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We’re back after our 4th of July break (well, most of us are back — we have Ricochet Editor Bethany Mandel sitting in for the vacationing Peter Robinson) and we’ve got another super-sized episode to make up for our time off. First up, the always great Heather Mac Donald, who speaks truth to protestors like nobody else. Then, meet Shermichael Singleton, former political strategist, a former Deputy Chief of Staff at HUD, and a former member of the GOP. Shermichael tells us why he’s left the latter two organizations and it should be required listening at the RNC. Luckily for us, Shermichael is a current Ricochet podcaster and if you have not listened to the Speak-Easy podcast he co-hosts with Antonia Okafor, we highly recommend it. Also, a bit on the Harper’s free speech letter, the triumphant return of the Lileks Post of The Week, and Bethany has a new Twitter friend.
Music from this week’s show: Everything Is Broken by Bob Dylan
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The point may be that police have dangerous jobs, and they probably don’t mostly interact with people who have done Nothing At All. (Or if they do, they still have to be on their guard because of Reality.) Other people understand that, contemplate the difficult job that police have to do, and accept that it’s not personal – or racial – and don’t stew about it for possibly the rest of their life. On the other hand, some people decide it must be Racism and it sometimes destroys their lives, and maybe their children’s too if their children are taught to fear police at any turn.
Have you read some of the other Personal Stories that have been posted, including by whites who might have been in an area where a rape or robbery or something had just been reported, and how the police reacted if they happened to maybe just partly match a description? They also knew that they might have been injured, or killed, if they misbehaved even a little. It often seemed to INCREASE their respect for the police, not lessen it.
And then, as Heather Mac Donald pointed out, keep in mind that statistically, blacks commit about four times the amount of crime vs their share of the population. Which means that, again statistically – not taking into account certain neighborhoods or other factors that could increase the odds even further – that any random black person encountered by police is at least four times as likely to be a criminal, than any random white person encountered by police.
Really? Your parents never told you to be cooperative and not combative when interacting with the police?
I started watching Live PD last year. What was surprising was just how many people they stopped were rude to the cops, no matter how nice the cops were to them. The “how dare you diss me” attitude was common, as was the number of people caught with drugs in their car or on their person. Also common, the attitude of “I haven’t done anything wrong.” Finally, another thing I saw was the number of people who run or tremble in fear because they have been taught to believe cops would just as soon shoot them. I hope A&E brings back the show. Seems some don’t like cops being shown in a good light and the behavior of the perps they deal with every day.
The way I hear it and see it, a lot of black parents aren’t telling their kids – or demonstrating through their own actions – to be cooperative and not combative, it seems more like “run and hide!” Or at least that’s how the kids often end up interpreting it.
My favorite thing on those shows is the occasional guy running away from the cops with bags of dope hanging out of his pockets, yelling “It’s not mine! It’s not mine!”
Not my car, not my purse, not my pants, not my ….. yep, all the time. I miss the car and foot chases, K9s, and cops who were caring of their communities. I have met some of them since the Richland County Sheriff has a great community outreach, including at the state fair. The deputies also work traffic and security at Gamecock football games.
RCSD is one reason the protests that turned violent were short-lived on that day, and didn’t reoccur. When a violent mob formed after the peaceful protest, intent on burning down the Columbia PD building, RCSD was there with a secure perimeter. Columbia PD sacrificed a few cars rather than shooting people while gathering a lot of footage they used to arrest the perps later….over 100 so far. When the mob dispersed then reformed in a popular district, breaking glass and trying to loot, they quickly responded and ended it. Citizens showed up the next morning to clean the sidewalks. I happened to pass through the area recently and saw no signs of the riot. One video of a mob attacking a man on the sidewalk made national media. One of the two perps was quickly arrested while a BOLO was out for the second guy thanks to videos.
I grew up with the understanding of police as helpers, friends, protectors, servants of the community. I remember waving at police as they drove by in squad cars back when I was in junior high school. The idea that they could be threatening, dangerous assailants, even if you had done nothing wrong, would have been bizarre. Why would we even think about such a thing, let alone have deeply serious conversations about how to avoid doing anything that might further provoke an aggressive police officer?
The way I hear it, a lot of black children (~ > 70%) don’t even have a black father around. I’m certainly open to how that creates disadvantages. It could very well be that many aren’t as prepared as they could be for such a situation.
Even if we assume for discussion’s sake that were true in some portion of the cases. That wouldn’t in any way justify the unacceptable reality that black citizens are finding it necessary to learn how to deescalate the aggressions of certain abusive cops.
I grew up the same way you did. I still was told to cooperate and not argue/fight if I ever had to interact with them. It’s just basic commons ense.
I explicitly said this isn’t about assuming generalized racism by whites. Police can be abusive because they have been trained to be so (e.g. by other abusive cops, cf. George Floyd cops) and have adopted a pattern of aggressive tactics based on the prejudicial presumption that this person is likely guilty because they are black. You described it yourself:
And yet, that doesn’t justify treating all blacks as if one can presume their guilt. Doing so is the definition of prejudice.
The question is about how they treat black people when they have done Nothing At All. Our society doesn’t accept the standard that it’s OK to abuse the innocent as a means to seeking the guilty. It is a violation of civil rights to treat the innocent as if due to the color of their skin they can be assumed to be guilty and deadly dangerous.
Case in pont:
Speak-Easy #5
Remembering Elijah McClain
You still haven’t answered the multiple choice question I asked about the Michael Jr. video.
a) Justified / appropriate / acceptable?
b) Must not be true as described?
c) Needs to be changed.
I don’t know if that’s possible “in a vacuum,” as it were. Is it fair to expect the cops to treat everyone exactly the same when they know, as a statistical fact, that they’re at least 4 times more likely to encounter a random black criminal than a random white criminal? And the chances are much higher in certain areas.
Maybe rather than demand the police de-escalate first, the black community should de-criminalize first? It seems far more likely that police react to statistical levels of criminal behavior, rather than law-abiding people become criminals because a cop got in their face.
I have a rule to disagree with anyone who says that anything is basic “common sense”. It assumes that someone should know it without it being taught.
My sons all got some version of “the talk”. However, in looking back, they had all been in the car with my husband and I on at least one occasion each where they watched us interact with police.
Because of my own experiences, I have a real problem with the arrogance and attitude of some police. I have not always been able to keep my temper, but on the other hand, at 5’0″ I can assume I’ve never been perceived as a threat. Though there was that one time a cop called for back up when I sat on the porch watching him spend 40 minutes writing a ticket for son #2 …
As I wrote before, check out those stories by white people of how the police treated them if they were in an area where a crime had been committed and they might resemble the description… They were perfectly aware that they might end up injured or dead if they didn’t do exactly what they were told. So, how is that different? To me it doesn’t sound any different in treatment, the difference is the percentage of criminal activity overall, I might say. And frankly, if white people committed four times the amount of crime of black people, while being only 13% or so of the population, I wouldn’t be surprised if it went the other way. Should anyone else be surprised?
Shorter version: get back to me if there’s still a problem when blacks account for only 13% (or less) of crime, as they are 13% of the population.
Since you keep appealing to this, there is a misleading error in reasoning leading to a faulty conclusion. To see the prejudicial error in reasoning clearly, imagine an exaggerated scenario.
Suppose next year that 90% of all homicides are committed by one black man. In terms of crime, that is FAR beyond the black percentage of population. If you chose a random homicide, would it be fair to guess that the homicide was likely committed by a black man? Yes, of course. But if you chose a random black man, would it be fair to assume that this black man in front of you was more likely than not a killer? No, not at all.
It is illegitimate and immoral to justify mistreatment of all blacks based on the fact that a minority of blacks make a disproportionate contribution to crime. There is a name for treating all in a group as if they had the fault of the minority. It is called Prejudice.
Yes, fair, moral, and legally required. Cops must respond proportionately to the actual events, regardless of skin color or personal prejudices. I expect most cops do this just fine. Anything else is a violation. Was the response to Elijah McClain justifiably proportionate? How about to Michael Jr.? You still haven’t answered my question about that.
So all blacks should remain fair game for abuse until the minority of black criminals is smaller?? Really??
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps… then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”
― Jesse Jackson
Significant quote.
You’ll notice that there is nothing at all in that quote that would justify Jesse Jackson or anyone else prejudicially abusing all blacks as if they can be assumed to be criminals. It is good not to confuse concern over black crime with a warrant for presumptive abusive mistreatment of all blacks. The latter is illegitimate and immoral, exactly as I said. I’m confident Jesse Jackson would agree with me. The quotation doesn’t change that moral issue of abuse and mistreatment in the slightest.
Where was your evidence that this was an actual national problem, again?
Some people believe, based on surveys, that Canada has a worse record regarding abuse against women than the Democratic Republic of the Congo:
I never made a claim about frequency across the country. Or what parts of the country were worse or better. Or what percentage of cops are the bad apples that give policing a bad name.
What I did point out is that a great many black men have encountered this type of unwarranted and illegitimate abuse. It would be harder to find black men who haven’t than those who have. Take the time to listen and learn.
That doesn’t mean most cops are bad. It doesn’t mean it’s equally bad everywhere.
Wherever the shoe fits, change needs to happen. Respecting civil rights and basic moral standards requires it. It is immoral whenever blacks are prejudicially abused and mistreated because they have black skin just like the black criminals.
That argument/claim strikes me as questionable too. It sounds like the people who “believe” that hundreds or even thousands of unarmed blacks are shot and killed by the police each year, when the actual number I recall from at least one year, was NINE. In the whole country. And again, as Heather Mac Donald notes, the share of whites shot/killed by police is actually higher.
As various people have noted at various times in various Ricochet-hosted podcasts and in comments etc, the plural of anecdote is not evidence. I would want to see far more carefully authenticated proof of these claims, rather than just “talk to black men” or “look at these youtube videos” etc. (Note: I don’t just believe any claim made by white people either.)
Take the time to provide evidence that this narrative is more accurate than the narrative that 50% of the women in Canada have experienced physical or sexual abuse.
And at least five of the nine were attacking the officer.
They probably count “heard a dirty joke” as “sexual abuse.”
A policewoman‘s mom I used to know in New Jersey told me she was stopped for speeding and decided not to take advantage of her “gold card” as a police family member.
She was shocked by how rude the officer was, when he didn’t know of her police connection. N.B.: This woman is as white as they come.
Now, I have to say that I have never encountered a traffic officer who was other than polite. Perhaps because I’m polite to them.
Yes, and the other thing that gets me is the “unarmed black teen” meme, such as 18-year-old adult, 6′ 4″ tall, 292 lb Michael Brown who was trying to grab a cop’s gun.
And sometimes people have a bad day, the officer might have just left a horrible domestic violence situation or Ghod knows what… One thing we can be reasonably confident of, OUR bad days are nowhere near as bad as THEIR bad days.
And reports of ‘unwarranted and illegitimate abuse’ probably include a lot of subjective reactions like with this viral dog cartoon:
Which reminds me, I still don’t understand why that Black Panther movie and stuff, is so popular, or is supposed to be so uplifting or whatever… What, black people can’t create a successful society unless they have a pile of magic meteor metal to do everything for them?
I heard the character and his country was originally created by a racist white man…..which is very easy to believe. In any event, the ‘resource curse’ would likely cause any otherwise small economy ‘blessed’ with magic meteor metal to become a hellhole.
It applies the other way too – there’s no warrant to assume all cops are bad and going to abuse people just because they’re cops.
Excellent point. You are quite correct about that!
I completely agree, and I’ve made the same point. Just one recent example:
If people want studies regarding abusive use of force, we just had a Harvard economist guest with one of the most detailed studies ever undertaken. But when people try to take the line, “Can you prove that it’s a national problem?”, that misses the key point.
What we need is to affirm a national standard of morality and civil rights in which there is zero tolerance for prejudicial abuse of police authority and force, and zero tolerance for making excuses for prejudicial abuse that keep the bad apples on the streets with badges and guns. Whether that affirmed standard is violated by many cops or few is not the point. The standard for treating people equally regardless of skin color is the only acceptable standard across the nation.
If it turns out that George Floyd was killed by the only four cops in that police force who failed that standard, that would be great news. If Michael Jr. was abused by the only cops in their police force who failed that standard, that would be great news. But whether there are 4, 40, 400, or 4000 cops who operate like that, the standard is the same regardless and the bad apples need to be removed regardless, not excused.
The system that excuses, protects, and keeps the bad apples in place needs to change. It is completely incredible to me that the cop that directly killed George Floyd was not only still on the streets even after more than a dozen previous complaints (17 IIRC?), but was involved in training less experienced officers. Him training others??
Objection, assuming facts not in evidence!