Men Have Quit
Since the 1960s, women have done very well for themselves. If anything, equality has meant that women are much higher achievers than are men; women represent the solid majority of students in universities, and they are dynamic and successful in the workplace. All of this is good.
The problem is with men. Several years ago the Washington Post reported that 1/3rd of all men between the ages of 25 and 40 live at home, with their mothers. Somehow I doubt the situation has improved. Men are dropping out. They do this for many reasons.
One reason is that women have become so impressive. When faced with competition from a woman, a real man has two choices. He can stay and fight, or he can walk away. If he stays and fights, he either wins, or he loses. What kind of a man respects himself for beating a woman? It goes against every chivalrous grain in our bodies. And if he loses, then he has truly lost. A man who cannot best a woman is not a gracious loser. He is, simply, castrated. So what does a red blooded American man do when faced with female competition? He refuses to play. He drops out, and lives at home with his mom. He can always win at Nintendo. And in the fantasy world, he can compete to his heart's content, secure in the knowledge that he is battling other men. Red-blooded males who do get jobs are most comfortable choosing professions where women, by and large, are not. These jobs tend to be blue collar, and so they don't, as a rule, pay very well. And that ends up reinforcing the problem.
This phenomenon is being repeated everywhere women have been liberated. The same proportion of men are dropping out in Western Europe and Japan, for example. Over a million young men are Hikkimori -- they don't leave their rooms. They have no jobs. They have no life. And nobody can deal with it.
But at the same time, some 90% of young Japanese women in their 20s and 30s "refuse" to get married and settle down. Is it any wonder that the average Japanese woman is now at the end of her childbearing years?
What does this mean for women? It means that the pool of "qualified" men has fallen dramatically in recent years, and most women are going to inevitably end up with men who are less impressive than they are. After all, more women are college graduates than men. Women get better grades and test scores than men. And this situation means that men, who are instinctively less comfortable with a more successful wife, are increasingly tempted to drop out of relationships as well.
I know many, many young men who have more or less dropped out. Yet they are being pursued by attractive, dynamic, successful women who understand something very basic: Either they settle for any guy with a pulse, or they stand an excellent chance of being loveless and childless.
Women instinctively understand this. I think that there is a reason why women have always pretended to be stupider than they are. They instinctively know that men feel better (and thus more attracted) around such a woman. We can blame men for being retards, but I am not sure it helps. Even when men were men and women were women, women played dumb. Most men prefer a woman who does not intimidate him.
The relationship imbalances that I see around me are truly ominous. Women are settling for very poor relationships with men who have some pretty serious passive aggression problems. But can we condemn them? Women who demand "quality" men, often won't be getting any man at all. I don't think we can condemn women for choosing a poor relationship over the life of a spinster.
I don't have the answer. I think the desire for men to be the more assertive of the sexes is hard-wired, and few men have the self esteem to be married to a smarter/better woman. Those few men, at least those who are not busy sampling the wares, get snapped up quickly. That leaves other women trying desperately make things work, somehow.
So there is an ongoing tragedy on both the personal and the societal levels.
I wish it were not an either/or situation. Can anyone suggest a counterexample: a society in which women have full equality, and men don't drop out?
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Comments :
Aug '10
Re: Men Have Quit
Even if he wins, he loses, since he clearly took advantage of his position in the hated patriarchy to win.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Misthiocracy
Even if he wins, he loses, since he clearly took advantage of his position in the hated patriarchy to win. · Sep 19 at 8:30am
Good point - I hadn't thought of that.
Feb '11
Re: Men Have Quit
I have seen numerous corporate environments in which many women are doing very well and men do not seem to have given up and dropped out.
If there are 5 regional sales managers and 2 of them are women--and all of them are in competition to be named the next national sales manager--does it really seem likely that the 3 guys will become less success-oriented just because a couple of their competitors are women?
Maybe that's the nature of people in some fields, but I don't think it's generally the nature of businesspeople.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
david foster: I have seen numerous corporate environments in which many women are doing very well and men do not seem to have given up and dropped out.
If there are 5 regional sales managers and 2 of them are women--and all of them are in competition to be named the next national sales manager--does it really seem likely that the 3 guys will become less success-oriented just because a couple of their competitors are women?
Maybe that's the nature of people in some fields, but I don't think it's generally the nature of businesspeople. · Sep 19 at 9:13am
Striving to become successful in a corporate environment is giving up.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Good example here: Apparently someone I never heard of was married to someone else I never heard of whose star was rising and her success put a strain on their young marriage.
A shame really.
Oct '10
Re: Men Have Quit
It's been about 100 years or so since women have gained the right to vote. We are seeing the result of that change in human activity. Before then, women exercised considerable power, and in some cases more power, by their strong influence over their men. Presidents and prime ministers made many of their decisions at the behest of a strong wife. Now the difference between the sexes is on a level playing field just as the West has moved from a masculine physical workplace to a feminine intellectual workplace. Adjusting to the new balance of power will be extremely difficult.
What could spell the end of Western Judeo-Christian civilization is that these changes have not taken place in Islam or most "third-world" cultures. There, what influence women have is still filtered by the aggressive masculine world to an even greater extent than it ever was in the West.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
david foster: I have seen numerous corporate environments in which many women are doing very well and men do not seem to have given up and dropped out.
Maybe that's the nature of people in some fields, but I don't think it's generally the nature of businesspeople. · Sep 19 at 9:13am
My argument is NOT that all men behave in this manner, and you are correct that there are men in business who compete with women. But there are plenty whom you don't see - because, either professionally or at a previous life stage, they walked away from the table.
Speaking personally, I can say that when I was once put in a position where I was to compete with a woman, I walked away, and left the field to her.
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 10:32amDec '10
Re: Men Have Quit
I completely disagree that women becoming impressive is a major factor in the "dropping out" of men. Men "drop out" because A) being raised without a man in their household they have no clue how to be men and B) because in an effort to address the inequalities of female presence in the workforce, in higher education, and in church we have changed the way those institutions function in ways that are helpful to woman but useless or harmful to men.
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 10:58amIs there any evidence that men are "dropping out because they don't want to compete with women? Google "education failing boys" or "why men don't go to church" and you will get tons of articles and books suggesting that the shift in institutional culture to cater to woman is the main driving cause in men "dropping out". Not fear of castration.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Nyadnar17
I completely disagree that women becoming impressive is a major factor in the "dropping out" of men.
Is there any evidence that men are "dropping out because they don't want to compete with women? Sep 19 at 10:58am
Edited on Sep 19 at 10:58 am
My evidence is actually on the religious side.
I am an orthodox Jew. In our synagogues, men and women are separated, and only men can receive various honors or privileges. Men and women are equally represented in number.
In Conservative Jewish circles, where women are much more on par with men, and competing for the same honors, there is a ratio of 5:1 or worse now.
And in "enlightened" Reconstructionist and Reform circles, men have almost entirely quit. Ratios of 9:1 or worse are dominant.
Where men compete with women, men are much more likely to walk.
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 11:25amMar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Nyadnar17
Is there any evidence that men are "dropping out because they don't want to compete with women? Google "education failing boys" or "why men don't go to church" and you will get tons of articles and books suggesting that the shift in institutional culture to cater to woman is the main driving cause in men "dropping out". Not fear of castration. · Sep 19 at 10:58am
Edited on Sep 19 at 10:58 am
Isn't this just a candy-coated way to suggest the same thing? One of the ways in which we cater to men is to make a male-friendly (read: "single sex") environment. Men do fine as firefighters and oil rig workers and mechanics.
Red-blooded men, in their core, are not comfortable competing with women. Competing is profoundly unchivalrous, and when men do it, there is a price to be paid in self-respect.
Edited on Sep 19, 2011 at 11:31amDec '10
Re: Men Have Quit
iWc
Isn't this just a candy-coated way to suggest the same thing?
No it isn't.
Generally speaking:
1) If you change the structure of an organization from a competitive one to a cooperative one you are going to(generally speaking) attract woman and discourage men.
2) If you change you focus from facts and objective learning, to discussions of emotion, relationships, and self discovery you are going to attract woman and discourage men.
3)If you change your focus to more lecture and less active learning you are going to harm male achievement more than female achievement.
Richard Whitmare : Talking about how something as simple as schools teaching verbal skills two grades earlier than they used to has had a dramatic impart on men in education. All over the country we are making changes to help raise women up without considering how those same changes which help woman might negatively impact men.
Men compete just fine against woman in poker, video games, mixed doubles tennis, game shows, military, etc. Competition isn't the problem. The structural changes that traditionally male dominated institutions have made to attract and encourage woman are to blame. Not competition.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Nyadnar17
Men compete just fine against woman in poker, video games, mixed doubles tennis, game shows, military, etc. · Sep 19 at 1:11pm
Actually, I don't think so. Men prefer competing against other men in all of these spheres - when they have a choice.
The men I know who are trained killers would never be able to hit a woman as they would hit a man. They cannot do it in training, and they cannot do it in combat.
And let me ask it backward: would you rather be a man who was capable of punching a woman in the head during a boxing match - or the man who, faced with that choice, walked away?
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Nyadnar17
No it isn't.
Generally speaking:
1) If you change the structure of an organization from a competitive one to a cooperative one you are going to(generally speaking) attract woman and discourage men. Sep 19 at 1:11pm
I have always had questions about this kind of thing. High Schools and Colleges can pretend to be cooperative, but if they have any culture of excellence then they remain highly competitive - they just fake it better.
But I take your point - in a way. In an environment which strives for mediocrity (which may describe many so-called educational institutions), men may well drop out. You might say it is because men do not prefer cooperative environments. I would say that this is further evidence that men desire good old fashioned (mano-a-mano) competition.
Re: Men Have Quit
I find it interesting that no women have commented on this interesting discussion yet. Let me remedy that.
A few thoughts:
1a. Men have not quit in the political sphere, which is still overwhelmingly dominated by men. In the House, there are only 72 female Reps. And in the Senate only 17. Does that say more about the caliber of men in politics, or about politics as a career field, or about women in politics? I'm not sure.
1b. Along those same lines, I was commenting to my fiance this weekend, that it's interesting that blacks had the right to vote 50 years before women did. And that the U.S. elected a black president before it elected a female president. No further comment, aside from that it's interesting.
2. How do fathers play into the equation? Maybe the blame for the trend of men quitting should be placed more on fathers and grandfathers than on women (as tempting as it is to blame everything on Eve).
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
1a. Men have not quit in the political sphere, which is still overwhelmingly dominated by men. In the House, there are only 72 female Reps. And in the Senate only 17. Does that say more about the caliber of men in politics, or about politics as a career field, or about women in politics? I'm not sure.
I think that politics, like a few other fields, is more likely to self-select men. Men are often willing to sacrifice their families and "other" life in pursuit of their careers, while women typically are not. I recall a number of studies of the proverbial glass ceiling, in which women who were near the CEO level explicitly declaimed interest in the top job, because of the unacceptable consequences. I have seen echoes of that in specific surgical specialties, to bring one other example.
Of course, I don't like to suggest that a surgeon and a member of Congress have much in common...
Sep '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Competing with women: In two Olympic sports (sailing and equestrian) men and women compete as equals.
In theory.
In practice, there's a sharp imbalance: men are dramatically over-representeded at the top of the heap. Across all of the the three-day eventing equestrian discipline, women account for 91% of members in the U.S. Eventing Association. But the top rider list, and the short list for the Olympic team, is dominated by men.
There are a lot of reasons why--not the least of which is that the top pros are at the peak of their game in their thirties--putting women in the hard position of competing or having children.
I don't know if a similar situation prevails in sailing.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
1b. Along those same lines, I was commenting to my fiance this weekend, that it's interesting that blacks had the right to vote 50 years before women did. And that the U.S. elected a black president before it elected a female president. No further comment, aside from that it's interesting.· Sep 19 at 2:00pm
This country will elect the first decently qualified female candidate who comes along. It is just that we have not really had any good ones yet. As you point out, the pool of potential candidates (among governors - 44 men, 6 women) is certainly smaller, which does not help.
Sep '11
Re: Men Have Quit
I think you're also over-dramatizing this: yes--there are men who are living at home with Mom. There are also women--Daughter[1] lived with us while Daughter[1].Husband enjoyed his fourth all-expenses-paid junket to an exclusive Central Asian resort community; Daughter[2] has lived with us while she and Daughter[2].Husband sorted out their move from Hartford to New York City. (Still in process, still in limbo, I may soon be in a position to speak empirically about son-in-law-icide...[mutter, mutter]).
The men I know of who lived with their parents as adults generally were tagged (and frequently medicated) as learning-disabled, ADHD, or some other excuse to foster Ritalin dependency in school.
I also think there has been a feminizing of the schools--we don't say "boys will be boys..." these days; we regard them as dangerous and medicate them. Boys learn pretty quickly that you do not want to be the nail sticking up in a school system devoted to enforcing conformity.
Mar '11
Re: Men Have Quit
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
2. How do fathers play into the equation? Maybe the blame for the trend of men quitting should be placed more on fathers and grandfathers than on women (as tempting as it is to blame everything on Eve). · Sep 19 at 2:00pm
I am not blaming everything on Eve. It is hardly womens' faults that men won't play the game. But women are definitely paying a price nonetheless - I know so many excellent women who settle for losers just so they won't be alone.
The millions of men who have dropped out in Japanese society have traditional families and traditional fathers. The drop-outs are making their own decisions here.
Apr '11
Re: Men Have Quit
This reminds me of an interesting tidbit from Claire's book on Thatcher. When Claire interviewed the opponents of Margaret Thatcher, the same point came up regarding how difficult it was for them, as men, to compete with her. The reason that they gave, or excuse, was that it felt dishonorable to verbally debate her in the same way that they would debate another man. They pulled their "punches" out of a cultural deference to her being a woman. These men claimed that to "win" would have been to lose honor and the respect of their peers.
I'm sure that this happens, but to say that men are losing because women are winning is repulsive. Maybe our transition to a service-based economy naturally favors the fairer sex? I'm sure there are many factors. My industry is still dominated by men, but the women who can tolerate software engineering do very well. They also typically don't have any trouble landing a date with a smart guy, but that's a numbers game around here.