Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
We all know the tropes about stoners - but now there's evidence that smoking weed actually does permanent damage to your brain. Indeed, it has now been officially noted that getting loaded on the Acapulco Gold causes this: “Persistent users” who started as teenagers suffered a drop of eight IQ points at the age of 38, compared to when they were 13."
While that might not seem like much, for most people this represents the difference between being average and being subnormal. So, if you grew up around spleef-jockies and got the strange impression that they were off by just a notch... you may have been right!
Having never touched a leaf of the bud in my life -- and being mocked by friends and associates as a "square," a "rube," or a "narc" -- I feel justified in my long-held position that I couldn't afford to give up any of the few brain cells that I had to rub together for the sake of Mary Jane.
If you're libertarian about this sort of thing on the premise that "it's no worse than booze," does your position change even slightly given the evidence that pot actually does permanent damage to your brain, especially if you use it when you're young?
Editor's Note: Image of marijuana courtesy of Shutterstock
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Dec '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Majestyk
One of the things about liberty is that it requires a sober and judicious electorate. If you think overtly allowing this nation to become a society full of stoners is going to lead us to continue to be the leading nation of the world I rather doubt it. · 1 hour ago
I call shenanigans on this line of argument. The entire British Navy was half in the bag while they ruled the waves.
And the notion that chronically smoking chronic is even remotely as bad for you as being a chronic alcoholic is preposterous. I could marshal peer-reviewed papers to that effect. But even better, for me, is the anecdotal evidence. I've been both, and am now a teetotaler. Being a drunk is physical torture. Being a pothead is rather relaxing, and just a really bad idea if you aspire to much.
And people who suggest that pot-smoking can't be regulated either 1) Don't know anything about pot, or 2) Are forgetting that there's perfectly good low-THC ditch weed out there for this very purpose.
P.S. I would say the Netherlands stack up a-ok on a per capital GDP basis.
Sep '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
I grew up with stoners and lots of Jeff Spicoli's and knew even then that the long haired doofus who couldn't remember the periodic table in chemistry class was unlikely to be a winning horse in the race to the truth with a biochemist assuring me that the active substance in marijuana was not harmless.
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Let's compare these two statements:
"Honey, let's go out for a nice dinner at Ruth's Chris... we'll have a nice garden salad with house vinaigrette, garlic mashed and an inch-thick porterhouse with a nice glass of red..."
Vs.
"Hey Honey, let's toke up and get a nice bag of cheetos afterwards..."
One is the prelude to a nice evening and the other is a prelude to the trailer-park olympics.
Edited on August 28, 2012 at 9:25pmDec '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Majestyk:
One is the prelude to a nice evening and the other is a prelude to the trailer-park olympics. · 2 minutes ago
Edited 0 minutes ago
I am pretty sure you haven't been around as many responsible stoners as drunks. And there are more of the former than you know. You're probably friends with some right now. You just don't know because it is illegal. Believe me, there are lots of different ways to 'use' marijuana, just as there are lots of different ways to 'use' booze.
Besides, I'll wager if you asked "What drug are the competitors in the trailer park Olympics using," weed would come third in the Family Feud style rankings after cheap beer and meth.
But back to the point, Majestyk: If forced to choose between being a chronic user of booze or weed from a health and fulfillment perspective I would choose weed every time. I know. I've done the field research.
[Keeping in mind that I also already know the best answer for me is 'neither'.]
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
KarlUB
Besides, I'll wager if you asked "What drug are the competitors in the trailer park Olympics using," weed would come third in the Family Feud style rankings after cheap beer and meth.
But back to the point, Majestyk: If forced to choose between being a chronic user of booze or weed from ahealth and fulfillmentperspective I would choose weed every time. I know. I've done the field research.
[Keeping in mind that I also already know the best answer for meis 'neither'.] · 1 minute ago
I'm pretty sure "responsible stoner" is an oxymoron.
So you're a teetotaler now, I get it. And if by "use" marijuana you mean "ingest" as opposed to huffing it through a bong sitting on a stop-sign-propped-up-on-cinder-blocks, I also get that. I suppose you could get a nice cannabis enema as well, but that's probably way too libertarian.
Yes, cheap beer has fuelled many gold medalists in the tin teepee triathlon (Drink, Fight, Puke) but the legalization of pot isn't going to make that go away - instead we'll be dealing with drunk AND stoned competitors.
Jul '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
KarlUB
Majestyk
O
I call shenanigans on this line of argument. The entire British Navy was half in the bag while they ruled the waves.
And the notion that chronically smoking chronic is even remotely as bad for you as being a chronic alcoholic is preposterous. I could marshal peer-reviewed papers to that effect. But even better, for me, is the anecdotal evidence. I've been both, and am now a teetotaler. Being a drunk is physical torture. Being a pothead is rather relaxing, and just a really bad idea if you aspire to much.
And people who suggest that pot-smoking can't be regulated either 1) Don't know anything about pot, or 2) Are forgetting that there's perfectly good low-THC ditch weed out there for this very purpose.
P.S. I would say the Netherlands stack up a-ok on a per capital GDP basis. · 3 hours ago
I'm with KarlUB here on damage issues and legalization.
I've followed thousands of people for two decades, many with these habits. I know what dope does to people. The question I have always had is whether legal pot would be a gateway drug still?
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Thanks to Diane Ellis (I'm assuming) for the thread-bump!
As to the topic of the article and the thread, I would note that the drop of IQ in the study participants is a real, statistically significant phenomenon. It is irrelevant, by-and-large whether or not the weed itself actually rewired or damaged the smokers' brains or if perhaps environmental factors surrounding the culture of cannibus consumption dumbed these people down; either way they became less intelligent.
I know that correlation is not causation, but this is pretty convincing.
Mar '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Majestyk“Persistent users” who started as teenagers suffered a drop of eight IQ points at the age of 38, compared to when they were 13."
If you're libertarian about this sort of thing on the premise that "it's no worse than booze," does your position change even slightly given the evidence that pot actually does permanent damage to your brain, especially if you use it when you're young?
If the criteria for whether or not to ban alcohol was based on studies of the long-term effects of getting drunk 4 nights a week starting as a teenager throughout adult life, alcohol would be as illegal as heroin.
Seriously, do you think that drinking heavily from age 15 on doesn't lead to any permanent changes in the brain? Let's compare apples with apples, instead of the usual major stoner vs. social drinker comparisons.
Apr '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Not to be square or anything, but wasn't the point of the original article that smoking weed during one's teenage years was likely to do damage? The developing brain is a very delicate thing and it is not surprising that habitual marijuana use would be harmful. But most advocates of decriminalization that I know (and I count myself one of them) do NOT take the posture that minors should be allowed access to pot. We restrict sales of alcohol to minors, and this seems most sensible. The argument in favor of decriminalization or legalization (for me at least) centers on the idea that the rule of law is undermined by the prohibition of a widely used substance.
Mar '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Majestyk:
As to the topic of the article and the thread, I would note that the drop of IQ in the study participants is a real, statistically significant phenomenon.
I don't doubt for a second that chronic pot smoking from an early age can lead to permanent (but slight) cognitive impairment.
But please show me the "real, statistically significant" evidence that chronic drinking from an early age is not even worse on the brain than pot.
Edited on August 29, 2012 at 12:44amOct '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
If Mary Jane use shaves a few points off the I.Q, promotes lethargy and
leads to poor decision making. Just why not make it legal ?
Politicians demonstate the same behaviours and the need for munchies.
And if the "War on Drugs" were to end, what to do with the funding that runs in the billions ?
Edited on August 29, 2012 at 1:11amNov '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Time for another pot legalization debate already? That six hours really flies by!
Everytime I see one of these arguments they always start the same way, someone posting something that boils down to "A-ha! I was right all along!".
Then the comments start that boil down to do "You can't tell me what I can do with my life!" vs. "Shut up you degenerate lowlife!"
Pot legalization won't destroy the fabric of society, pot being illegal is not an infringement on your essential liberty.
The fact is that if this is even in the top five of your key political issues you probably don't need to be voting - on either side of the debate.
Things that escape both sides of the debate too often 1)occassional marijuana consumption isn't that debilitating to your mental faculties, but we don't have a way to measure a legal intoxication without a blood test so legalizing marijuana is impractical; 2)nobody says "By Jove, this prohibition on cannabis is unprincpled! To Mexico to furnish the masses with their rightful intoxicants posthaste!" Criminals are criminals because they're lazy, stupid and/or greedy, not because they're freedom fighters.
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
DocJay
I'm with KarlUB here on damage issues and legalization.
I've followed thousands of people for two decades, many with these habits. I know what dope does to people. The question I have always had is whether legal pot would be a gateway drug still? · 1 minute ago
And that's the problem I have - of all the potheads that I've known, they're either long-haired stoners who've functionally checked out of society, or they use pot as the warm-up act for more sinister intoxicants.
Of the recreational marijuana users, I understand that they just want to be left alone, but the problem is that THC is a hallucinogen, and if made legal, keeping it out of the hands of the people who shouldn't have it (kids, mostly) is going to end up with the same relative success that we've had in keeping tobacco out of their hands.
Chemical dependance is a problem, and simply throwing our hands up in frustration is not good enough.
How about this: You can smoke, ingest, pound, cram, mash or bake whatever you can grow with no chemical modifications, but you can't sell it.
Nov '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Now, now. C'mon. The prohibitionist mean well. They know what's best for all of us.
Oct '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Majestyk
Having never touched a leaf of the bud in my life
Ah, yes but can you say the same about...Catnip!
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Severely Ltd.
Ah, yes but can you say the same about...Catnip! · 0 minutes ago
Hands off my oregano, man.
Jun '11
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Doesn't alter the sound libertarian reasons for lifting the ban. You can put what you want into your body, and take the consequences. I want legalization for two reasons: it is right in principle; nothing else works or can work. Bans are just an excuse for massively augmenting state power. And they don't work. We can't keep drugs out of maximum security prisons for heavens' sake. WFB's great issue of NR in the mid 90s on the Drug War being over is still dead right.
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
The salient point here is "started as teenagers". I didn't smoke until I was an adult and my IQ and cognitive abilities are fine. I don't mean to be boastful but, I actually have an excellent memory. Most people don't like to play trivia games with me. Apart from forgetting where I set something while actually high, I truly believe my intellect has not suffered from it. Motivation is another story and I appreciate that. But people under 20, who haven't got much of a brain yet anyway should definitely give it a miss.
Jul '12
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Mendel
I don't doubt for a second that chronic pot smoking from an early age can lead to permanent (but slight) cognitive impairment.
Based upon the article and the study, I'd say that the 8-point haircut on your IQ was probably the AVERAGE - that means that some people suffered less and some people more cognitive impairment. If the IQ a given subject was 100 when they were 13 when they started huffing the doobs and then got tested again when they were 38 there were probably examples they could find where IQ had dropped to as low as say... 84. Finding examples where the loss was twice the mean wouldn't be shocking - and frankly this sounds like the breeding ground for government-dependent boneheads.
I wouldn't be shocked to hear that regularly sucking on a tailpipe damaged your IQ as well - and it's perfectly legal. Just not wise.
If libertarians want a more libertarian society they shouldn't be espousing policies that are going to create more nincompoops who need government assistance.
EDIT: I'm willing to bet that there's long-term cognitive damage to adults as well. Time will tell.
Edited on August 29, 2012 at 1:11amMay '10
Re: Marijuana Costs IQ Points ... Still Want to Legalize It?
Just paid $120 for a month's supply of grandpa's anti-nausea-from-chemo-appetite-enhancer medicine that could be replaced by letting grandpa have a choom-laced cookie every day. Probably would improve his mood too.
There are terrible societal costs to maintaining the war on drugs that should be weighed against the societal costs of legalizing them.
Either way I don't care because it won't happen in my lifetime.