Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
The hyper-partisan Joshua Green is taking over the Andrew Sullivan Chair Of Reasoned Discourse at The Atlantic, apparently. He thought it would be brilliant to raise a hot button issue from 500 years ago into the Republican nomination process. What issue? The Reformation.
Yes, it's apparently news to the fine journalistic minds over at The Atlantic that Catholics anathematized Lutherans and that Lutherans consider the papacy to have the marks of the anti-Christ. We probably shouldn't tell them about the 30 Years War, either.
Well, apparently they want us to believe that Lutheran views on the papacy are a very serious stumbling block to Bachmann gaining the presidency. Right ....
Now, what's particularly choice about all this is that while I'm Lutheran, Bachmann isn't. She was affiliated with conservative Lutheran church body for decades but as any Lutheran will probably tell you, she really didn't sound Lutheran during her entire public life. But even so, she left the church officially last year.
Anyway, I critiqued this style of coverage over at GetReligion. But what do you think? Is voting for a Lutheran just a bridge too far for you?
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Comments:
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
So after I posted this, I see that Joshua Green has been rewarded for his partisan and bigoted reporting by just being hired at Businessweek to write on politics.
But of course.
Feb '11
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
You know, Mollie, as a papist I'm under strict orders from the Pope to either convert heathens like Lutherans (we have our ways) or to dispatch them to their true master: Satan. I'd pick an atheist over a heretic any day, at least the atheist is sufficiently morally malleable to be bent in service to the Lord's will.
Is this really how people think about religion and politics?
Dec '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
All of the Reformational Denominations view the Catholic Church as a false church. The Catholic Church declared all of us Reformationalist to be heretics and anathema years ago. From a Reformational standpoint the papacy most likely does have marks of an anti-Christ...but considering there have been many "anti-Christs" over the years and will be many more in the future that not really as huge a deal for anyone who view of Revelation and the end times doesn't come from Hollywood. There is a huge difference between an "anti-Christ" and "The Antichrist".
Of course she is "anti-Catholic" all protestant Christians are anti-Catholic. All Catholics are anti-Protestants, and all Christians are anti-Everyother religion. Being anti-other religions is pretty much a hallmark of the entire Christian faith and a huge reason we got feed to lions back in the day.
Reading the article its hard to tell if he is twisting things to try to gin up controversy or if he is simply ignorant.
Edit:
Ah "Ed G." I knew the stench of papacy was coming from somewhere.
Edited on July 14, 2011 at 3:28pmJul '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
I always thought Bachmann was shaky on the question of papal indulgences.
Aug '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Yeah, but where does she stand on transubstantiation? That's a deal breaker for me.
Jun '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Mormon here--one of my best friends is a card-carrying church-going Lutheran (I've known him for years, and he seems sane).
I prefer that our presidents have sincere religious beliefs (helps in the humility department).
Choosing a president out of some kind of tribal loyalty seems a bit bizarre. I'm most definitely not a Huntsman fan--I have problems with some of Mitt's positions, but will support him if he's the candidate. I had hoped Pawlenty would gain some traction--seems like he'd make a good president.
So let's talk Bachmann. I'm not a big fan, but that has absolutely nothing to do with her religion, My understanding is that she is religious and believes is the shared moral law; having no reason to doubt that, her religion is just fine with me.
I'm certain the whole Protestant/Catholic thing was true. But is that really something anyone cares about nowadays as a test for the presidency?
I'm ready to start a "draft-Cantor" movement if he keeps standing up to "the One." (Don't tell any one, but he's Jewish).
Edited on July 14, 2011 at 4:26pmMay '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
I was infant-baptized a Methodist, but raised and re-baptized Plymouth Bretheren (if you're unfamiliar, read Garrison Keillor's PB stories; he nails the milieu), then gradually found myself associating with the evangelical point of view, meanwhile attending various charismatic churches and groups, until finally--having married a Lutheran--I joined a Lutheran church which, although belonging to the Missouri Synod, manages to express all my previous church experiences, more or less. Therefore I am, supreme in all the world, qualified to comment on denominational questions.
And yet, I find myself with nothing new to say in this case. In other words, I agree with you: Bachmann radiates middle-American religion, which is non-denominational evangelical Christianity.
Edited on July 14, 2011 at 4:24pmAug '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Baptized a Lutheran in the twin cities, confirmed a Presbyterian in the midwest. That equals almost zero passion and little zeal. Chosen frozen is the term. Conservative lutherans probably sprung from too much bad architecture and too little passion from the pulpit.
I thought our present POTUS has left religion behind, how many pictures of him in church since he took office ? Bachmann is a conservative from Minnesota, the oxymoronic baggage in that sentence says it all. I thought my grandfather was the only conservative in the state . He used to say that he was never properly introduced to the Pope or any democrat leaders. That would qualify as Swedish Lutheran humor, but those were kinder days with lower thresholds of irony.
Edited on July 14, 2011 at 4:28pmJan '11
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Sorry, Atlantic. Lutherans and Catholics have already worked on this one, without Joshua Green's investigative brilliance.
1999: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
Text here.
Sep '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Well, as a long time subscriber to First Things, I cite the examples of the late Fr Richard Neuhaus and Reinhard Hutter to say that all us Raving Romanist Retreads will eventually bring you Recalcitrant Reformationist Runaways back into the fold. I can honestly say that renegade Lutherans fall just below Rioting Richardson groundsquirrels on my list of things that keep me up at night.
In the meantime, for those of you Protestant Ricocheteereformationists following along at home or office, you can do a lot worse than read Christian Brotherhood by that German guy.
Consider it dry land practice for your eventual swim across the Tiber.
Jul '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
I thought that Sullivan's work was hilarious enough, this is pure self-parody. Although I must point out that, according to Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod doctrine as quoted by Joshua Green, the Pope is irrefutably the Anti-Christ:
Since Scripture teaches that the Antichrist would be revealed and gives the marks by which the Antichrist is to be recognized, and since this prophecy has been clearly fulfilled in the history and development of the Roman Papacy, it is Scripture which reveals that the Papacy is the Antichrist.
It was not clear to me before that the Atlantic could descend deeper into self-parody in the post-Sullivan period. Congratulations Josh, on establishing the most arid unintentional humor site this side of the Atlantic.
Looking forward to the call to invade Mexico to bring relief to victims of the Inquisition. I think you've found the mother lode here, Josh.
Aug '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
KC Mulville: Sorry, Atlantic. Lutherans and Catholics have already worked on this one, without Joshua Green's investigative brilliance.
1999: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.
Text here. · Jul 14 at 7:27am
Durn ya, KC, ya beat me to it.
However, it should be noted that not all Lutherans participated in the joint declaration. Confessional Lutherans are said to reject it.
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Though my family is confidently Catholic, we spent a few summers going to a friend's Lutheran mass, attracted by a terrific vacation bible school the Lutherans were hosting each summer.
We loved the celebratory feel of the mass. It was quite joyous compared to our Catholic mass (which I often refer to, to my wife's chagrin, as "you're a sinner, pass the basket, you’re a sinner, pass the basket)."
While we were attending Lutheran masses, no one called us anti-Christ. Having given that good account of themselves, I can vote for a Lutheran for President.
Although America does owe us another Catholic president. The only one we had was killed.
Where’s Rudy?
Oct '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
I'm led to understand that my Lutheran pastor grandfather had some pretty choice things to say about the Pope.
K.C. makes a good point (as always!) about the Joint Declaration.
Regrettably, however, I must refer both my Lutheran and Catholic brothers and sisters to Martin Luther's views on the Antichrist. Here we find:
"The second thing that Luther read in 1520 that weakened his hesitancy to openly declare that the Pope was Antichrist was Prierias’ second treatise against Luther’s teachings. Reprising his earlier arguments that the Pope had more authority than either Scriptures or church councils, Prierias quoted a passage of canon law that horrified Luther: the Pope could not be deposed from office even if he 'were so scandalously bad that he led multitudes of souls to the devil.'"
If that passage remains in Canon Law, then the Pope is Antichrist. Regardless, the doctrine of Papal infallibility (yes, yes, ex cathedra, I know) is anti-Christian.
Sorry.
Aug '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
As for my answer to "Are You Now, Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?"
I was baptized Presbyterian (sorta -- it was a "community church"). My parents, though irreligious themselves, forced me to get confirmed in the same church, though I didn't yet consider myself ready for confirmation. Luckily, though, I later made good on my confirmation (such as it was), and decided that I really did believe.
Went to an ELCA Lutheran church for a while, but left, vowing never to return, after something bad happened there. With the passage of time, though, I've more-or-less made my peace with Lutheranism (the bad thing that happened wasn't Lutheranism's fault, but sinful humanity's fault) and would attend a Lutheran church again if it were the congregation I found most welcoming in my neighborhood.
Oct '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Another quote from "Martin Luther's Views on the Antichrist," this time specifically for Joshua Green. It is, in fact, from the opening paragraph:
"In the warm ecumenical afterglow of Vatican II, Martin Luther’s identification of the papacy as the Antichrist of Bible prophecy is often seen as narrow-minded, bigoted, and even unchristian. His view, which until recently was shared by a broad spectrum of conservative Evangelical Protestants..."
Sep '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Everyone here with a dog in the fight should read:
Evangelicals and Catholics Together from 1994
Aug '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
I am not thrilled with her cozying up to the Schwarmers in Iowa for a handful of straw. Would that she were more Lutheran, not less.
Better a wise Turk than a foolish Christian.
She is no fool on taxes and spending. Pandering to the religious right is not my cup of tea- but it beats managerial progressivism.
That Atlantic piece was lame. Josh should be embarrassed.
The sharks are in full Palin feeding-frenzy mode. Hide the chum Ed Rollins!
Hide. The. Chum.
Edited on July 14, 2011 at 5:47pmJan '11
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
Ok, let's work on this one.
There is nothing in Canon Law now, nor to my understanding has there ever been, any direct canon that establishes a procedure to remove a pope. However, that doesn't mean that a pope can't be removed.
The Catholic Church doesn't follow the same legal system that we're familiar with. Our country works by statute, and it means that you can't proceed unless the law specifically empowers you. Not so for the Church. Just because there's no specific law doesn't mean there's no way to proceed.
There is precedent for the Councils having authority here. When several rivals claimed to be pope, the Councils deposed all of them and made a decision, implying that the Councils would have enough authority to depose a pope.
If Prierias' argument is that we must accept every pope no matter how bad, that's clearly wrong.
May '10
Re: Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been ... A Lutheran?
The Lutheran view of consubstantiation isn't too far off transubstantiation. As I understand it, Catholics believe the bread and wine have literally turned into body and blood (the transformed essences of which have been shielded from our mortal inspection), while Lutherans believe in a literal presence that accompanies (but does not occupy) the sacrament. So if Bachmann can articulate the difference, that's good enough for me.
A bigger question for me used to be Missouri Synod vs. ELCA, but now I find myself scurrying back from the latter to the former.
Mollie, with which conservative Lutheran body was Bachmann associated? The Wisconsin Synod?