The Fall of Michelle Malkin

 

At an alt-right conference running counter to CPAC, called AFPAC, conservative commentator Michelle Malkin fell further down the rabbit-hole:

In this short clip Malkin engages in not just Holocaust denial, but also indiscriminately throws around charges of dual loyalty. It’s part of a trend for Malkin, who also endorsed anti-Semite Paul Nehlen in his contest against Rep. Paul Ryan.

In her opening remarks, Malkin referred to herself as the “Mommy” of the group and thanked the “Groypers,” the alt-right group hosting her, for pushing back against mainstream conservatives.

It’s hard to overstate Malkin’s influence in the conservative media ecosystem; she is the founder of HotAir, Twitchy, and was a mentor to many up-and-comers over the course of her time at the helm of both.

And because of Malkin’s influence, we (as a conservative movement) need to self-reflect about how reflective Malkin’s views are of our movement as a whole. Has Malkin always questioned the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust? Has Malkin always considered Jews to be agents of the Israeli government? How mainstream are the views she’s professing now in the conservative movement? They are uncomfortable questions, but ones we need to be asking as we continue to (rightly) call out the anti-Semitism on the Left with Omar, Tlaib, etc.

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  1. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    drlorentz (View Comment):

    Hey, @bethanymandel, how’s it goin’?

    There’s another post up by the author about the election.  I’d imagine there’s no perceived need or desire to wade into this discussion,  no matter how many comments it’s generated, which I regard as unfortunate.  Go figure.

     

    • #211
  2. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Definition of Holocaust Denial from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: “Holocaust denial is any attempt to negate the established facts of the Nazi genocide of European Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion are forms of antisemitism, prejudice against or hatred of Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion generally claim that the Holocaust was invented or exaggerated by Jews as part of a plot to advance Jewish interests.”

    That would seem to be a self-serving definition of antisemitism. Isn’t it possible to not have any animus towards Jewish people and still think that millions were not killed? Couldn’t it just be either ignorance, or perhaps a distrust of historians? Historians have been known to tell lies too.

    Of course millions of Jews were killed. But I don’t think it requires one to be anti-semitic to not believe that.

    My wife strangely thinks no one ever walked on the moon. So does my neighbor who is a professor of pharmacology. Does that make them anti-American?

    So out of pure ignorance? Well, I would hope that if I do meet someone like that I can point them to some great books and websites on the subject. I love history, and love to share what I know. More often than out, however, you will find that those who question the data are doing so with another agenda in mind. They tend to treat the Holocaust as another conspiracy by Jews.

    I don’t think I have heard of a general distrust of Holocaust historians.

    Speaking of those guys, here is the wiki entry;

    According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, “[a]ll the serious research” confirms that between five and six million Jews died. Early postwar calculations were 4.2 to 4.5 million from Gerald Reitlinger; 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg; and 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. In 1990 Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett estimated 5.59–5.86 million, and in 1991 Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to just over 6 million.[ad] The figures include over one million children. Much of the uncertainty stems from the lack of a reliable figure for the number of Jews in Europe in 1939, border changes that make double-counting of victims difficult to avoid, lack of accurate records from the perpetrators, and uncertainty about whether to include post-liberation deaths caused by the persecution.

    So these historians are all a bunch of nazis.

    • #212
  3. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Definition of Holocaust Denial from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: “Holocaust denial is any attempt to negate the established facts of the Nazi genocide of European Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion are forms of antisemitism, prejudice against or hatred of Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion generally claim that the Holocaust was invented or exaggerated by Jews as part of a plot to advance Jewish interests.”

    That would seem to be a self-serving definition of antisemitism. Isn’t it possible to not have any animus towards Jewish people and still think that millions were not killed? Couldn’t it just be either ignorance, or perhaps a distrust of historians? Historians have been known to tell lies too.

    Of course millions of Jews were killed. But I don’t think it requires one to be anti-semitic to not believe that.

    My wife strangely thinks no one ever walked on the moon. So does my neighbor who is a professor of pharmacology. Does that make them anti-American?

    No, not if that’s the only weird thing they believe. Suppose your professor neighbor also believes that America caused 9/11, that there are sharks in the Atlantic because hundreds of millions of slaves were tossed overboard, that the lightbulb, telegraph, and phonograph are frauds because Edison never existed, and the US armed forces are the reason that AIDS has spread around the world. Wouldn’t you begin to suspect that old Prof might, just might have some problems with America that go well beyond the Moon landing?

    I’d never heard the sharks-in-the-Atlantic ghost story before. 

    • #213
  4. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Definition of Holocaust Denial from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: “Holocaust denial is any attempt to negate the established facts of the Nazi genocide of European Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion are forms of antisemitism, prejudice against or hatred of Jews. Holocaust denial and distortion generally claim that the Holocaust was invented or exaggerated by Jews as part of a plot to advance Jewish interests.”

    That would seem to be a self-serving definition of antisemitism. Isn’t it possible to not have any animus towards Jewish people and still think that millions were not killed? Couldn’t it just be either ignorance, or perhaps a distrust of historians? Historians have been known to tell lies too.

    Of course millions of Jews were killed. But I don’t think it requires one to be anti-semitic to not believe that.

    My wife strangely thinks no one ever walked on the moon. So does my neighbor who is a professor of pharmacology. Does that make them anti-American?

    No, not if that’s the only weird thing they believe. Suppose your professor neighbor also believes that America caused 9/11, that there are sharks in the Atlantic because hundreds of millions of slaves were tossed overboard, that the lightbulb, telegraph, and phonograph are frauds because Edison never existed, and the US armed forces are the reason that AIDS has spread around the world. Wouldn’t you begin to suspect that old Prof might, just might have some problems with America that go well beyond the Moon landing?

    But it is not a requirement. It is perfectly logically possible for someone to love Jews and be very nice to them and yet not believe something they haven’t seen with their own eyes. Not believing what our history books tell us does not make someone ipso facto antisemitic. It may very well be the case, but it is not a requirement. When someone makes a definition like that, it tells me that they are motivated to control people more than be truthful. What does a label mean anyway? A rose by any other name . . . Either someone is treats people badly or he doesn’t. What they believe about history is irrelevant, and what they feel in their hearts is out of bounds.

    In support of this I would point out that there are people who collect conspiracy theories to believe in. I suspect they are kind of addictive after awhile. 

    • #214
  5. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):
    The OP identified someone who is playing the antisemitism game in front of an audience sympathetic to white nationalism and antisemitism.

    Simply not true. Waiting for you to “reject” the OP on the grounds of playing games with race and religion.

    I think it is pretty clear that I agree with the premise of the OP. I think the questions laid out in the end of the OP are fair to ask Michelle Malkin based on her recent statements.

    So are you saying that Ricochet should have her on a podcast to ask her the questions? Or that @bethanymandel should call her up on the Conservaphone™ and discuss it? Because what I’m seeing here is a post by a conservative pundit trashing another conservative pundit for Failure To Distance, and I’m getting kind of a mean girl vibe here. 

    • #215
  6. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    TBA (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):
    The OP identified someone who is playing the antisemitism game in front of an audience sympathetic to white nationalism and antisemitism.

    Simply not true. Waiting for you to “reject” the OP on the grounds of playing games with race and religion.

    I think it is pretty clear that I agree with the premise of the OP. I think the questions laid out in the end of the OP are fair to ask Michelle Malkin based on her recent statements.

    So are you saying that Ricochet should have her on a podcast to ask her the questions? Or that @bethanymandel should call her up on the Conservaphone™ and discuss it? Because what I’m seeing here is a post by a conservative pundit trashing another conservative pundit for Failure To Distance, and I’m getting kind of a mean girl vibe here.

    That’s exactly what I suggested much earlier. Someone with access to Malkin should ask her about it instead of all this speculation and accusation.

    • #216
  7. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    TBA (View Comment):

    Speaking of those guys, here is the wiki entry;

    According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, “[a]ll the serious research” confirms that between five and six million Jews died. Early postwar calculations were 4.2 to 4.5 million from Gerald Reitlinger; 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg; and 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. In 1990 Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett estimated 5.59–5.86 million, and in 1991 Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to just over 6 million.[ad] The figures include over one million children. Much of the uncertainty stems from the lack of a reliable figure for the number of Jews in Europe in 1939, border changes that make double-counting of victims difficult to avoid, lack of accurate records from the perpetrators, and uncertainty about whether to include post-liberation deaths caused by the persecution.

    So these historians are all a bunch of nazis.

    That is a lot of questioning of the “precise number”.

    • #217
  8. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    The only reason people have any desire to question the magnitude of the Holocaust is because it has been used to justify Jewish Nationalism and the interests of Jews while generally claiming that nationalism and identity/collective interests are evil.

    The reason nationalists grasp at the Jews is because they want the same accordance given to Israel and support for a kind of Jewish cultural isolation and preservation that is actively fought against, specifically for white Americans but really for all other demographics in the west. There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society, but largely conservatives are against that, too… except for where Jews are concerned.

    But the Holocaust is held up as some unique and unparalleled tragedy (even though genocides have happened before). Because of this unparalleled evil specifically targeting Jews (even though 4 million non jews died too), we defend Jewish nationalism and turn a blind eye to their ethno chauvinism. We even promote it in US policy and law (Defense and promotion of Israel over Palestinians, anti-BDS laws).

    So if there is incentive among nationalists to minimize the holocaust, it isn’t to deny Israel or Jews the right to self and cultural preservation, ethno-states, or ethno chauvinism but rather to lay claim to their rights for the same.

    • #218
  9. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Stina (View Comment):
    The only reason people have any desire to question the magnitude of the Holocaust is because it has been used to justify Jewish Nationalism and the interests of Jews while generally claiming that nationalism and identity/collective interests are evil.

    I disagree with that premise. That is probably a reason, but it’s not the only one.

    • #219
  10. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    The only reason people have any desire to question the magnitude of the Holocaust is because it has been used to justify Jewish Nationalism and the interests of Jews while generally claiming that nationalism and identity/collective interests are evil.

    I disagree with that premise. That is probably a reason, but it’s not the only one.

    Pretty certain it is the only reason at that conference.

    Maybe not for the imaginary skinhead with Swastika tattoos, but certainly for well-dressed, politically engaged, nationalists.

    • #220
  11. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Stina (View Comment):
    The reason nationalists grasp at the Jews is because they want the same accordance given to Israel and support for a kind of Jewish cultural isolation and preservation that is actively fought against, specifically for white Americans but really for all other demographics in the west. There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society, but largely conservatives are against that, too… except for where Jews are concerned.

    I never considered white to be a cultural group.  Maybe that’s just a product of having grown up in Chicago, famous for its ethnic enclave neighborhoods. White was just what black people called me, otherwise there were the Polish, Irish, Italians, Lithuanians, Slovaks, etc. and then the mutts (northsiders). 

    Maybe another product of that upbringing is that I’m not against cultural preservation or some isolation. The difference, I think, is that while we all had our flavors we were also all Americans first, identifying with Columbus, the Pilgrims, the Founders, Lincoln, baseball, and apple pie. 

    • #221
  12. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Stina (View Comment):
    There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society

    What I object to is the difference based on group. It should be ok for all or ok for none. Going further, I’d say that that without an overriding identity for all then our project in self government is doomed to truly tribal squabbles and feuds, and on against policies that tear down that common identity while encouraging isolation. So I’m against identitarianism for all of those reasons. 

    • #222
  13. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    And here’s Richard Spencer himself on the subject:

    • #223
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    From another angle (The Daily Beast) how conservatives and progressives differ about what causes antisemitism:

    …progressives say nationalist, racist ideology, while conservatives say hate. The difference may seem slight, but in fact, it’s why right and left talk past one another…

    • #224
  15. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Stina (View Comment):
    we defend Jewish nationalism and turn a blind eye to their ethno chauvinism.

    I think this is true, and I think it’s weird that people dont see it. Then comes the double standards. 

    Although, I dont think Jewish is an ethnicity. It sometimes behaves like one, unlike say Buddhist or Lutheran.

    • #225
  16. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society

    What I object to is the difference based on group. It should be ok for all or ok for none. Going further, I’d say that that without an overriding identity for all then our project in self government is doomed to truly tribal squabbles and feuds, and on against policies that tear down that common identity while encouraging isolation. So I’m against identitarianism for all of those reasons.

    I agree with your first sentence.

    I reject your final assessment. This country was believed to have what it took to be successful as a federation of many distinct nations. Virginians were Virginians first. It is the attempt to erase those distinctions among the American  nations and make us all exactly the same that is one reason we have such a large central state. It was supposed to be a national cooperative to defend our way of life while pursuing our own distinct interests within our own states. But together, we would unite to defend all of our states together – because we are stronger when presenting a united front to an aggressor than we would be separated.

    However, just because we are stronger together when opposing an outside aggressor does not mean we should attempt to be exactly the same across our states.

    And it is interesting that individualists see something wrong with this formation. Its like if we are all unique individuals, the government can’t  pick one out or something? But instead, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, further removed from the individual it governs. Nations, communities, families – they all bring government closer to the individual. The individual, as part of a group of like minded people with similar values and morals, is better able to secure his rights against someone who thinks he shouldn’t be that way.

    There’s nothing wrong with voluntary or natural collectives (the family is a natural collective). Its when the state punishes a collective for the sin of 1 that you begin to have problems.

    • #226
  17. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Zafar (View Comment):

    From another angle (The Daily Beast) how conservatives and progressives differ about what causes antisemitism:

    …progressives say nationalist, racist ideology, while conservatives say hate. The difference may seem slight, but in fact, it’s why right and left talk past one another…

    I don’t think that conservatives would refer to “hate” like that. That is such a flat and uncharacteristic way of describing conservative viewpoints. More like: antisemitism, as one example of human ability to dehumanize and otherize, has evolutionary, cultural, circumstantial, and philosophical roots. It’s both simple and complicated.

    The Progressive side of that quote is also thin, although accurately so. It’s all well and good to blame racist ideology, but another part of their ideology is that only white people can be racist. So whiteness causes antisemitism according to progressives.

    • #227
  18. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Stina (View Comment):
    Maybe not for the imaginary skinhead with Swastika tattoos,

    They are not imaginary.

    It is just that their supply far outstrips the demand, hence the many race hoaxes.

    • #228
  19. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Stina (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society

    What I object to is the difference based on group. It should be ok for all or ok for none. Going further, I’d say that that without an overriding identity for all then our project in self government is doomed to truly tribal squabbles and feuds, and on against policies that tear down that common identity while encouraging isolation. So I’m against identitarianism for all of those reasons.

    I agree with your first sentence.

    I reject your final assessment. This country was believed to have what it took to be successful as a federation of many distinct nations. Virginians were Virginians first. It is the attempt to erase those distinctions among the American nations and make us all exactly the same that is one reason we have such a large central state. It was supposed to be a national cooperative to defend our way of life while pursuing our own distinct interests within our own states. But together, we would unite to defend all of our states together – because we are stronger when presenting a united front to an aggressor than we would be separated.

    However, just because we are stronger together when opposing an outside aggressor does not mean we should attempt to be exactly the same across our states.

    And it is interesting that individualists see something wrong with this formation. Its like if we are all unique individuals, the government can’t pick one out or something? But instead, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, further removed from the individual it governs. Nations, communities, families – they all bring government closer to the individual. The individual, as part of a group of like minded people with similar values and morals, is better able to secure his rights against someone who thinks he shouldn’t be that way.

    There’s nothing wrong with voluntary or natural collectives (the family is a natural collective). Its when the state punishes a collective for the sin of 1 that you begin to have problems.

    I dont think we disagree here. At the founding we had differences. However, we also had some important overriding commonalities. Strong Christianity, for one. Mostly English and European culture and all of the commonalities inherent there based on Western Civ.

    • #229
  20. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    we defend Jewish nationalism and turn a blind eye to their ethno chauvinism.

    I think this is true, and I think it’s weird that people dont see it. Then comes the double standards.

    Although, I dont think Jewish is an ethnicity. It sometimes behaves like one, unlike say Buddhist or Lutheran.

    I think that it is weird that we condemn what you call “ethno chauvinism.”  Why can’t people just have their own country, and prefer their own people and culture?

    I wrote this earlier, but I think that it bears repeating.  Israel is for the Jews.  Japan is for the Japanese.  Poland is for the Poles.  Nigeria is for the Nigerians.

    Why can’t we just let people have their own countries, and cultures, and prefer them over others?  

    I think that there is an answer.  In America, we’ve been conditioned to the nondiscrimination principle.  This has occurred, perhaps to a lesser extent and a bit differently, in Europe.  I think that the reasons are different — in the US, the reason is the historic mistreatment of blacks, while in Europe, it is the atrocities of the Nazis and especially the Holocaust.

    There’s an element of self-hatred in this ideology.  It’s almost as if certain societies want to destroy their own culture, and therefore condemn any celebration or support of it.  But it’s only certain societies, and you all know which ones.

    • #230
  21. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Although, I dont think Jewish is an ethnicity.

    Prager explains that they are a religion, an ethnicity, a people, a nation and a culture.

    • #231
  22. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    The Progressive side of that quote is also thin, although accurately so. It’s all well and good to blame racist ideology, but another part of their ideology is that only white people can be racist.

    They actually link racism with ethnic nationalism. You can’t have the second without the first.

    I also think you misunderstand progressives – who might say that it’s the bigotry of the majority, or those with power, that can be implemented as an ism.  In the West that majority is white people, in India it’s Hindus, in Pakistan it’s Muslims. And in each if these countries progressives support non whites, Muslims and Hindus – as relevant.  Because lacking power and minorities.  Focusing on whites is focusing on a culturally specific expression of the issue rather than the issue itself. Imho. 

    • #232
  23. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Zafar (View Comment):
    They actually link racism with ethnic nationalism. You can’t have the second without the first.

    This is in violation of intersectionality.

    According to that theory you can, in fact, have ethnic nationalism without racism. You can even enforce unicultural exclusion and not be a racist.

    • #233
  24. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Zafar (View Comment):
    I also think you misunderstand progressives – who might say that it’s the bigotry of the majority, or those with power, that can be implemented as an ism. In the West that majority is white people, in India it’s Hindus, in Pakistan it’s Muslims. And in each if these countries progressives support non whites, Muslims and Hindus – as relevant. Because lacking power and minorities. Focusing on whites is focusing on a culturally specific expression of the issue rather than the issue itself. Imho. 

    This statement neglects the effects of “colonialism” which supersedes, in this case, all other concerns and still makes it whitey’s fault.

    • #234
  25. V.S. Blackford Inactive
    V.S. Blackford
    @VSBlackford

    TBA (

     

    Speaking of those guys, here is the wiki entry;

    According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, “[a]ll the serious research” confirms that between five and six million Jews died. Early postwar calculations were 4.2 to 4.5 million from Gerald Reitlinger; 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg; and 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. In 1990 Yehuda Bauer and Robert Rozett estimated 5.59–5.86 million, and in 1991 Wolfgang Benz suggested 5.29 to just over 6 million.[ad] The figures include over one million children. Much of the uncertainty stems from the lack of a reliable figure for the number of Jews in Europe in 1939, border changes that make double-counting of victims difficult to avoid, lack of accurate records from the perpetrators, and uncertainty about whether to include post-liberation deaths caused by the persecution.

    So these historians are all a bunch of nazis.

    Timothy Snyder in his book Bloodlands puts the number at 5.7 million (page 407). The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum puts the number at 6 million. What you see in the wikipedia entry is the evolution of the historiography on the subject. The postwar calculations could not fully capture the toll because of the lack of access to mass killing sites in Eastern Europe and archival/census information because of the Cold War. In the post Cold War era that has been a great deal of recent scholarship that more fully captures the extent of the killing. I recommend taking a look at this map created by an organization that finds and documents mass killing sites in Eastern Europe. The research is ongoing. I don’t consider actual scholarly historiographical debate an issue here. I do not think that was what Malkin referred to in her comment.

    Unfortunately I cannot get access in the short term to the source discussing the reasons for the uncertainty, but it is in an Oxford University publication I have used in the past for research on another topic related to the Holocaust.

    I would point out that Holocaust deniers are not concerned with the difference between 5,700,000 and 6,000,000. They like to reduce the the numbers radically. This can be seen in this video clip of Nick Fuentes, who uses the post of a follower to riff on the actual number of Jews killed, comparing the number of Jews killed to baking cookies. In the clip he says maybe 200,000 to 300,000″cookies” could be baked in 5 years. He also likes to use euphemisms. Nick Fuentes was one of the 4 speakers at the conference. 

    • #235
  26. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    The Progressive side of that quote is also thin, although accurately so. It’s all well and good to blame racist ideology, but another part of their ideology is that only white people can be racist.

    I also think you misunderstand progressives – who might say that it’s the bigotry of the majority, or those with power, that can be implemented as an ism. In the West that majority is white people, in India it’s Hindus, in Pakistan it’s Muslims. And in each if these countries progressives support non whites, Muslims and Hindus – as relevant. Because lacking power and minorities. Focusing on whites is focusing on a culturally specific expression of the issue rather than the issue itself. Imho.

    I understand that. I don’t much care about the rest of the world so I was speaking about the US. In the US, only whites can be racist. I understand why they say that, but I don’t think it makes much sense considering the language and practical political policies they support. Tyranny of the majority is different than racism, sexism, blah-blah-ism, etc. They act as if this is only a white phenomenon, as if it can only be a white phenomenon. “They”  being radical identitarians, almost synonymous nowadays with “progressive”.

    • #236
  27. V.S. Blackford Inactive
    V.S. Blackford
    @VSBlackford

    Stina (View Comment):

    The only reason people have any desire to question the magnitude of the Holocaust is because it has been used to justify Jewish Nationalism and the interests of Jews while generally claiming that nationalism and identity/collective interests are evil.

    The reason nationalists grasp at the Jews is because they want the same accordance given to Israel and support for a kind of Jewish cultural isolation and preservation that is actively fought against, specifically for white Americans but really for all other demographics in the west. There’s more cultural isolation allowed among the minorities in our society, but largely conservatives are against that, too… except for where Jews are concerned.

    But the Holocaust is held up as some unique and unparalleled tragedy (even though genocides have happened before). Because of this unparalleled evil specifically targeting Jews (even though 4 million non jews died too), we defend Jewish nationalism and turn a blind eye to their ethno chauvinism. We even promote it in US policy and law (Defense and promotion of Israel over Palestinians, anti-BDS laws).

    So if there is incentive among nationalists to minimize the holocaust, it isn’t to deny Israel or Jews the right to self and cultural preservation, ethno-states, or ethno chauvinism but rather to lay claim to their rights for the same.

    It is possible to note the barbarity of the Holocaust and recognize the barbarity of other genocides. The only group in WWII who got their own death camps were the Jews – this included Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. In the concentration camps, which were terrible for everyone sent there, the Jews were singled out for the worst treatment. One of the reasons there are even Jewish survivors of places like Auschwitz is because the Nazis decided they would work them to death rather than kill them outright because they killed all of the Soviet POWs too quickly for use as laborers (Nikolaus Wachsmann, KL, 295).

    Why on earth does Israel have to play into this supposed new American nationalism? Who cares about what Israel does? Why does it matter? Because at heart this is a white nationalist movement.

     

    • #237
  28. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):
    Why on earth does Israel have to play into this supposed new American nationalism? Who cares about what Israel does? Why does it matter? Because at heart this is a white nationalist movement.

    It matters because it matters to the people we need to convince.

    And the people we are trying to convince have embraced a double standard without even realizing it. They say its evil to promote an identity, but defend a people who promote their identity.

    It is either evil for everyone or it is right for everyone. You can not have it both ways.

    • #238
  29. V.S. Blackford Inactive
    V.S. Blackford
    @VSBlackford

    Stina (View Comment):

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):
    Why on earth does Israel have to play into this supposed new American nationalism? Who cares about what Israel does? Why does it matter? Because at heart this is a white nationalist movement.

    It matters because it matters to the people we need to convince.

    And the people we are trying to convince have embraced a double standard without even realizing it. They say its evil to promote an identity, but defend a people who promote their identity.

    It is either evil for everyone or it is right for everyone. You can not have it both ways.

    It is possible to have an identity without having to denigrate all others. White nationalism privileges being white above all. Having a Jewish identity and wanting good things for your fellows is not the same thing as what white nationalism calls for. I would also point out that Israel, while majority Jewish, also has sizable ethnic and religious minorities that have their own political parties and can practice their faith traditions.

    There is this imagined mythical past when all was White European that white nationalists dream of returning to. It ignores the fact that Africans made up early America, as well as Amerindians. Ben Franklin was worried about German speakers! Once you add in the peoples of the Southwest after the Mexican-American war you get a more diverse country. Once there is immigration from Eastern Europe and Southern Europe you get a more diverse country. Chinese immigration, Japanese immigration, the taking of Puerto Rico and the Philippines in 1898, you get a more diverse country. 

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  30. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    V.S. Blackford (View Comment):
    I would point out that Holocaust deniers are not concerned with the difference between 5,700,000 and 6,000,000. They like to reduce the the numbers radically. This can be seen in this video clip of Nick Fuentes, who uses the post of a follower to riff on the actual number of Jews killed, comparing the number of Jews killed to baking cookies. In the clip he says maybe 200,000 to 300,000″cookies” could be baked in 5 years. He also likes to use euphemisms. Nick Fuentes was one of the 4 speakers at the conference. 

    I watched the linked clip. I didn’t find it to be funny or cute or dissident. Was he intending it to be? What was the point of the bit? Reveling in the mass industrialized dehumanization and murder of people, of Jews? That’s possible; there are people who would revel in that. Is Nick Fuentes one of those people? Or is Nick Fuentes a young guy with no particular connection to historical events (as the young often are) and a thirst for the subversive and independent (as the young often are) and with no risk-regulator (as the young often are)? I would have to listen to more to find out. Is this one of his go-to themes? 

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