France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
On the Wall Street Journal at this hour:
Role for U.S. Forces Unclear
French combat aircraft Saturday fired the first shots of a United Nations-mandated military action against Libyan strongman Col. Moammar Gadhafi, destroying at least one military vehicle, according to French officials.
Broadly speaking, I think it fair to say, conservatives find this development unsettling. The United States, most argue, should be leading the world in Libya, not tagging along behind France.
I'm not certain about that. I'm not certain at all.
During the wars in the Balkans, didn't we conservatives revile the Europeans for their inaction? For their complete dependence on us? As a matter of principle, don't we want individuals to stand on their own two feet--and shouldn't we wish the same of democratic nations?
I hold no brief for the supineness and passivity of Barack Obama in this matter. At best, he has presided over weeks of mere drift. And the involvement of the UN makes me wary. The United States must reserve the right to act on its own, without prior UN approval, and I would have thought the Europeans would wish to reserve the same right for themselves.
But for the first time in decades, European democracies--France appears to be working particularly closely with the United Kingdom and Italy--have taken responsibility for a grave problem, engaging in a justified and judicious use of force.
Why should conservatives gainsay that?
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Sep '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
What if the French plains fly to Malta and surrender? just kidding.
I would be happy to leave it all to the French, British, and Italians. However, I can already hear the mission creep. This was pitched to the international community as a "No Fly Zone"...sounds defined enough. We will keep Libyan aircraft from strafing rebels from above. Who could be against that? How did we get to attacking tanks and armored vehicles? Were they flying in the No Fly Zone?
Now to go out on a limb...How does one differentiate this sort of action from the actions taken by the US and its allies in Iraq? What if Col Q. crushes the rebels anyway? What is the exit strategy other than an enforced, imposed solution from above.
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
I'm ambivalent on this whole thing. Gadhafi has had a date with United States military force for some time now if for no other reason than the Lockerbie Pan Am 103 massacre that he was behind. I'm agree with Peter that it's a positive sign to see continental Europe become more serious about confronting at least some of the throughly evil non-consensual governments in the region.
Reasonable people can and do disagree with our involvement in this action. My primary complaint is that we've just committed an act of war without any sort of congressional approval. Even if we had congressional approval, I'm unclear on what the end game is here. If it's to remove Gadhafi, then that needs to be made very clear. If it's just to balance out a civil war without providing decisive assistance to the rebellion, then that does not strike me as a compelling argument for war.
May '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Surely, the U.S. military is not so advanced that an alliance of European and Arab powers cannot face Qaddafi without us.
Regardless, the deal is done. What troubles me is the silence of the GOP on how we entered this engagement.
Edited on Mar 19, 2011 at 1:52pmDec '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Reports say the US Navy has launched missile strikes to take out Libyan air defenses.
Feb '11
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Mission creep is already ongoing. The US fleet is attacking Libya to take out air defense assets.
We should have stayed out of this mess.
Not sure the 2010 election did any good at the federal level.
Aug '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Good for the French! I am a conservative and I applaud this move.
Sure, I would like to see the US lead, but since Pres O has abdicated (in all major respects, except the one I would really approve of) it is good to see our European allies take action.
They now have the opportunity to see how their choices in defense forces (quantity and quality) are really going to perform. For example, French fighters have pretty short loiter times and definitely don't like to stray far from their tankers- now they get to see how this will play out.
Additionally, it will be good to see what ROE these guys adopt and how it will play in the press.
Heh, just thinking of how the frankophile NYT will reconcile their love of all things French with their innate hatred of Western Civilization fills my tiny soul with pure schadenfreude.
Jun '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
I agree Peter, it's heartening to see that old Europe still has some fight left in it. Maybe this will remind them that some problems can't be solved by one more round of negotiations, and that a credible threat of force is an essential element of diplomacy. Perhaps they'll even consider picking up a greater share of the tab for their own defense... or is that too much to hope for?
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
The Europeans have some pretty sophisticated weapon systems to throw at a problem like this, but no one has the capabilities that the United States does. If I were Europe, I'd want the United States military involved because I'd want access to, for example, its electronic warfare capabilities and its stealth weapons such as the the F-117. Not sure what time of day it is over in Libya right now, but if I were running a Libya air defense installation, I'd be making myself pretty scarce right now before the stealth aircraft took to the skies to kill me.
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Results are what we want. Let's see what we have to cheer about when the dust settles.
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
I've no idea who we are protecting in eastern Libya. How do the other Libyans perceive our support for the Senussi in eastern Libya? Islamists are not an improvement over Al Qathafi.
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
RUMOR RUMOR RUMOR - The 5th Fleet has has pulled out of Bahrain, heading for the Gulf of Oman. RUMOR RUMOR RUMOR
Jun '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Ross Conatser:
I would be happy to leave it all to the French, British, and Italians. However, I can already hear the mission creep. This was pitched to the international community as a "No Fly Zone"...sounds defined enough. We will keep Libyan aircraft from strafing rebels from above. Who could be against that? How did we get to attacking tanks and armored vehicles? Were they flying in the No Fly Zone?
The U.N. resolution went beyond a "No Fly Zone" and approved "all necessary measures" to protect Libyan civilians. That would seem to make the tanks fair game. The same resolution also prohibits any foreign military occupation of Libya, isn't that a fairly bright line to prevent undue mission creep?
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
I'm prone to be excited that we are doing something but the result will be the same. If we show leadership, we will be vilified by the Islamists for being the Great Satan. If we sit it out, or do the 1/2 ass technique like we are apparently doing now, we will be vilified for siding with the dictator. That tempers my excitement. You know what else tempers it? High gas prices from the instability.
Dec '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
France only reluctantly got involved in the first Iraq War in 1991 at almost the last minute, worked to actively oppose and undermine us in the second Iraq War in 2003 and has done little to help us in Afghanistan. Yet they are fully involved here.
Something unusual is happening and I have a suspicion there is something important I don't know
Also, FWIW, we're pretty sure Gaddafi ordered the Lockerbie terrorist attack that killed many Americans. That puts him in company with Bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, al-Zarqawi, and al-Awlaki.
My preference would have been to let the Europeans do the shooting and killing in this one, with the US providing logistical and political support. However, since we're now involved in the shooting, and we've got France and Britain with us, my preference is to do what is needed to get it over with quickly, using no US ground forces.
The Libyan conflict could be a short one if done right. Other than the flat coastal region it is almost uninhabitable desert. This is the area Rommel's Afrika Corp and the British 8th army fought back and forth over in 1941-42.
Edited on Mar 19, 2011 at 3:30pmDec '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Ross Conatser:
Now to go out on a limb...How does one differentiate this sort of action from the actions taken by the US and its allies in Iraq? What if Col Q. crushes the rebels anyway? What is the exit strategy other than an enforced, imposed solution from above. · Mar 19 at 1:42pm
Implicit in your statement is that what was done in Iraq was wrong. I disagree. Libya gave up its WMD program in 2005. Do you think he did this to be a nice guy or because he saw another brutal dictator bite the dust over WMD?
If he had not given up his WMD program, do you think he might have nuclear arms by now? I doubt it. But he might have chemical and/or biological weapons. Weapons that he could use against rebels or UN forces if it ever came to it.
Dec '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
"The United States, most argue, should be leading the world in Libya, not tagging along behind France.
I'm not certain about that. I'm not certain at all."
I agree with you Peter. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, he had the fourth largest army in the world. The US needed to lead. What did Milosevic have that required us? Let France lead.
Oct '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
France and Italy are acting in their own direct self-interest: it is their Mediterranean coasts upon which a flood of refugees from the Maghreb will arrive if the situation spirals out of control. I'm sure there are many people in France looking at this like a potential Le Camp des Saints scenario. Further, the destination for Libya's oil exports is overwhelmingly European countries: Italy 37.7%, Germany 10.1%, France 8.4% (CIA World Factbook, 2009 data).
It is less clear what Britain's interest in this might be, and even harder to discern how intervention is the interest of the United States.
Edited on Mar 19, 2011 at 3:52pmNov '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
We don't know who the good guys are in Libya. When I heard that Al Qaeda was backing the rebels it made me nervous.
Jul '10
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
Libya is Europe's problem; that's where its oil and its refugees go.
As conservatives, we often complain that European countries are getting a free ride on the back of our military spending. We should have let them pay their own way this time.
Jan '11
Re: France Acts in Libya. Conservatives Hiss When They Should Cheer?
My libertarian side really starts to show during situations like this. So, the justification is that the Colonel is a dictator killing his own citizens. Who's next, Yemen, Bahrain? This is not our problem, maybe we're paying England back for their support in Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't know. I don't believe in isolationism but (here it comes) I think that this whole area of the globe could do with dose of chaos.