.

Late last week my Twitter feed was invaded by an army of Clinton trolls (it’s a real thing) leaving sarcastic insults and not much else on my feed. There was an obvious similarity to them, meaning it was organized.

At around the same time, a bottom-feeder at Slate wrote a hit piece on me that had nothing to do with anything. Except obviously it was politically motivated. It was so lame that I retweeted it myself. The timing of the hit piece might be a coincidence, but I stopped believing in coincidences this year.

I get that Never Trump members here are unpersuaded by arguments against Hillary on things like the Supreme Court.  What I do not understand, though, is why they are unpersuaded by the simple observation that the Clintons (and the Democrats) actually do target their critics and work to destroy their careers and their lives.

I see many arguments of one sort or another that argue that Trump must lose now so that Conservatism (a term at this point of which I am increasingly leery) can spend the next 4 years rebuilding, and that Hillary must be so obviously terrible a president that we should be guaranteed a win in 2020.  Yet this fact remains – people who cross the Clintons often find their lives made suddenly very difficult.  Why is there such confidence that we would be allowed to even make the case against her?  Must we have an additional 4 years of an executive inflicting the IRS on political opponents?  Must we have an additional 4 years of the administration orchestrating with political activists to smear writers?  Why the confidence that in the next 4 years the Republicans will be allowed to rebuild without intimidation?

Finally I often see the Never Trump members here use some variant on the argument “if Trump is the solution, then the Republic is already beyond repair.”  It should be realized that in many respects our Republic is indeed damaged beyond repair.  A party that organizes national smear campaigns to discredit, humiliate, and ruin the careers of private citizens who dare criticize their operations, that is aided and abetted by tech companies like Twitter, is a party that has already decided the Republic and its governmental limitations do not apply to themselves.  Hillary’s embarrassing incompetence on national and international issues is bad enough (Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were also terrible), but the willingness to destroy the lives of critics and attempt to silence enemies should terrify us all.  Hillary has attempted to brand Trump as a fascist, but it is Hillary and the Democrats who are organizing armies to smash windows, burn cities, and riot.  It is they who are running the hit squads.  It is they who are the fascists.

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  1. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    • #91
  2. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Patrickb63:

    Majestyk:Or it could just be that Scott Adams is in possession of a monster ego or is a troll par excellence… Perhaps he simply sees in Trump a kindred spirit. A man of basically inexhaustible resources who shapes reality into whatever he wants it to be because he’s untouchable.

    The trouble is, reality isn’t for shaping. The reality is that this free-wheeling, egomaniacal style which places Trump or Adams in the center of the universe and has events revolving around him (Clinton’s hit squad is out to get me!) doesn’t match what’s really going on: When you make of yourself a target in the political arena and exit the arena of being a comic strip writer you can expect to take the hits that come with entering the octagon.

    If Adams finds those hits to be unpalatable, perhaps he should go back to the drawing board. Literally.

    Shorter version: If you don’t like Hillary Clinton and what her supporters do to you, shut up.

    Why am I having flashbacks to the Paris newspaper cartoon?  Do we even have a free press anymore, or real journalists who dig and scrape to find the truth, no matter what side it falls on? If you are ok with the Saul Alinsky view of life, the Clintons or Obama are perfect.  Trump has issues, but either way, we are going to have problems.  Don’t depend on government.

    • #92
  3. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk: Not that I care about those basement-dwelling anime fappers

    Maj, just…just don’t do this.

    This is why we got Trump in the first place.

    I wouldn’t say it or anything like it under ordinary circumstances.

    If you read the comments beneath that video, the sort of bile that is on display there deserves that manner of condemnation.  That Trump is unwilling or unable to say to his followers that the sort of rhetoric on display there is unacceptable says unfortunate things about him and his perception of politics.

    • #93
  4. MSJL Thatcher
    MSJL
    @MSJL

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Has Jonah lost any revenue sources on TV or speaking gigs?

    He related as much to me in person. Look at the number of times he used to appear on Fox prior to his NeverTrump position as now. It is a marked drop.

    Shame to hear that, though I wonder how much of that is due to the usual pressures of these commentariat shows. If Jonah was deemed as having nothing new to add, or they had an overabundance of disaffected conservatives, then I could see why he would be dropped.

    Personally I never could stand such shows so never have watched them (haven’t had cable in 8 years now anyway) and have no idea who is up and who is down on them.

    You clearly don’t watch Fox News much.

    It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever.

    Didn’t Jonah address this on one of the podcasts?  I think the reason is much less due to malice than market.  I think he said something to the effect that the news channels are trying to find people to pit Hillary supporters vs. Trump supporters.  There was simply not much of a market these days for anti-Hillary/anti-Trump conservatives.

    • #94
  5. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    livingthehighlife:

    skipsul:

    Aaron Miller: It just struck me as odd to cite Clinton’s threats and abusive habits without mentioning Trump’s.

    It was not my intent to write a compare and contrast post, merely to highlight known dangers from crossing the Clintons.

    And take shots at NeverTrumps. The ongoing obsession continues to amuse.

    I’d hardly call responding to specific arguments of theirs (specifically the two points that Trump must lose to let the party rebuild, and if Trump is truly the answer then the Republic is already done for) as “taking shots”.  If I presented those arguments unfairly then it would be one matter, but I’m simply saying I understand those arguments yet disagree.

    • #95
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: Once you start highlighting the shameful ways NeverTrumpers like Jonah have been treated – including losing speaking gigs, revenue sources on TV and subjected to the vilest commentary including anti-Semitism on Twitter I’ll start taking you seriously about how terrible the other side is, okay?

    The issue comes down to who is doing it. Is what Jonah has experienced organized by Trump, or is it the outpouring of dispersed lunatics?

    I have seen no evidence that this is an organized by the Clinton campaign. Only supposition on Adam’s part and yours.

    Of course it’s not “organized” by the Clinton campaign, any more than Thomas Becket’s murder was organized by Henry II.  Back during the first Clinton administration a lot of Democrats sacrificed their intelligence in order not to be able to understand this.

    • #96
  7. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    Majestyk:

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk: Not that I care about those basement-dwelling anime fappers

    Maj, just…just don’t do this.

    This is why we got Trump in the first place.

    I wouldn’t say it or anything like it under ordinary circumstances.

    If you read the comments beneath that video, the sort of bile that is on display there deserves that manner of condemnation. That Trump is unwilling or unable to say to his followers that the sort of rhetoric on display there is unacceptable says unfortunate things about him and his perception of politics.

    If everyone spent time condemning comments on the internet we’d be busy doing nothing else.

    There’s a theory the guys at Penny Arcade call “John Gabriel’s Greater Internet [Commenter] Theory” (no relation to our own @exjon but I’d bet he agrees) about people on the internet that they published in 2004 – I’ve never seen anything to contradict it.

    • #97
  8. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    Would it be unkind of me to mention innuendo and supposition here?

    • #98
  9. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    MSJL:

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Has Jonah lost any revenue sources on TV or speaking gigs?

    He related as much to me in person. Look at the number of times he used to appear on Fox prior to his NeverTrump position as now. It is a marked drop.

    Shame to hear that, though I wonder how much of that is due to the usual pressures of these commentariat shows. If Jonah was deemed as having nothing new to add, or they had an overabundance of disaffected conservatives, then I could see why he would be dropped.

    Personally I never could stand such shows so never have watched them (haven’t had cable in 8 years now anyway) and have no idea who is up and who is down on them.

    You clearly don’t watch Fox News much.

    It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever.

    Didn’t Jonah address this on one of the podcasts? I think the reason is much less due to malice than market. I think he said something to the effect that the news channels are trying to find people to pit Hillary supporters vs. Trump supporters. There was simply not much of a market these days for anti-Hillary/anti-Trump conservatives.

    He could have been being politic – given Ailes’s decamping Fox News after the scandal to the Trump administration (which doesn’t look good either) his being excluded from Fox News due to pro-Trump sentiment at the network makes sense to me.

    • #99
  10. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    You cannot be serious. Ok, there is Fox News. Although I would say that National Review, the Weekly Standard, Commentary, The Federalist etc…. also have a presence. I do notice Bill Kristol is still out there to expound his never Trump stance on Network television, so does George Will and Peggy Noonan (I like these people just pointing out the Never Trump stance is not as detrimental as you are trying to portray)

    The left is a much bigger presence. From the majority of the media, Hollywood, Academia, the Government, Silicon Valley and all the George Soros backed entities. A few very nasty trolls on Twitter is not on the same scale, as the left

    • #100
  11. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    Would it be unkind of me to mention innuendo and supposition here?

    You beat me to it since I’m trying to be good.

    • #101
  12. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    That could be, but the Democrats have trillions of dollars and control of large portions of the economy in order to make it effective.  Government workers can do this on government time, using government resources.  They control most of the news media and the academy.  The Democrats have a multi-trillion-dollar hate machine at their disposal.  The right would struggle to put together a billion-dollar hate machine.

    • #102
  13. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    Would it be unkind of me to mention innuendo and supposition here?

    That Fox News has acted that was is fact. That it was directed by the Trump campaign would be supposition and innuendo – I never made such a claim.

    • #103
  14. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    skipsul:I’d hardly call responding to specific arguments of theirs (specifically the two points that Trump must lose to let the party rebuild, and if Trump is truly the answer then the Republic is already done for) as “taking shots”. If I presented those arguments unfairly then it would be one matter, but I’m simply saying I understand those arguments yet disagree.

    To address these arguments directly, it’s not a matter of saying that Trump “must lose” in order for the party to rebuild – it’s that Trump can’t win.  We, as a party, have made a colossal blunder in nominating him – “Starting a land war in Asia” colossal.

    We are going to have to spend not just the next cycle but probably the next couple of cycles begging the American electorate to forgive us as a movement and as a party for having subjected them to this – not merely Trump, who will disappear as flatulence in the breeze, but for failing to produce an even marginally acceptable alternative and as a result, the default will be to elect this soulless lich-queen as President.

    The people of this country will hold us in disdain for our failure in this regard for much longer than the imagined failures of budget crises and government shutdowns.

    • #104
  15. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Mate De:

    Jamie Lockett:

    skipsul:

    Jamie Lockett: It’s not just Jonah, although he is the most visible, many other National Review writers have seen their appearances nosedive since Trump won the nomination. The right is just as vindictive as the left when it comes to breaking ranks. See: every anti-NeverTrump post on Ricochet ever

    I’m not disputing the existence of vindictiveness. I am disputing the scale, the methods, and the organization.

    Given the outsized presence of Fox News on the right I’d say that right wing vindictiveness is pretty large, well organized and uses similar methods.

    You cannot be serious. Ok, there is Fox News. Although I would say that National Review, the Weekly Standard, Commentary, The Federalist etc…. I do notice Bill Kristol is still out there to expound his never Trump stance on Network television, so does George Will and Peggy Noonan (I like these people just pointing out the Never Trump stance is not as detrimental as you are trying to portray)

    The left is a much bigger presence. From the majority of the media, Hollywood, Academia, the Government, Silicon Valley and all the George Soros backed entities. A few very nasty trolls on Twitter is not on the same scale, as the left

    And they have affect Adams how? He lost one speech? Got shadowbanned by twitter Hardly the Leftist Barbarians massing at the gates of Rome.

    As for the twitter shadowbanning…well I know at least one man is skeptical:

    • #105
  16. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    skipsul:

    livingthehighlife:

    skipsul:

    Aaron Miller: It just struck me as odd to cite Clinton’s threats and abusive habits without mentioning Trump’s.

    It was not my intent to write a compare and contrast post, merely to highlight known dangers from crossing the Clintons.

    And take shots at NeverTrumps. The ongoing obsession continues to amuse.

    I’d hardly call responding to specific arguments of theirs (specifically the two points that Trump must lose to let the party rebuild, and if Trump is truly the answer then the Republic is already done for) as “taking shots”. If I presented those arguments unfairly then it would be one matter, but I’m simply saying I understand those arguments yet disagree.

    I should also add:

    If I didn’t want to debate with y’all about these things, I either wouldn’t have posted, or I’d have done some gauntlet flinging at the end, spiced with moral condemnation at NTers, all baked in a cake of smug pudding (with plenty of fat plumbs soaked in brandy).  I disagree (strongly) with the NT position, I hope to argue them out of it, but I neither dispute the sincerity of their positions nor censure their personal morals for holding them.

    • #106
  17. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    Austin Murrey:

    EDISONPARKS:

    Majestyk:

    EDISONPARKS:Those egomaniacal Tea Party groups to this day still think they were targeted by the IRS as some sort of wacky Left Wing conspiracy to shut down organized political opposition from the Right. (Obama’s hit squad is out to get me!)

    These sorts of bullying tactics carry with them a cost: the cost is that you elevate the target of those tactics. How many people parlayed their scrutiny from the Obama administration into Fox News gigs or breathless interviews with Breitbart or shrieking headlines on Drudge?

    In this way, they choose the form of the destructor.

    I remember in 2008 the Obama campaign organized a mass listener call in to WGN 720 Radio when Milt Rosenberg had Stanley Kurtz as a guest. All the callers would basically berate the mild mannered host and guest, thus making the usual back and forth listener call in conversation impossible, eventually the show abandoned that evenings listener call in portion of the program. Who would have thought that these very same thugs would some day use the IRS to bully people into silence, the notion seemed implausible at the time.

    The goal is not a two sided back and forth, the goal is intimidation to get you (but more importantly those observing the process) to shut the EFF up, and let the Left do what they want.

    Unfortunately the Right, this tactic is working very well for the Left.

    Just who has shut up? Now, I’m not going to defend what seems like the illegal use of the IRS to target people for selective prosecution, but Media Matters and the various other leftist enforcers in the media are well within their rights to do what they do. That’s the consequence of a free and open society.

    Pretty courageous statement for free speech from a guy writing under a pseudonym.

    Maj has gone on FoxNews, under his real name no less, about one of his posts here. He actually appeared live and in person about Marco Rubio having a chance to win the primaries.

    That was pretty damn courageous given the way the primaries were going and did go.

    I tried to delete the comment(haven’t figured out how to).

    Since it got out there,  I apologize to Majestyk,  my comment was out of line.

    More importantly (although I did not know it at the time) my comment was wrong: “Maj has gone on FoxNews, under his real name no less”

    My bad!

    • #107
  18. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    I am merely pointing out that the scale of power to silence people is far bigger on the left then the right. Which is what you seemed to be arguing that the right is just as powerful. Unless I’m wrong, if I am please clarify.

    Scott Adams is a big boy and expects people to react irrationally, I don’t think he’s upset about this. It likely just reinforces his postion that all people are irrational.

    • #108
  19. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Majestyk: To address these arguments directly, it’s not a matter of saying that Trump “must lose” in order for the party to rebuild – it’s that Trump can’t win. We, as a party, have made a colossal blunder in nominating him – “Starting a land war in Asia” colossal.

    [snip]

    Well, to be fair that’s a slightly different argument than I usually encounter.  Again, I disagree, this time on the grounds that the GOP had already done a fair job damaging itself over the last 20 years.  It would have taken Hillary about 5 minutes to have turned (for instance) Cruz into a racist religious zealot just due to the GOP’s continued tone deafness on racial issues.

    • #109
  20. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk:

    I wouldn’t say it or anything like it under ordinary circumstances.

    If you read the comments beneath that video, the sort of bile that is on display there deserves that manner of condemnation. That Trump is unwilling or unable to say to his followers that the sort of rhetoric on display there is unacceptable says unfortunate things about him and his perception of politics.

    If everyone spent time condemning comments on the internet we’d be busy doing nothing else.

    There’s a theory the guys at Penny Arcade call “John Gabriel’s Greater Internet [Commenter] Theory” (no relation to our own @exjon but I’d bet he agrees) about people on the internet that they published in 2004 – I’ve never seen anything to contradict it.

    The point Austin is that the hands of many people who complain about Hillary Clinton’s online or media empire and their intimidation of ideological opponents are just as filthy.

    Moreover, Trump’s effect hasn’t been to elevate the dialogue, it’s been to coarsen it – and to reduce the right to backbiting as a result.

    • #110
  21. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    skipsul:

    Majestyk: To address these arguments directly, it’s not a matter of saying that Trump “must lose” in order for the party to rebuild – it’s that Trump can’t win. We, as a party, have made a colossal blunder in nominating him – “Starting a land war in Asia” colossal.

    [snip]

    Well, to be fair that’s a slightly different argument than I usually encounter. Again, I disagree, this time on the grounds that the GOP had already done a fair job damaging itself over the last 20 years. It would have taken Hillary about 5 minutes to have turned (for instance) Cruz into a racist religious zealot just due to the GOP’s continued tone deafness on racial issues.

    In my opinion a large part of it is our consultants who are hapless or hopeless.

    The idea that the candidates could win a fact-based, reasoned national campaign against a corrupt Democrat who spouts talking points, deflects any questions, has a terrible record on the issues and who’s been in the public eye for 30 years while damaging themselves every time they speak was disproven in the primary when they all lost to Trump.

    Still unbelievable. If I woke up tomorrow and found out this was all a dream it would make more sense to me.

    • #111
  22. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    Majestyk:

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk:

    I wouldn’t say it or anything like it under ordinary circumstances.

    If you read the comments beneath that video, the sort of bile that is on display there deserves that manner of condemnation. That Trump is unwilling or unable to say to his followers that the sort of rhetoric on display there is unacceptable says unfortunate things about him and his perception of politics.

    If everyone spent time condemning comments on the internet we’d be busy doing nothing else.

    There’s a theory the guys at Penny Arcade call “John Gabriel’s Greater Internet [Commenter] Theory” (no relation to our own @exjon but I’d bet he agrees) about people on the internet that they published in 2004 – I’ve never seen anything to contradict it.

    The point Austin is that the hands of many people who complain about Hillary Clinton’s online or media empire and their intimidation of ideological opponents are just as filthy.

    Moreover, Trump’s effect hasn’t been to elevate the dialogue, it’s been to coarsen it – and to reduce the right to backbiting as a result.

    No argument from me, although I would protest lumping @skipsul in that group of complainers about Hillary’s online cohort.

    • #112
  23. Duane Oyen Member
    Duane Oyen
    @DuaneOyen

    Quote: I get that Never Trump members here are unpersuaded by arguments against Hillary on things like the Supreme Court. What I do not understand, though, is why they are unpersuaded by the simple observation that the Clintons (and the Democrats) actually do target their critics and work to destroy their careers and their lives. 

    Er, no.  We are unpersuaded that the vote over whether we put in office a Narcissistic 4 year old who favors Putin actions and strategies and killing NATO so that buddy Putin has an easier time of it re-annexing Estonia, who uses the National Enquirer as his newspaper of record, and who accuses a prior president of active treason is fit for the office, ought to be based on whether the Clintons are mean to Adams, et al.  Where is the surprise here?  He knew what guns would be aimed at him if he opposed Hillary.

    It is axiomatic that Clinton targets critics and endeavors to destroy their careers and lives (as Trump also does, albeit less successfully, probably because he does not think it through are actually have a, you know, workable strategy).  Hillary and her cohorts should- please, lord of the universe- disappear.  But the lefty Trump is as bad over all, SCOTUS notwithstanding- even if he actually took time off from pushing universal free day care to appoint a decent person.

    We just need to get over this nightmare and tread water for 4 years regardless of who “wins”.

    • #113
  24. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    skipsul:

    Majestyk: To address these arguments directly, it’s not a matter of saying that Trump “must lose” in order for the party to rebuild – it’s that Trump can’t win. We, as a party, have made a colossal blunder in nominating him – “Starting a land war in Asia” colossal.

    [snip]

    Well, to be fair that’s a slightly different argument than I usually encounter. Again, I disagree, this time on the grounds that the GOP had already done a fair job damaging itself over the last 20 years. It would have taken Hillary about 5 minutes to have turned (for instance) Cruz into a racist religious zealot just due to the GOP’s continued tone deafness on racial issues.

    You’re right – but Cruz, for all of his caviling and calculating pretension is nonetheless a disciplined politician who would have skinned Hillary in that debate and would have continued the skinning in the upcoming two.

    At least we would have enjoyed the fleeting benefits of having a natural politician in this role which means that for once we would have had the advantage on that front against the flat-footed and screechy Hillary.

    • #114
  25. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Austin Murrey:

    skipsul:

    Majestyk: To address these arguments directly, it’s not a matter of saying that Trump “must lose” in order for the party to rebuild – it’s that Trump can’t win. We, as a party, have made a colossal blunder in nominating him – “Starting a land war in Asia” colossal.

    [snip]

    Well, to be fair that’s a slightly different argument than I usually encounter. Again, I disagree, this time on the grounds that the GOP had already done a fair job damaging itself over the last 20 years. It would have taken Hillary about 5 minutes to have turned (for instance) Cruz into a racist religious zealot just due to the GOP’s continued tone deafness on racial issues.

    In my opinion a large part of it is our consultants who are hapless or hopeless.

    The idea that the candidates could win a fact-based, reasoned national campaign against a corrupt Democrat who spouts talking points, deflects any questions, has a terrible record on the issues and who’s been in the public eye for 30 years while damaging themselves every time they speak was disproven in the primary when they all lost to Trump.

    Still unbelievable. If I woke up tomorrow and found out this was all a dream it would make more sense to me.

    mikemurphy

                 How dare you! I resemble that remark!

    • #115
  26. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk:

    The point Austin is that the hands of many people who complain about Hillary Clinton’s online or media empire and their intimidation of ideological opponents are just as filthy.

    Moreover, Trump’s effect hasn’t been to elevate the dialogue, it’s been to coarsen it – and to reduce the right to backbiting as a result.

    No argument from me, although I would protest lumping @skipsul in that group of complainers about Hillary’s online cohort.

    “Many” need not include “Skipsul” who is my pal and I certainly wouldn’t tar him as a Hillary supporter.

    I understand his reluctant Trump position and given that he lives in Ohio, do not envy the difficulty of his position.

    • #116
  27. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    EDISONPARKS:I tried to delete the comment(haven’t figured out how to).

    Since it got out there, I apologize to Majestyk, my comment was out of line.

    More importantly (although I did not know it at the time) my comment was wrong: “Maj has gone on FoxNews, under his real name no less”

    My bad!

    It’s fine.  No need to apologize.  I don’t exactly try to get drinks in bars with my “fame,” if you know what I mean…

    The stuff I do here is far more important than a 2-minute hit on Fox – and I’m far more proud of it in the final analysis.

    • #117
  28. Austin Murrey Inactive
    Austin Murrey
    @AustinMurrey

    Majestyk:

    EDISONPARKS:I tried to delete the comment(haven’t figured out how to).

    Since it got out there, I apologize to Majestyk, my comment was out of line.

    More importantly (although I did not know it at the time) my comment was wrong: “Maj has gone on FoxNews, under his real name no less”

    My bad!

    It’s fine. No need to apologize. I don’t exactly try to get drinks in bars with my “fame,” if you know what I mean…

    The stuff I do here is far more important than a 2-minute hit on Fox – and I’m far more proud of it in the final analysis.

    He says that but if Marco had ended up winning the primaries you know Maj would have taken credit ;)

    • #118
  29. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk:

    EDISONPARKS:I tried to delete the comment(haven’t figured out how to).

    Since it got out there, I apologize to Majestyk, my comment was out of line.

    More importantly (although I did not know it at the time) my comment was wrong: “Maj has gone on FoxNews, under his real name no less”

    My bad!

    It’s fine. No need to apologize. I don’t exactly try to get drinks in bars with my “fame,” if you know what I mean…

    The stuff I do here is far more important than a 2-minute hit on Fox – and I’m far more proud of it in the final analysis.

    He says that but if Marco had ended up winning the primaries you know Maj would have taken credit ?

    And he would have been going after the All Star panel.  Screw Jonah.

    • #119
  30. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Austin Murrey:

    Majestyk:

    It’s fine. No need to apologize. I don’t exactly try to get drinks in bars with my “fame,” if you know what I mean…

    The stuff I do here is far more important than a 2-minute hit on Fox – and I’m far more proud of it in the final analysis.

    He says that but if Marco had ended up winning the primaries you know Maj would have taken credit ?

    The future is an undiscovered country, and I’ll be there staking my claim should it come to pass. :D

    • #120
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