Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
Almost, Then No
After watching the vice presidential debate and seeing Governor Mike Pence stand up to Senator Tim Kaine’s abortion sophism, I prepared myself to flip from NeverTrump to Anti-Hillary-Enough-To-Vote-For-Trump. Pence did a serviceable job calling out the inconsistency of Kaine’s position, but Matt Walsh really, really took the wood to the idea that one can be a Christian and support murder of the unborn.
Leave it to modern day Christians to argue that a God who chose to physically exist inside a woman’s womb for nine months “didn’t have anything to say about abortion.” Abortion is perhaps the modern “social issue” about which he had the most to say. God was an unborn child. Period. I shouldn’t need to move from there to quoting Jeremiah and the Book of Psalms. God was an unborn child. Did you get the message, Tim Kaine? It’s not that hard to understand. It’s time for pro-choice Christians to choose between the abortion industry and their faith. Clearly, Jesus did not intend to leave them any room in between.
While you’re at it, consider these harsh words on the subject from Kevin Williamson (a man who lives only by virtue of being born almost immediately before Roe) that conclude:
On the subject of abortion, Tim Kaine is a mess intellectually and a coward morally. That some people find his argument persuasive is only another sign of how attenuated we have become, nationally, in our facility for reasoned argument. The facts of abortion are the facts of abortion, irrespective of what any pope, president, governor, senator, or mere justice of the Supreme Court says.
Being a Catholic is one reason to oppose abortion. Being a human being is another. Tim Kaine, a cheap and shallow sophist, isn’t a particularly inspiring example of either.
I think we have wide latitude for disagreement on a great many issues in this nation save for a couple: The right to life is inviolable, and the right to protect one’s life is as certain and solid. In this nation, we should not sanction murder, ever. But we have. It is this preeminent right which is torn asunder by the practice of abortion. The Left wants to make it about choice, but it is a choice disallowed under all circumstances. Kaine asks, “Why don’t you trust women to make this choice for themselves?” Because, you pompous ass, women are making the decision about the life and death of another human being, not about themselves. Does Kaine trust me to make such a decision about his life?
I wish Pence had said “The child in the womb being a human being is not a matter of religion or of faith but rather a matter and fact of science. Do you even science, bro?” Sadly, he didn’t. He soft-peddled it enough to leave the option of thinking this is a choice about a pregnancy rather than a choice about whether an innocent human being lives or is ripped limb from limb and thrown in the garbage.
Enraged by the exchange — and having banked the fires of my passion high by reading Walsh and Williamson — I was ready to allow this one thing to topple my dislike of Trump just enough to actively support him in order to actively oppose (even ineffectively) the murderous Left who want to kill unborn children (in my opinion, for the sake mere sexual gratification, but that’s another post.) I went to Trump’s official campaign website to read his position on abortion in hopes that, against all sound reasoning, I could throw my support behind him. This is what I saw:
It’s not there. Barely a month out from the election, Trump doesn’t have a published position on life. I cannot support any candidate who cannot (or will not) make this issue a priority. Damn you, Donald J. Trump for being the only person in the race who could not deny Hillary Clinton the presidency, and damn you again for not caring enough about my vote or the lives of the innocent.
Published in General
Sometimes, but have you ever tried not scratching an itch?
Heather Wilhelm did a fine job addressing with this argument over at NRO. The GOP can’t wish away Trump by trying to convince people to vote for Trump because they are somehow not voting for Trump. The GOP primary voters bought him and now the GOP owns him.
Tim Kaine should know better as a Catholic that he cannot sanction abortion. One doesn’t have to be a Catholic to recognize the fact that the only reason to abort a fetus is because it is a child. You can use the term fetus to obfuscate that fact. I know of no ultrasound of a pregnant woman that has revealed a litter of puppies, horse, calf, or anything other than a developing child in the womb. If that were the case you might be able to make a case for abortion.
Quality of life, viable, are rationalizations, subjective rationalizations to try and justify aborting a child. Does a child become an autonomous human being when on Sunday morning they can get the breakfast cereal and pour the milk while you sleep-in?
I cannot prevent someone from obtaining an abortion but I don’t want to pay for it for conscience reasons. My reply to keep your religion out of my uterus is keep my wallet out of your uterus.
This is worth listening to if you have 20 minutes.
As I’ve written here before Doug, Tim Kaine is clueless about his faith. The “Catholic choir-boy” that the NYT and WaPo gush about is nothing more than a typical liberal who went on a mission to Honduras and found Karl Marx instead of Jesus Christ. His bishop needs to publicly reprimand him for all the nonsense he spews in public – not only for the sake of his soul, but for the scandal that it causes to so many ignorant Catholics.
It’s very easy to argue against abortion without theology. I was just struck by the clarity of that Biblical example when debating wayward Christians.
The simplest non-theological argument is to begin with abortion advocates’ admission that they can’t cite the point at which a human being become a person inherently worthy of life (their only logical, if flawed, formula). Without being able to identify that moment, abortion risks killing a person. Taking such a risk to avoid hardship is obviously unethical.
But abortions don’t occur because of logical disagreements. They occur because of fear, selfishness, or (in the case of abortive physicians and politicians like Pelosi and Reid) deliberate evil.
That’s like saying let’s research divorce proceedings while planning the wedding – give the guy a chance – we know what we’ll get with the Clintons back in charge.
No Rubio vote?
You have it wrong, KP. This election is like choosing between a hot and steamy dog turd, or a dried up and crumbly cat turd, on a greasy old Limburger sandwich. For my part, I choose to go hungry.
By the way, will McMullin be on the ballot in this state? I thought he wasn’t?
Nope. I’m done voting for candidates who talk the pro-life talk, but vote to use my tax money to pay for the abortion industry.
Hillary supports, with our dollars, infanticide in the form of ripping babies limb from limb, stabbing them in the upper spinal column with scissors, and throwing them in the trash if they happen to survive a botched attempt on their life.
I’m so horrified that I can’t type any more. Should be enough said.
And the both political parties take my money and give it to Planned Parenthood who does all of that.
I am going to give Tim Kaine the benefit of the doubt by assuming he is lying about his abortion position. I suspect that, deep down, he is like many Americans, myself included, who believe that (a) terminating a pregnancy one day after conception is not murder, and (b) terminating a pregnancy one day before full-term delivery is murder.
The problem is that between (a) and (b) there exists a time period of nine months and a progression of development from what some call “a clump of cells” to a human being capable of living outside the womb. Where does one draw the line?
I personally would like to see abortion available only within a very, very short timeframe after conception, because – as I said – I do not believe that very early abortion constitutes murder. I’m certain that very late-term abortion does qualify as such.
I respect the views of those who believe that life begins at conception. That is an entirely defensible position, unlike the position of those who favor abortion without restrictions. Similarly indefensible is the position that abortion is murder but should be legal in cases of rape or incest.
It might be useful to find out what Trump actually said:
Donald Trump
on Google
“The primary responsibility of the federal government is to protect the rights of its citizens. Life is the most fundamental right. The federal government should not diminish this right by denying its’ protection. I am opposed to abortion except for rape, incest and life of the mother. I oppose the use of government funds to pay for abortions.”
Sep 16, 2016
“I’ve become pro-life,” Trump continued, “and the reason is, I’ve seen — in my case, one specific situation — but numerous situations that have made me to go that way.”
Donald Trump Promises To Appoint Anti‑Abortion Justices To Supreme Courtourt
The Huffington Post – May 11, 2016
Look, Planned Parenthood has to stop with the abortions,” he told host Chuck Todd on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”
Trump not sure about past donations to Planned Parenthood
The Hill – Aug 16, 2015
Trump, explaining why he was inspired to change his position on abortion, spoke of watching an unnamed friend decide against ending a pregnancy: “It was going to be aborted and that child today is a total superstar. It is a great, great child.”
The 14 Wildest Moments From the First Republican Debate
Vanity Fair Aug 6, 2015
Sixteen years later during the Fox News debate on Aug. 6, he said, “I am pro-life …. I hate the concept of abortion. And then since then, I’ve very much evolved. I am very, very proud to say that I am pro-life.”
Trump has record of flip‑flops – though it hasn’t stopped rise in polls
Fox News August 28, 2015
Trump also wrote: “Public funding of abortion providers is an insult to people of conscience at the least and an affront to good governance at best.”
Ted Cruz ad, assailed by Trump, leaves out Trump’s declared shift on abortion
PolitiFact.com – Feb 17, 2016
I don’t believe anything Donald Trump has to say on much of anything particularly on anything having to do with social policy especially given his past clear support of abortion and that incoherent word salad of an explanation of why he suddenly changed his position right before running for president.
He’s not pro-life, but he knows he has to sound like he’s pro-life and that’s why I suspect he said he thought women should be punished for having abortions. I think he thought that was the proper thing to say to make people think he was pro-life and then backed off once he realized it wasn’t.
Another clue is telling me that he thinks Planned Parenthood does good work, but for abortions. The whole point of Planned Parenthood is abortion. So, no, I don’t believe a singular thing he says on being pro-life anymore than I believe him on guns or anything else.
I wonder how I would feel about the election if I thought Trump were credible or at least I had a suspicion of what he really thought.
Very good question. I don’t think it would take much credibility to sway many, but the amount must be greater than zero.
I don’t think he thinks about much of anything other than how to satisfy his myriad of appetites.
Is this all a lie then: http://www.lifenews.com/2016/03/01/the-16-times-marco-rubio-voted-to-stop-abortion-and-defund-planned-parenthood/
Or this: http://www.politico.com/blogs/south-carolina-primary-2016-live-updates-and-results/2016/02/ted-cruz-marco-rubio-planned-parenthood-219229
Maybe Trump is right about Lyin’ Ted?
I’m just going by the recent budget agreement that funded Planned Parenthood as part of the compromise. It turns out that was vote that pushed me off the fence for voting for Rubio and my local congress person. The fact that they both have endorsed Trump, no matter how tepidly, had me moving in the direction of not voting for them, but once you take my money from me under threat of force and give it to the abortion industry, you can’t reasonably expect me to vote for you.
We all have our own systems for guessing. I tend to follow the one that says that positions he has held consistently for the longest time are more likely to be real than more recently adopted positions. But it’s still only probabilities.
You cannot reasonably think that his compromising on the budget after voting 16 times to defund planned parenthood and/or reduce funding for abortions means that he is taking money from you under threat of force. I mean, really, this kind of attitude is exactly why Trump is currently the nominee.
That’s how the budget works. Taxes are leveed and if you don’t pay, it’s the power of the state coming after you up to and including the use of force depending on long you resist.
The fact that someone didn’t stab me in the back when given the opportunity sixteen previous times doesn’t change my opinion of that person when he jams the dagger into me on his seventeenth opportunity.
Gee, Publius, that is sort of dense.The GOP doesn’t have the votes to get everything that conservatives want; our guys are not doing all that badly considering how the Democrats vote for infanticide at every opportunity. You are setting unrealistic expectations. Half our guys come from districts where nearly half the voters have drunk the Planned Parenthood koolaid that Leftist mass media serves about how any restrictions on abortion amount to onerous restrictions on womens’ healthcare.This has been a very long fight since Roe v. W.; and a lot of progress has been made. We don’t need a major victory, we just need to keep winning small battles. The energy is all going our way on this one, though way more slowly than we want.
But Hillary would be a reversal.
I am happy to see lots of progress in little ways in the red states. We are winning the war of ideas, little by little, because the science keeps giving us better and better pictures of the tiniest babies. There are new restrictions on abortion every year, and every year more of our voters get to see just what a horror the abortion industry is.
We won’t get a big win, but we don’t have to give up and let Hillary reverse all our gains.
Support Life; vote for Trump.
Donald Trump writes a letter to CatholicVote President Brian Burch: “As President, I promise that I will protect the rights of Catholics to live their faith, to serve their communities, and to act on their beliefs without fear.” PDF original here.
CatholicVote President Brian Burch interviewed on EWTN news:
In contrast to comment #87, Planned Parenthood is putting together a $30M army to ensure the Culture of Death thrives under it’s goddess, Hillary Clinton. These people are evil.
The cold hard fact of the matter is that the GOP isn’t a pro-life party. This most recent budget “compromise” where they collectively decided to fund the abortion industry and specifically the very provider of abortions that was killing infants and selling their parts was the last straw for me.
I’m not voting for any candidate who uses my money to fund Planned Parenthood no matter what excuses they make to justify the unjustifiable. It’s bad enough they’re forcing me to contribute my money to them. They sure as heck aren’t going to get my vote after doing that.
It’s long past time for the GOP to go away and be replaced by something else.
I believe that the majority of the readers of this conversation would be persuaded (if not already) by this comment (and several others on the thread) that if Life is your primary issue in this POTUS election, vote Trump.
And the title would change to … Almost, Then No, Then Yes.