Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
What About the Kurds?
So Turkey is bombing the Kurds in Syria. The Kurds in northern Iraq are (were?) very friendly to the U.S. Of course most of our allies fight for their own reasons and values and not as a favor to us. Same with the Syrian Kurds. Still, this looks like another case of our having a “that was then, this is now” attitude toward those we ‘befriend” in tough times. Memories of the fall of Saigon recur.
It is not our job to police the world or right every wrong. But what sort of deal have we made with Turkey and why? What is worth risking our credibility with those we will want to enlist for aid in the future?
Or is this anxiety just further proof that my neo-con impulses are madness, that Lindsay Graham knows nothing of geopolitics, that Bill Kristol still has no reason to mistrust Trump so much, and that I should just relax and be glad that “Hilary is not President” while the Donald plays 3d chess?
(If I had to say, I guess I would go with those who said more than a year ago that there are no good options in Syria, that we had been outfoxed by the Russians, etc. and that this is just the horrible, horrible price some must pay for Great Power mistakes.)
What say ye, Ricochetti?
Published in Foreign Policy
Are you under the assumption that flyover country produces nothing?
I am not. Hence the comment.
Zafar (View Comment):
They’re your basket of deplorables.
Or maybe flyover country?
Good point @zafar. They are human beings, like all of us. Supporting and cherishing that which is close to us… our family, our friends, our country… does not mean we must necessarily demean that which is not. In a heated discussion, we sometimes go a bit too far.
The fact remains, our goals no longer co-mingle with those of the Kurds. By staying as the guards of both the Turkey/Kurdish feud, as well as the actual guards of the ISIS prisoners, we have no end game. This is what Trump and most Americans hate the most. We will be entangled in this area forever. This will be a constant drain on our resources. We may as well make it a line item in our budget, like social security. Not to mention the ongoing drips and drabs of American blood. Wherever our soldiers are in the Middle East, thay are targets.
The problem I see here is a perceived difference of opinion being expressed by one party addressing the individuals being referenced and the other party trying to address the group or groups that are involved in attempting to govern or rule the referenced individuals. I think both views can be valid when the context is provided. My opinion is that the goodness to be found within the imperfect individuals, as we all are, in the ME is stifled by the power elements in governing and dictating moral, religious, and economic behaviors allowed and not allowed. And those allowed happen to be wrong and fail to advance civil order and prosperity.
There you go bringing facts into a feelings fest!
No, just a competing civilization that can’t stand the fact that it lost to the West.
I was listening to Breitbart News on Sirius XM yesterday and their Global reporter was pretty compelling that Congress has to start voting on war. No more undeclared wars. Supposedly using our military to protect the Kurds is actually illegal. There is a special separate law involved, not specifically declaring war. I’m not going to get into a big argument about this because I know absolutely jack about it.
Interesting. I guess NATO has no obligation to help Turkey attack Syria. Glad for that. Wonder what then happens if Turkey gets the worst of it.
The other thing I heard was Erdogan lied to Trump about the extent of his intentions. The PKK causes Turkey a bunch of problems.
The AUMF has been the justification for an awful lot of military actions over the last decade. Congress should be voting on these things, but voting is hard and has consequences. Wouldn’t it just be easier to abdicate all responsibility to the Executive branch and avoid having to explain your vote to the public?
Ours won’t be the first republic to fall thanks to legislative constituent services that interfere with actual legislative responsibilities.
Of course, then you should be made to explain to the public why you abdicated all responsibility to the executive branch. But who is going to ask them that?
On the same page here!
Well we can’t have any of that. The public is full of dirty peasants who don’t have good table manners and didn’t go to the right schools. We don’t need to answer their questions.
I know people have mixed feelings about Ben Sasse, but this has been a issue of his for a while now. He’s constantly complaining about how Congress has given away its power and how absurd it is that they don’t seem to want it back. He used the Kavanaugh hearings—before the attempted hit, back when it was just a normal version of a partisan confirmation—to take shots at his colleagues for their laziness and general apathy towards Executive powers becoming the dominant force. And what happened? Nobody cared. Congress gave up and the people have let them. It’s depressing now that I say it out loud.
Government Is How We Steal From Each Other™
It’s a racket coming and going. Everyone tries to just get past the next election. All of them.
The Republicans that hate Trump have this idealized notion of what the party is really like or what it ought to be. Ben Sasse is an example. The party isn’t like that. There is only one Rep. Thomas Massie and he’s against war.
I keep telling people to do this. Watch the 90 minute interview of David Stockman on real vision. It’s behind a firewall but they will give you a pass.
Exactly so. The Congress, on a bipartisan and bicameral basis, has been entirely negligent for decades. On the other hand, when they have dipped an oar in the water, we got things like the prohibition against resisting the communist take over of Central America.
The NATO charter doesn’t require that NATO support Turkey if it begins to go south on them.
Ben Sasse … he’s constantly complaining.
You’re getting warmer.
I suppose the solution is to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away.
Listen to not the last interview of Ben
Sasse, but the one prior on Jonah Goldberg’s podcast. Jonah asked him a bunch of questions at the end and he didn’t field them very well. In my opinion he mostly just wants people to behave better, suck it up, and form “little platoons”. I don’t think he has today’s situation analyzed very well.
Now all of the Never Trumper’s are mad at him because he isn’t saying anything about Trump so he can get reelected.
He doesn’t. He’s actually gotten it completely wrong. He still believes there’s a middle. There isn’t. The gyre has widened substantially. On that issue—we’ll call it the general temperature of the country—he has missed the story entirely. But that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about Congress needing to take back their role in lawmaking. That’s the only issue I was stressing with regard to him.
Fair enough.
I’m really obsessed with the incentives in this country and the negative structural forces people have to respond to. The GOP never got on top of this. That’s the problem.
So what do we do here, exactly? For all the “Protect the Kurds” people.
What do you think America should do? Go to war with an ally to protect a terrorist group? Because, no matter what you want to say about Trump, that is what you are calling for.
I want US troops to blow up their own base while retreating from potential attacks coming from our NATO ally. I’d also like it if we could somehow secure the release of hundreds of ISIS fighters. Is there any chance I could get that? Because that’s my ideal outcome.
Also, if we could arrange to have one of the most respected generals in recent memory mocked in public by his former boss that would be great. Let’s see if we can get any of this done by the end of the week.
That is very cute, Mr. Yuppie. Unfortunately, we are discussing a very difficult and important situation. Your comment does nothing to add light to that situation. I have read and listened to numerous “experts” and regular folks on this issue. This is what I’ve come to so far:
The YPG/PKK Kurds, which are not the same as the Iraqi Kurds, have been labeled a terrorist organization by our country before Trump. They are Marxists. They do set off bombs in Turkey. They want to set up an independent country inside of Turkey and along the border between northern Syria and Turkey. Turkey has been wanting to invade this area for a while. There is massive support for this action inside of Turkey, even though the current leader, Erdogan, is not so popular. As a matter of fact, Erdogan has turned Turkey from a secular Muslim country under Ataturk, to an islamist leaning country that has denied US troop movement through its land at the start of the Iraq war, supported ISIS, turned against a former ally in Israel, and supports the Muslim Brotherhood. There is not a lot good to be said about either the Turks or these Kurds. Turkey is a NATO and signed real treaty, ally, that has turned away in recent years. These Kurds are new “partners”, but not allies in any official way. They helped us get rid of ISIS, we helped them with cash and arms. That is pretty much it. Our allies in Europe, where most of these imprisoned ISIS people are from, will do nothing to help maintain their imprisonment. If we stayed, we would be responsible financially, if not physically, forever. No end game in sight. Turkey will not have Erdogan permanently. They are a very large and stable country in a critical geopolitical position. We have air and other military bases in Turkey. This entire situation sucks, to be crude. We should align ourselves against a formidable, well established, and important country while supporting a questionable group of skilled fighters who normally align with Iran and Assad’s Syria. It almost seems silly if it weren’t so serious.
Man, you must be pretty upset today then. I mean, the administration just negotiated a 120hr cease-fire so that those Marxist terrorists could retreat safely. That’s got to bother you. I mean, why would Trump allow a free pass to a group of Marxist terrorists like that? Especially ones who are a danger to our ally? I imagine you’ll have some strong words of condemnation for this action. Because of course you don’t believe in providing safe cover for terrorists, right?
YPG and PKK are two different groups. Today’s cease fire seems to specifically related to allowing the YPG to withdraw safely. The PKK are the commies who we have had designated as a terrorist group for a long time.
I’ll wait for a serious response.