You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
No one won this debate. And I suppose you could interpret that as me saying that Rep. Paul Ryan lost. But you'd be wrong. I think Vice President Joe Biden lost by being horribly belligerent and unserious. Ryan lost by not aggressively responding to Biden. And Martha Raddatz lost by interrupting at inappropriate times.
But allow me to revisit something I said during the debate:
Tonight, Joe Biden is embodying everything that women hate about talking with men.
I generally don't get into "gender" discussions. They usually don't interest me. But at some point in the live chat, I just pulled gender rank and let the men know that Biden's demeanor was not going over well with the ladies.
The truth is that we've all been there -- and that goes for women and men -- where you're having a conversation with someone awful. Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's just a jerk or suffering from low self-esteem. But whatever the back story, the result is that he's condescending, thinks he knows far more than he does and interrupts you when you're making a point. It's not enjoyable.
I'm even willing to give this debate to Biden, in the very short term. But in the long term, I bet he lost it. Think about what will stay with people after the debate. They'll remember a rude, interrupting man.
I have no doubt that these things will fire up the Democratic base. They were looking to get fired up and Biden showed some passion.
But think about how it comes off to women. Heck, think about how it comes off to average Midwesterners. Does that persona age well?
The talk shows, I imagine, will have plenty to poke fun of Biden about. Or as someone on Twitter put it:
"Knock-knock"
"Who's th--"
"Joe Biden!"
You want to win the debate. Biden might have eked something out there. (I don't know. I'm the weird voter who wanted Paul Ryan to say that Americans shouldn't invade other countries for "humanitarian" reasons. ) But you need to win the post-debate, too.
While the media might enjoy the narrative shift for a few hours, I think it's going to be hard to overcome Biden's many misstatements, his blustering persona, and his shocking lack of seriousness about the office he holds and the problems we face.
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Comments:
Sep '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Joe Biden:
"The guy just so, so, so eager to protect your right that you're not sure that right is worth having."
Jun '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Ryan showed that he understands the role of Vice President. He had the proper perspective. His job was to support Mitt Romney's policies. I don't know what Biden thinks his job is. Freelance wise ass?
Sep '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Someone better go over all of Neil Kinnock's speeches with a fine tooth comb again.
Sep '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."
Jun '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.:
But allow me to revisit something I said during the debate:
This was exactly the conclusion in my small circle. Women don't like bullies. Biden likely drove off more than a few women voters. How many is anybody's guess.
Oct '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
I've been trying to sort this out and I like this assessment of Biden's performance: Short term gain; Long (three and a half weeks) term loss.
I think you pegged it.
Jan '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
The reason Ryan 'won' is because he got Biden to over-reach, and lie!
This provides Romney with very recent, quotable statements from Obama's Vice President, with which to challenge and question Obama at next week's debate.
Romney will run with this and quote Biden a lot next week...
May '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie, I wish Paul Ryan had just looked at Biden once or twice and said, "no Joe, you're the one lying here!" As for Martha, well Mitt Romney better take notes because her interjections and debating of Paul Ryan is what Mitt will get in spades from the next moderators he will see. They will be arguing by proxy for Mr. Obama so there needs to be a strategy to deal with that effectively.
I was stunned at Biden's constant smiling, head wagging, and flat out interruptions of Paul Ryan. Somewhere in there Ryan needed to be more forceful in simply telling Biden to shut up and wait his turn. Still Ryan did come off as being the calm and focused person in the room and hopefully the majority of people watching were as equally irritated by Biden's boorish behavior.
Aug '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
And to think that the Democrats believe someone like Biden will be a champion of women's reproductive rights... *Shudder*
May '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie, I agree completely.
Ryan could have been quicker and smarter in certain moments. Sometimes he seemed awkwardly canned. But that's all perfectly pardonable in a young VP candidate. Biden came off as a much more glib and convincing demagogue than Obama. He's better at sounding knowledgeable and authentic. But his rudeness was off-putting. And the substance of his claims won't wear well.
After the partisan giddiness subsides, the Dems will have to face the fact that they're left with Obama. And they won't be happy.
Edited on October 12, 2012 at 5:52amJul '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Clealry you never argued with my ex-wife Mollie. I was having PTSD listening to Joe speak so belligerent.
Jul '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
I agree, Mollie. You also need to remember the times that the "moderator" interrupted Ryan himself. It was incredible that Ryan was being interrupted by both. I feel Ryan should have asserted himself at least once. More effective if he told Radattz that he needed to finish his answer. I also believe that Ryan probably does not really have the Growth Message down as the answer to how does one "pay" for tax cuts. He would need to say that and then launch into the imagination as to how it fits with the American Dream and key value. Ryan has probably been on the campaign stage too long. I was hoping for more from Ryan; Biden was execrable.
Jun '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
My wife is reliably Republican, but isn't interested in details. Her reaction matched Mollie's down the line: Biden is a loudmouth with adequacy issues. The mugging and interrupting bothered her greatly.
She also thought that Ryan showed remarkable restraint.
Biden's lies about Libya will help Romney down the road.
Aug '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Mollie, I think Ryan at least once should have asked Biden if he thought a regime dedicated to the eradication of Israel and denying the Holocaust getting a nuclear weapon was something to laugh about. I think Peter Robinson is essentially right: Biden was a jerk, but because he pushed Ryan around (with the help of the moderator) he wins.
Apr '11
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
I think Mollie is on to something, but not in the way she thinks.
The Dark Triad traits actually boost short-term mating strategies for men.
It's all conjecture, but Mollie may be right that Biden is a short-termer, but she may be off mark about whether it's a gain or loss with women.
I suspect he substantially bolstered Obama's short-term chances with liberal women.
I think Biden won. FWIW.
May '10
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Totally agree Molly.
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Jeff: I think Mollie is on to something, but not in the way she thinks.
The Dark Triad traits actually boost short-term mating strategies for men.
It's all conjecture, but Mollie may be right that Biden is a short-termer, but she may be off mark about whether it's a gain or loss with women.
I suspect he substantially bolstered Obama's short-term chances with liberal women.
I think Biden won. FWIW. ยท 3 minutes ago
I think I might have been wrong about the short-term actually. I think he may not have even won that:
Aug '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Jen Rubin had a great take on the debate over at Right Turn. I tend to agree with her that Biden's condescension was apparent. Bossiness tends to make those who already agree with a candidate feel superior but to those people who haven't made up their minds, it is a major turn off. That is why Romney played so well last week across the board, respectfully disagreeing with the president. It certainly helped that Obama was sheepish the whole time. Biden was all over the map on his responses, but on his tone for the first 2/3rds of the debate suggested that his only goal was to get the liberal base excited again, undecided voters be damned. I am glad that Ryan displayed to a national audience that he has a steady hand and that the Republican ticket is a plausible alternative, even if Biden tried to tie him to the GOP of old.
Apr '12
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
Biden clearly won with Rabbitses help. Ryan had a reasonably good finish but lost most all early rounds.
While it may be true that women don't like bullies in general, they do tend to be fond of them when they feel they're protecting their interests.
Yet this is good because it gives Obama very little for his next meet with Romney in a few days.
Re: You Want To Win The Debate, But You Also Want To Win The Post-Debate
My friend Meghan once wrote an essay about a horrible experience she had on the subway once. Basically a crazy person picked a fight with her and this fight lasted through a few stops. At some point she realized that the people around her thought they both were crazy.
You can't fight with a crazy person without looking like you're crazy. It just can't be done. It only makes you look crazy.