Resolved: Lt. Commander Data Is Not a Person

 

LT Commander dataStar Trek is a frequent topic of conversation at Ricochet, and with a new Trek feature film and new Television series impending, it’s a topic which once again merits some discussion.

At its finest, Star Trek is much less space opera than it is high-concept science fiction which explores philosophical issues using the trappings of space travel as a backdrop. I have several thoughts that I’d like to get people’s take on.

Since I was young, I’ve been fascinated by the ninth episode of season 2, of The Next Generation called The Measure of a Man.

In this episode, The Enterprise arrives at a star base whereupon a Starfleet researcher, Commander Bruce Maddox, insists that Data accompany him to essentially be disassembled and studied in order to be copied. In due course, Data would be reassembled, his memories restored and be free to continue his service to Starfleet.

Data refuses to have what is at best, a speculative mechanical procedure performed on him, and when ordered to undergo it, he resigns from Starfleet in protest.

Much high courtroom drama ensues when Riker (prosecution) and Picard (Data’s defense) are pitted against one another by a Starfleet magistrate to argue for or against the idea that Data is Starfleet’s property, and thus has no right to decline being taken apart.

Various tests are undertaken to demonstrate that Data is a man-made machine and not human – for instance, he displays unnatural strength, is able to calculate tremendously large numbers and can retain vast quantities of information. Data is synthetic, and Riker pointedly demonstrates this by removing one of Data’s limbs and then switching him off.

Shocked at Riker’s ruthlessness, Picard retreats to the counsel of barkeep Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg… come on, it was the late 80’s) who hands Picard the key to winning any argument: comparing a situation you don’t like to slavery and then changing the subject from the matter at hand.

Guinan’s contention is that, if allowed to have his way, Maddox would essentially be copying Data into a whole race of androids (a race of Datum?) which would have been the equivalent of “disposable people” or “slaves” belonging to the Federation, being sent on various dangerous missions (replicate some Red Shirts!) or as an inexhaustible supply of soldiers.

The second part – the changing of the subject – is where Picard’s argument goes far off the rails. The Captain challenges the court to show that Data isn’t sentient after showing that Data is both intelligent and self-aware. Aside from the absurdity of being forced to prove a negative (the burden of proof should always lie with the party making extraordinary claims) which the Magistrate should have rejected on the grounds of Popperian unfalsifiability there are other issues at hand as well.

First off, even though Data is a cunningly devised human simulacrum designed to allow humans to interact with him in a natural fashion, he nonetheless lacks the capacity to experience emotions. While surely the Lt. Commander could pass the Turing Test he also equally lacks the ability to form emotional bonds or experience love, which are critical features of the human experience.

Second is the question of whether or not Data is actually even alive. While there are plenty of examples of life that we can point to which are unusual (even in a galaxy as diverse as Star Trek’s) it’s hard to argue that Data actually fits into any of those categories. Life at its most granular level is a self-perpetuating chemical reaction. Even viruses are not considered to be living organisms while bacteria are. By comparison, Data lacks many of the features of even a simple paramecium.

He cannot replicate himself, and did not lose such ability through age or damage. He is capable of being dismembered and reassembled with little consequence, as is put on display multiple times. Also, unlike sentient biological entities he exhibits the limited ability to transfer his consciousness into a new body, meaning he cannot suffer biological death. Even the normal cessation of mental activity which would define brain death or the end of consciousness for biological entities is defied by Data. If Data is alive, he certainly displays characteristics far outside of the normal parameters of what is considered “life.”

Lastly there is the human component to be considered. In “The Measure of a Man” it is ultimately decided that Data is not Starfleet property and has the ability for self determination. Data makes the decision that he will not undergo Commander Maddox’s procedure and continues with Starfleet. It’s hard to tell how many lives this decision ends up costing the Federation.

For instance, when the Federation ultimately engages in war with the Dominion, think of the possibilities: perhaps they could have warships crewed mostly by autonomous androids. Even if each Datum had 75% of Data’s capabilities this might be a bonus because they would have most of the capabilities but correspondingly less sense of self and therefore follow orders unflinchingly but make combat decisions flawlessly. This robot army would represent a massive strategic advantage to the Federation against the Founders without facing the ethical dilemmas of sending humans or other sentient beings into battle. What is dead can never die, after all.

So, it is resolved. Not only is Lt. Commander Data not a person… he isn’t even alive. Under that heading, the Federation should have copied him to the best of their abilities to save the lives of those who could die.

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  1. Joe P Member
    Joe P
    @JoeP

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad:

    Valiuth:

    I think it is well established that in fact there is no metaphysics in Star Trek. Every possibility of metaphysics has a clear scientific explanation even if it is a made up one. Therefore there is no afterlife for any of the characters. Death means oblivion for all.

    Captain Sisko in DS9 becomes a god, one of the “wormhole aliens,” or Bajoran Prophets. Jadzia Dax is welcomed into Sto’vo’kor. So I can’t agree.

    It’s made pretty clear that the Prophets are not metaphysical entities, but really different, advanced aliens. I don’t recall any proof that Sto’vo’kor exists or the Jadzia was welcomed there aside from the statements of living Klingons (though this I remember less clearly). So that’s pretty thin proof.

    • #61
  2. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Amy Schley:

    Majestyk: It’s clear that Data is an artifact of human technology capable of being “downloaded” with perfect fidelity whereas biological entities cannot be.

    Except he can’t be — his creator couldn’t make exact copies of him, and nor could he when he tried. The best Data could do were provide memory ingrams to B4, but those are more akin to super accurate memoirs than copies of his own consciousness.

    Isn’t it the case that both biological and mechanical entities are reproduced with perfect accuracy every time they travel by transporter?  I have never been able to figure out any explanation for transporter technology that would allow the transporter to reassemble a person, but not assemble a duplicate of that person.  Even if you posit that the original physical substance of the person, at a submolecular level, is physically moved over a beam of energy (which does not seem possible), there is no reason that I can see why an identical bundle of atoms or quarks or whatever could not be assembled into a duplicate of the original.

    This also raises the question of whether a person’s soul (assuming there is such a thing) can be re-installed in the person during the process of reassembly after the person goes through the transporter.  I think Dr. McCoy touched on this question one time, but after his usual grumbling he dropped the question.

    Maybe John would care to opine on these issues.

    • #62
  3. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Valiuth:No, its not dynamite it is simply sympathetic energy transmission. The integration of the ships circuits is such that destruction of a part of the ship leads to an overload of all panels connected to that section.

    That’s absurd, of course.  Circuit breakers and switchgear were somehow un-invented in the 25th century?

    • #63
  4. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Amy Schley:

    Far from cheating death, he has experienced more than anyone, save perhaps Ensign Kim (to whom Death comes as a sweet temporary release from being Janeway’s butt monkey.)

    Like!

    • #64
  5. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Majestyk:

    Valiuth:No, its not dynamite it is simply sympathetic energy transmission. The integration of the ships circuits is such that destruction of a part of the ship leads to an overload of all panels connected to that section.

    That’s absurd, of course. Circuit breakers and switchgear were somehow un-invented in the 25th century?

    Yes, well how else are you going to show the consequences of deck 34 being blown up? Its not like you can just make a set for each damaged section.

    • #65
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Well, the judge in this case wasn’t reasoning very clearly. Maybe Picard wasn’t either; I don’t recall.

    But most or all of your evidence is irrelevant, isn’t it?  So what if he’s not a human?  That’s an accurate premise providing no support at all for the conclusion that he’s not a person.

    Consulting the dictionary, written by and for humans, we have 7 definitions of “person.”  Definitions 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 do not apply to Data, Worf, Spock, Sarek, Garak, Nog, Troi, or Gowron because they aren’t human.  So they are all non-persons by those definitions, and if those are the legally relevant ones then Vulcans and Betazoids shouldn’t have rights in the Federation either.

    Obviously they do have rights, and the relevant definition is number 5: “a self-conscious or rational being.”  (Note: I think this is poorly phrased; it should have been “self-conscious and rational.”)

    Granting that he’s non-human, the important question is this: Is Data self-conscious and rational?  That is all that matters to his personhood.

    • #66
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    3 likes that fast?  I fear someone made (perhaps unintentionally) use of the click-fast-to-generate-extra-likes bug.

    • #67
  8. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Saint Augustine:

    Is Data self-conscious and rational? That is all that matters to his personhood.

    Uh oh. I hope this doesn’t go here.

    • #68
  9. KC Mulville Inactive
    KC Mulville
    @KCMulville

    Saint Augustine:Is Data self-conscious and rational? That is all that matters to his personhood.

    Again, this is why I reject the notion of personhood as a legal concept.

    As we have so often learned from the abortion debate, a fetus is clearly human and alive. But it displays no evidence of rationality nor self-consciousness; at best, it only displays the potential for reason and self-consciousness. The same applies for a recently-born infant: although born, it doesn’t display intelligence, and couldn’t pass a Turing test.

    But that’s irrelevant; clearly a newly born infant (and in turn, a fetus) is a living human being. It has human rights – including the right to life. Its rights are based on those facts, not on intelligence.

    Intelligence alone cannot be the basis for “human rights.”

    Naturally, you can always extend the concept of rights by stipulating something explicitly. Nothing says we can’t protect Data; at that point, he would have ostensive rights, but not natural “human” rights, because he’s not human.

    • #69
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad:

    Saint Augustine:

    [Since he is not a human, the important question is whether] Is Data [is] self-conscious and rational? That is all that matters to his personhood.

    Uh oh. I hope this doesn’t go here.

    Well done!  I’m not going there.  Please note my correction to the original comment.

    Self-consciousness and rationality are a sufficient condition for personhood.  Being a human being is also a sufficient condition.  Neither is a necessary condition.

    • #70
  11. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk:

    Jamie Lockett:One thing you left out of your story was that Data only refused the procedure when he learned that the chance of his personality being lost were extremely high. Facing the prospect of existential destruction Data chose to protect himself.

    Of Mr. Data, I can only say this: of all the souls I have encountered watching Star Trek, his was the most… human.

    How can we know that this wasn’t merely a programming feature which Dr. Soong entered as part of Data’s firmware? A self-preservation subroutine.

    A machine designed to fool humans into believing it was human would act that way.

    I tend to believe Data was a person, but Majestyk’s point here is quite valid.  A simulation of a thing is not the thing. We judge our fellow human beings to be sentient because we know that we are, and they appear to be the same as us.  Extending this assumption to a machine that is designed to appear as one of us is a mistake.

    • #71
  12. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Saint Augustine:Well, the judge in this case wasn’t reasoning very clearly. Maybe Picard wasn’t either; I don’t recall.

    But most or all of your evidence is irrelevant, isn’t it? So what if he’s not a human? That’s an accurate premise providing no support at all for the conclusion that he’s not a person.

    Consulting the dictionary, written by and for humans, we have 7 definitions of “person.” Definitions 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 do not apply to Data, Worf, Spock, Sarek, Garek, Nog, Troi, or Gowron because they aren’t human. So they are all non-persons by those definitions, and if those are the legally relevant ones then Vulcans and Betazoids shouldn’t have rights in the Federation either.

    Obviously they do have rights, and the relevant definition is number 5: “a self-conscious or rational being.” (Note: I think this is poorly phrased; it should have been “self-conscious and rational.”)

    Is Data self-conscious and rational? That is all that matters to his personhood.

    Fetuses aren’t really people then either – but I’ve made that argument before.

    It seems likely that the dictionary definition you’ve given here is too anthropocentric in a linguistic sense.  Our dictionaries don’t recognize the existence of Klingons and include them as persons – so I’m tossing that semantic objection out.

    It’s worth noting that the definition could be modified slightly to include those individuals and species you note without including Mr. Data on the obvious basis that he isn’t alive or a natural creature and that his “self-consciousness” is likely an artefact of his programming, only seeming to be such because of human understanding.

    • #72
  13. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    KC Mulville:

    Intelligence alone cannot be the basis for “human rights.”

    Indeed.  Those who are not pro-life, from conception, are either ignorant of some of the basic biology, or else have no regard for human rights as such.

    Given the reality of non-human persons such as (in fiction) Data or Spock or (in reality) angels, I do believe in the existence of the rights of persons as such–without regard to their species or to the nature or even existence of their bodies.

    • #73
  14. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:Fetuses aren’t really people then either. . . .

    That doesn’t follow.  Please see my clarifications above.

    We’re talking about sufficient conditions for personhood, not necessary ones.

    It’s worth noting that the definition could be modified slightly to include those individuals and species you note without including Mr. Data on the obvious basis that he isn’t alive or a natural creature . . . .

    Perhaps.  I don’t have time to think about that one today!

    . . . and that his “self-consciousness” is likely an artefact of his programming, only seeming to be such because of human understanding.

    Ah, you really think he’s not really conscious?

    • #74
  15. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Majestyk:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Of Mr. Data, I can only say this: of all the souls I have encountered watching Star Trek, his was the most… human.

    How can we know that this wasn’t merely a programming feature which Dr. Soong entered as part of Data’s firmware? A self-preservation subroutine.

    A machine designed to fool humans into believing it was human would act that way.

    And a human struggling to be human and trying to fool other humans into accepting his full humanity might act that way, too.

    The Great Ghost of Gödel works in AI. In another conversation with me, he once said,

    And unfortunately, the obvious answer—“you’re right; computers only do what we tell them to do, so we tell them to learn from experience”—doesn’t hold water with this style of critic, because their metaphysics is that there’s something non-computable about human learning, even [if] they know literally nothing about computability or any of the work that’s been done on whether human thought is, in fact, computable or not, let alone that that question is where all of the work on digital computing came from in the first place… The idea that there are systems that do learn; that do create by any definition you could apply to a human being; that do deal with unknown, unpredictable environments is just lost on them, and the reaction is always to try to define those terms in ways that preserve human uniqueness—or, far more often, not to define them at all.

    The thing that frustrates me is: I’m fine with saying “I believe, as a matter of faith, that there is a supernatural or otherwise metaphysical aspect to human intelligence, and that this aspect is not amenable to automation.” Like any supernatural or metaphysical claim, it’s not falsifiable, and is therefore unassailable by definition. Fair enough. The problem arises when such believers then say “computers will never…” or “you shouldn’t bother trying to…” as if they were making a statement of fact—as usual, especially with respect to things that have already been done.

    Now, G^3’s remarks mostly pertain to those whose metaphysics are already quite different from yours, Maj. So his objections to many of the typical arguments for human uniqueness don’t apply directly to your arguments here. Nonetheless…

    I suppose it’s only human to bristle at the idea that we’re all meat robots. We are more than meat, we believe, and more than robots. But the way I see it, being more than meat or robot doesn’t preclude a person from still being both meat and robot.

    • #75
  16. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    (Incidentally, G^3 and I are both Christian – and both raised at least partially Lutheran. Amy is a confessional Lutheran, too… am I sensing a pattern?…)

    • #76
  17. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Saint Augustine:

    Majestyk:Fetuses aren’t really people then either. . . .

    That doesn’t follow. Please see my clarifications above.

    We’re talking about sufficient conditions for personhood, not necessary ones.

    It’s worth noting that the definition could be modified slightly to include those individuals and species you note without including Mr. Data on the obvious basis that he isn’t alive or a natural creature . . . .

    Perhaps. I don’t have time to think about that one today!

    . . . and that his “self-consciousness” is likely an artefact of his programming, only seeming to be such because of human understanding.

    Ah, you really think he’s not really conscious?

    I think we have limited means of assessing whether or not he is genuinely conscious.

    There are some things that we can know about Data.

    1. He is a synthetic creation.
    2. He is a computer with an ambulatory physical presence.
    3. Dr. Soong was seeking to create an artificial thing which mimicked human life in both appearance and communication ability.
    4. Dr. Soong programmed Data in order to get humans to interact with him naturally – so he sought to write firmware for Data which would “learn” but also allow humans to comprehend the things that the computer which is Data was saying.

    It’s possible that this cleverly devised simulation of consciousness, including advanced machine learning has fooled many people into believing that Data has sentience – but machine learning is not sentience.  It is inherently limited by the nature of what the machine can modify in itself.  Machines are unlikely to begin writing their own Operating System code anytime soon.  It’s still just an automoton; a golem.

    To draw a different parallel, nobody believes that C-3PO is a person.  When Princess Leia shut him off in the asteroid field it was obvious to everybody that he wasn’t.  What makes Data different from C-3PO?  Appearances, mostly.

    If Data appeared as a completely synthetic or metallic-looking construct rather than a humanoid, nobody would be disagreeing.

    • #77
  18. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Majestyk:To draw a different parallel, nobody believes that C-3PO is a person. When Princess Leia shut him off in the asteroid field it was obvious to everybody that he wasn’t. What makes Data different from C-3PO? Appearances, mostly.

    If Data appeared as a completely synthetic or metallic-looking construct rather than a humanoid, nobody would be disagreeing.

    My 12 yo son and I were discussing this thread and he reminded me of the episode in which they get a virus that causes the crew to all act drunk, and Data is also infected. So more than appearances?

    • #78
  19. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad:

    Majestyk:To draw a different parallel, nobody believes that C-3PO is a person. When Princess Leia shut him off in the asteroid field it was obvious to everybody that he wasn’t. What makes Data different from C-3PO? Appearances, mostly.

    If Data appeared as a completely synthetic or metallic-looking construct rather than a humanoid, nobody would be disagreeing.

    My 12 yo son and I were discussing this thread and he reminded me of the episode in which they get a virus that causes the crew to all act drunk, and Data is also infected. So more than appearances?

    Yes.  Bad writing.

    • #79
  20. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    The reality of Data being conscious or not is a question that cannot be answered, just as it will not be answerable any time soon for advanced computer programs in the real world.

    I would like to point out though that most computer scientists (G3 is an exception) assume that if it acts like it’s conscious, we must conclude it’s conscious, which strikes me as profoundly silly.

    Ask a different question of Data:  Is he human?  Now, Data has dead give aways that he isn’t, but imagine he had perfectly human skin, and more natural head movements.

    If you were unable to examine his body in detail, and judged him solely on the facts that you are human, and he appears to be like you, the wrong conclusion would be drawn.

    • #80
  21. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad:

    Majestyk:To draw a different parallel, nobody believes that C-3PO is a person. When Princess Leia shut him off in the asteroid field it was obvious to everybody that he wasn’t. What makes Data different from C-3PO? Appearances, mostly.

    If Data appeared as a completely synthetic or metallic-looking construct rather than a humanoid, nobody would be disagreeing.

    My 12 yo son and I were discussing this thread and he reminded me of the episode in which they get a virus that causes the crew to all act drunk, and Data is also infected. So more than appearances?

    I’m flattered. :)

    • #81
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:

    Ah, you really think he’s not really conscious?

    I think we have limited means of assessing whether or not he is genuinely conscious. . . .

    Fair enough.  However, that doesn’t by itself make much of an argument that he’s not conscious.

    If you mean we are left with no good evidence for his consciousness, then, given Occam’s Razor, it makes a decent argument that he’s not conscious–and thus not a person.

    To draw a different parallel, nobody believes that C-3PO is a person.

    You mean within the story, right?  Outside the story, we have commentary such as http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2013/06/droids_in_star_wars_the_plight_of_the_robotic_underclass.html.  I think Goldberg picked up on it in his G-File.

    • #82
  23. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Majestyk:
    The closest analog might be hibernation – but even then, the cells of the hibernating animal still respirate. Certain animals are capable of hibernating in a state of suspended animation for years, but not indefinitely or even for very long periods of time, such as Data does in Time’s Arrow… while dismembered.

    Tardigrades “can go without food or water for more than 30 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce”. Now, tardigrades are microscopic, the kind of animal we barely think of as an animal – very different from large, bald, bipedal primates. Plant seeds surviving thousands of years or bacterial spores are even more different. Tardigrades, plants, and bacteria are just life in the biological sense – their lives are obviously quite different from human lives.

    • #83
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    anonymous:

    Larry3435: This also raises the question of whether a person’s soul (assuming there is such a thing) can be re-installed in the person during the process of reassembly after the person goes through the transporter. … Maybe John would care to opine on these issues.

    I’m an engineer. I’ll leave the magic smoke to the philosophers and theologians.

    I guess that means me.  But I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no magic smoke.

    Here’s the deal: Everything going through the transporter is a hylomorph.  The soul goes with the body through the transporter–although it would be more precise to say that the body goes with the soul.

    • #84
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Yay!  Star Trek is headed for the TOP of the Most Popular box!

    Good work, Majestyk!  Well done, everyone!  Raktajinos and Romulan ale all around!  May this thread live long and prosper!

    Qapla!

    • #85
  26. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    anonymous:

    Majestyk: If Data appeared as a completely synthetic or metallic-looking construct rather than a humanoid, nobody would be disagreeing.

    I would disagree. Have I no body, or am I Gnome Ann?

    Fair enough.  I suppose we can look forward to advocacy of sex-bot marriage in the future as well.

    All hail our robotic hooker overlords!

    If computing continues to progress at the rate of the last century, within the next century (and probably much sooner) it will be possible to emulate the human brain at the level of individual synapses. Such an emulation will behave precisely as the original brain does, and will possess the same consciousness and self awareness of the original meat brain, even if it is completely disembodied. Emulations may choose to operate bodies which may take various forms for different purposes, but that does not affect their sense of self or personhood, any more than a person who gets a knee replacement is less human for it.

    For an in-depth exploration of the moral, ethical, and economic consequences of the emergence of human brain emulations, see Robin Hanson’s The Age of Em.

    You clearly don’t believe that Watson is sentient.  Is there some barrier that we can define where a synthetic creature crosses a boundary of apparent sentience, or is it fundamentally unknowable, a la Schroedinger’s Cat?  In my estimation, the ability to shut such a simulation off and then resume it without harming the function of the simulation is a stark dividing line between real and synthetic which will always separate us from machines – and machines should have no rights whatsoever.

    • #86
  27. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Saint Augustine:

    anonymous:

    Larry3435: This also raises the question of whether a person’s soul (assuming there is such a thing) can be re-installed in the person during the process of reassembly after the person goes through the transporter. … Maybe John would care to opine on these issues.

    I’m an engineer. I’ll leave the magic smoke to the philosophers and theologians.

    I guess that means me. But I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no magic smoke.

    Here’s the deal: Everything going through the transporter is a hylomorph. The soul goes with the body through the transporter–although it would be more precise to say that the body goes with the soul.

    What about Thomas Riker?  Is he a soulless golem?

    • #87
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:

    anonymous:

    Larry3435: This also raises the question of whether a person’s soul (assuming there is such a thing) can be re-installed in the person during the process of reassembly after the person goes through the transporter. … Maybe John would care to opine on these issues.

    I’m an engineer. I’ll leave the magic smoke to the philosophers and theologians.

    I guess that means me. But I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no magic smoke.

    Here’s the deal: Everything going through the transporter is a hylomorph. The soul goes with the body through the transporter–although it would be more precise to say that the body goes with the soul.

    What about Thomas Riker? Is he a soulless golem?

    Yes, just like all the other scum who joined the Maqis!

    No, seriously, no, he’s not a soulless golem.

    On hylomorphism, the body goes with the soul.  If the body got copied, so did the soul.

    • #88
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    At its finest, Star Trek is much less space opera than it is high-concept science fiction which explores philosophical issues using the trappings of space travel as a backdrop.

    Indeed.

    Another excuse to post this:

    Philosopher Trek

    • #89
  30. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Saint Augustine:

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:

    anonymous:

    Larry3435: This also raises the question of whether a person’s soul (assuming there is such a thing) can be re-installed in the person during the process of reassembly after the person goes through the transporter. … Maybe John would care to opine on these issues.

    I’m an engineer. I’ll leave the magic smoke to the philosophers and theologians.

    I guess that means me. But I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no magic smoke.

    Here’s the deal: Everything going through the transporter is a hylomorph. The soul goes with the body through the transporter–although it would be more precise to say that the body goes with the soul.

    What about Thomas Riker? Is he a soulless golem?

    Yes, just like all the other scum who joined the Maqis!

    No, seriously, no, he’s not a soulless golem.

    On hylomorphism, the body goes with the soul. If the body got copied, so did the soul.

    Well, at least he isn’t a ginger.

    I assume that Mr. Scott also retained his soul despite being trapped in a transporter buffer for decades? :)

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