The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Scarlet Pimpernel ·
November 4, 2012 at 8:10pm
For a few weeks I have been pondering this moment from the Vice Presidential debate. After Congressman Ryan highlighted Governor Romney's generosity, Vice President Biden commented, "Look, I don't doubt his personal generosity."
So Biden's criticism is that Romney is not generous enough with other people's money?
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Comments:
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
This ought to be on the main feed.
Apr '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Good catch, Scarlet Pimpernel!
Sep '10
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
and that would be good for the adjective post. what other kind of generosity is there?
Mar '11
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Further on in that same Biden segment, he says:
Putting aside that "something" evidently does not include Romney's well-documented charitable contributions, literally putting his money where his mouth is--this is now the definition of 'responsible', and has been since the Great Society.
Nevermind if it is a policy that works. Nevermind if the lot of the recipient is actually improved. Nevermind if the policy is wasteful, nevermind if it bankrupts us, nevermind if it creates moral hazard. Nevermind. Just show me a policy.
Edited on November 4, 2012 at 8:53pmSep '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Ooooooh, right! That really does get to the heart of many conservative/liberal differences. I've thought for a while that liberals really do believe they can be vicariously generous by supporting state action that doles out tax money, and that relieves them of the need to be personally generous.
A question for some of our Machiavelli readers and scholars: didn't he give advice in The Prince that a ruler should be generous with other people's money but not with his own?
Edited on November 4, 2012 at 8:46pmApr '11
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Joe Biden's philosophy: I will give that man the shirt off your back.
Mar '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
" Literally putting his money where his mouth is." His mouth? Isn't that where Biden spends his money?
Apr '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
"Either a prince spends that which is his own or his subjects' or else that of others. In the first case he ought to be sparing, in the second he ought not to neglect any opportunity for liberality. And to the price who goes forth with his army, supporting it by pillage, sack, and extortion, handling that which belongs to others, this liberality is necessary, otherwise he would not be followed by soldiers. And of that which is neither yours nor your subjects' you can be a ready giver, as were Cyrus, Caesar, and Alexander; because it does not take away your reputation if you squander that of others, but adds to it; it is only squandering your own that injures you." The Prince: Machiavelli 1532; Chapter 16
Karl Marx's views on the subject are also interesting:
"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." Karl Marx, 1848. "The Communist Manifesto"
Mar '11
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Red Feline
"Either a prince spends that which is his own or his subjects' or else that of others. In the first case he ought to be sparing, in the second he ought not to neglect any opportunity for liberality. And to the price who goes forth with his army, supporting it by pillage, sack, and extortion, handling that which belongs to others, this liberality is necessary...it does not take away your reputation if you squander that of others, but adds to it; it is only squandering your own that injures you." The Prince: Machiavelli 1532; Chapter 16
Karl Marx's views on the subject are also interesting:
"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." Karl Marx
Machiavelli & Marx; two incredibly intelligent men. What a tragedy that they squandered their gifts in perfecting the means to enslave others.
There is a lesson here in the dangerous nature of putting trust in those who merely appear intelligent, rather than wise.
Edited on November 5, 2012 at 12:36amSep '10
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Crow's Nest: Further on in that same Biden segment, he says:
Putting aside that "something" evidently does not include Romney's well-documented charitable contributions, literally putting his money where his mouth is--this is now the definition of 'responsible', and has been since the Great Society.
Nevermind if it is a policy that works. Nevermind if the lot of the recipient is actually improved. Nevermind if the policy is wasteful, nevermind if it bankrupts us, nevermind if it creates moral hazard. Nevermind. Just show me a policy. · 2 hours ago
Edited 2 hours ago
Hence the unquestioning genuflecting before Moloch's altar at Planned Parenthood.
Oct '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Sandy has clearly shown that government has a role in helping out those less fortunate members of our society. You call this being generous with other people's money. I call it basic decency.
Mar '11
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Mr. Pig Man, picking someone else's pocket to sooth your conscience is a very odd definition of decency.
You did not perform the labor for that wealth, you did not make the sacrifice when another citizen's savings are taken to appease your whims.
This is not decency, it is childishness.
Apr '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Roberto
Machiavelli & Marx two incredibly intelligent men. What a tragedy that they squandered their gifts in perfecting the means to enslave others.
There is a lesson here in the dangerous nature of putting trust in those who merely appear intelligent, rather than wise. · 1 hour ago
Edited 1 hour ago
When I first read The Prince by Machiavelli, I was very impressed by his realism. Knowing that he had seen the overthrow of a Prince he had admired, I saw this book as advice to the incoming Prince so that he would be strong and bring good government to the City State. He was laying it out as it often is. I entertained a few dinner parties by talking about his ideas. :-)
I agree that intelligence is not wisdom. Karl Marx was laying down the foundation for class warfare, union thinking, and envisioned a totalitarian state, certainly not a democracy. A Jew, he was thrown out of Germany, as you know doubt know, as an agitator, and was obviously filled with a hatred of society as it was. He certainly took his revenge!
Apr '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Conservatives also want to help those less fortunate members of our society. The difference is that Conservatives want to give people a hand up when they are going through a bad patch, Progressives seem to want to carry people on their backs, like Sindbad with the Old Man of the Sea. It didn't take too long before Sindbad found it was too much.
Have you ever tried to "help" anyone, Pig man? I have. I found I hated myself for my condescending position, and the person I was "helping" ended up taking advantage of me. I learned a lot.
And I wasn't using someone else's money at that time. I did when I worked for the United Way in British Columbia, Canada. Then I really hated myself because I was very good at convincing hard-working people in large corporations that they should give generously to the United Way.
Edited on November 5, 2012 at 12:58amSep '10
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
How does the special and temporary case of natural disaster prove the government has a role in redistributing wealth to all the millions of people living off welfare, EBT etc.?
Mar '11
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Pseudodionysius
Crow's Nest: Further on in that same Biden segment, he says:
Putting aside that "something" evidently does not include Romney's well-documented charitable contributions, literally putting his money where his mouth is--this is now the definition of 'responsible', and has been since the Great Society.
Nevermind if it is a policy that works. Nevermind if the lot of the recipient is actually improved. Nevermind if the policy is wasteful, nevermind if it bankrupts us, nevermind if it creates moral hazard. Nevermind. Just show me a policy. · 2 hours ago
Edited 2 hours ago
Hence the unquestioning genuflecting before Moloch's altar at Planned Parenthood. · 2 hours ago
The world is brutal enough without this... better to accept there are those who act out of adolescence and error. It does not lessen the horror, but such leaves room for forgiveness.
Aug '10
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
"Sure, you're generous in reality, but are you generous in theory?"
Not only is this a liberal/conservative contrast, Biden's objection is an insight into the mind of a lifelong bureaucrat:
Decisions about money, made through the judgement of a private individual, are meaningless. Unless you can institutionalize that judgement, write it down, turn it into a rote process that can scale to mindless bureaucracies everywhere... turn it into a policy... it is meaningless sentiment.
There's a whole separate tangent that could riff on this, about the problems with scaling small solutions. Personal judgement doesn't scale up very well, especially not by orders of magnitude. Neither does pure laboratory science like the breakthroughs we've seen in the renewable/alternative energy field. Even political and economic systems don't scale well--democracy has trouble scaling to millions of people; little-c communism can actually work over short periods of time for very small homogeneous populations, while causing disasters at the national level.
The idea that we can turn every good thing into a fair, successful, nationally-scaling policy, is the fatal conceit of top-down government and central planners everywhere.
Oct '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Roberto
Mr. Pig Man, picking someone else's pocket to sooth your conscience is a very odd definition of decency.
You did not perform the labor for that wealth, you did not make the sacrifice when another citizen's savings are taken to appease your whims.
This is not decency, it is childishness. · 3 hours ago
So Roberto, it is childish for the government to help out the hurricane survivors? You think we should just let them rot?
Oct '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
Red Feline
Have you ever tried to "help" anyone, Pig man? I have. I found I hated myself for my condescending position, and the person I was "helping" ended up taking advantage of me. I learned a lot.
Edited 2 hours ago
I have volunteered for several charity organizations and found it very satisfying. The folks I helped were grateful. Sorry you didn't have the same experience....
Oct '12
Re: The Most Revealing Moment of the Campaign?
kylez
How does the special and temporary case of natural disaster prove the government has a role in redistributing wealth to all the millions of people living off welfare, EBT etc.? · 2 hours ago
Obviously we have different views on the role of government and we are not going to change each other's minds. Welfare is a relatively small part of our government outlays. When you think of "government" you probably think of bureaucrats , regulators, and liberal politicians. I think of teachers, police, fireman and the armed forces. I do think we need to "transfer wealth" to these people. Do you agree that in the case of a natural (or man-made) disaster, government needs to step up?