Reactions to the London Attack, Helpful and Unhelpful

 

Jon, I was prompted to write this when I saw your post this morning.

I spent the day yesterday with two friends who were visiting from London. They live quite close to London Bridge. One used to be a Ricochet member. Both were, until recently, solid Atlanticists — and still are — but they’re both offended beyond words by the tone of hostility and contempt for Britain that’s oozing, non-stop, out of the US these days, starting with the President, and echoed by many Americans on social media. I don’t blame them for being offended.

“Instructing Londoners to run, hide, and tell,” Jon writes, “is a dramatic departure from the can-do, stiff-upper-lip, globe-striding empire of a century ago.”

Actually, it’s not.

This guidance has been in place since 2014. It’s not a dramatic departure from anything, although it is a response to studying hundreds of similar situations around the world, including many in the United States. You’ll note that Britons are being told, explicitly, not to surrender or negotiate. The reason they’re emphasizing the seemingly obvious — run — is that we now, unfortunately, have a lot of evidence about how civilians (everywhere) behave during terrorist attacks and other emergencies. Some small percentage of them do behave as we all like to fantasize we would: They become superheroes who defeat the terrorists using any implement available. Unfortunately, in reality, many people don’t do that. They freeze. 

“Freezing” seems to be something like a biologic default. It’s a cross-cultural reaction to fear. So people do in fact need to be told, specifically, not to obey that instinct. They need to be warned that their first response may be to deny what’s happening, or be confused by it, and freeze. They need to hear (often, repetitively) that this is not the reaction most likely to result in their survival. 

This is why we get a lot of seemingly-obvious warnings about what to do and not do in other kinds of emergencies — e.g., “If you need to evacuate this plane, do not stop to get your luggage.” The reason we hear that all the time isn’t because the airline officials condescendingly suspect we might be idiots. It’s because they know we are. There’s evidence, and a lot of it, that a significant number of people will try to get their luggage, even though every second matters when you’re trying to evacuate a smoke-filled plane, and even though people who try to get their luggage put everyone behind them in mortal danger. And yes, this happens in the US as well as the UK. An NTSB study found that 50 percent — yes, 50 percent — of the passengers in emergency evacuations tried to take their bags. Now, why would they do such a stupid thing? Because most people have no experience of situations like this, and most people don’t respond heroically — or rationally — to them, unless they’ve had a lot of training. No matter what you think you would do, the reality is that in emergencies, many people do dumb things, and unless you’ve been in the situation yourself, you don’t know for sure you wouldn’t be one of them.

“Run, Hide, Fight” is standard protocol for active-shooter situations in the US, too. Are Americans wimps because we, too, need to be told to run and hide? Ah, but you say, part of the advice we get is to fight. Well, no one is telling the British not to fight: And indeed, they fought — they fought back with everything they had on hand: chairs, pint glasses, bottles, discarded bicycle parts. They’ve emphasized “Tell” over “Fight” because that actually makes a lot of sense if you’re living a country where the cops are armed and the terrorists aren’t, and it makes even more sense if the cops are able to get there and kill all of the terrorists within eight minutes. That is, by the way, an impressive achievement, and the appropriate reaction from allies to that news is, “Well done,” not “You remind us of Neville Chamberlain.”

Larry Barton, an American researcher at the University of Central Florida, is the highest-rated instructor at the FBI Academy and US Marshals Service. His research supports both the “run” advice and the giving of the advice. He analyzed 61 deadly assaults in public places from 2006 to 2016 — mostly in the United States. Among those who survived, 73 percent did so by running. Those who ran wound up with no no injuries or only moderate injuries, e.g., a sprained ankle. Of those who survived by hiding — 20 percent — a third were more seriously injured. “Running” is generally the best strategy. It is not always and everywhere the best strategy; there is no such thing as a universally successful solution. But it’s statistically likely to be the best strategy. A highly pro-Second Amendment group, The Truth About Guns, ran simulations of the Charlie Hebdo attack, for example, in which one or more of the civilians were armed. The civilians “died” in every scenario except immediate flight from the scene. So overall, based on evidence, the responsible advice to give the public — whether it’s armed or not — is “run.” 

When Americans respond to an event like this by insinuating that the victims of the attack are wimps, or that they would have performed better under the same circumstances, it — unsurprisingly — offends the victims. It offends them terribly, in fact. And pointlessly. As one of the friends who was visiting me yesterday wrote on my Facebook page (in response to an offensive comment to this effect):

Before you sneer at us, may I remind you that the UK has the longest continuous experience of terrorism on its soil of any western country, and the greatest expertise in stopping it. Yes, we have had far too many terrorist incidents, but they are a drop in the ocean compared with the myriad plots that have been foiled. I think it’s fair to say the 9/11 plot would probably have been detected here. A little respect for us might be in order, too.

I agree. A lot more respect might be in order.

Many Americans believe the British were offended that Obama moved a bust of Churchill. Obama denied that it had been moved. Whether or not it was moved, I’ve never spoken personally to anyone in Britain who was offended by this story. Many have never even heard it. But everyone I know in Britain — and remember, I lived there for seven years, so I do know many people there, and I stay in contact with quite a few of them — is wildly offended by this kind of sneering. It causes real harm to our relationship with the people of Britain. What we say, in fact, on social media and other public fora, causes more offense than anything our politicians say: A politician’s comments can be dismissed, by people with a generous nature, as unrepresentative of the American character. But when ordinary Americans use social media to sneer at our allies, it really leaves a bad taste — and let’s not pretend we would not feel precisely the same way were the situation reversed. We would.

More than 220,000 British personnel have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to Ministry of Defence figures, 456 Britons have died in Afghanistan. More than 7,300 have been treated for battlefield injuries, non-combat wounds, or disease related to their service. In Iraq, 179 British service personnel were killed. Some 5,800 were treated in field hospitals. This is a heavy toll. Britain wasn’t attacked on September 11. We were. They are in Afghanistan because we asked them to be. They entered war in Iraq because we asked them to. They did so despite believing it would increase the risk of terrorism on British soil. They did it because they are our allies.

When in response they hear sneering contempt from Americans to the effect that they’re sheeplike, cowardly wusses reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain — illustrated by wartime enlistment posters, clearly meant to suggest that Britons no longer enlist — they respond exactly as Americans would were the situation reversed. They did enlist, and do enlist, and they have been fighting, by our side, since September 11. Here are photographs of British men (and a woman) who died in 2010 in Afghanistan. In this link, you can see more photos of the British men and women who’ve died in every year of that war since it began. 

So why would an American, in the wake of an attack on British soil, taunt the British for failing to enlist? Every one of the men above died because they took seriously the promise that an attack on any one of us would be an attack on all of us. Is taunting the British for being “sheeplike” and unwilling to enlist in the fight the right way to show our respect to their families?

Jon posted a photo of the famous “Keep calm and carry on” poster, intimating that the Britain of calm, dignity, and resilience is dead, replaced by a bunch of cowering ninnies. As it happens, that poster — precisely — has been widely circulating on British Twitter in the wake of the attack. But I suspect that if it were a new poster, Americans would be mocking the British for urging calm and normalcy. Our president would be Tweeting, ‘At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and the British are saying, “Keep calm and carry on!”‘ 

President Trump’s tweets caused grave offense. You may think the offense misplaced, but I can promise you they did cause offense, and I don’t find that offense at all hard to understand. What on earth would possess him to use an occasion like this to criticize the Mayor of London? Jennifer Rubin’s description of this is accurate:

After receiving blowback for that obnoxious missive, he tweeted out, “Whatever the United States can do to help out in London and the U. K., we will be there – WE ARE WITH YOU. GOD BLESS!” But then he decided to slam the mayor of the city attacked, who had calmly warned his fellow Londoners: “Londoners will see an increased police presence today and over the course of the next few days. There’s no reason to be alarmed.” Trump took the second part out of context and responded viciously, “At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and Mayor of London says there is ‘no reason to be alarmed!’” (The mayor, of course, was telling them not to be alarmed by the heightened police presence.) Trump was not done, however, inanely tweeting, “Do you notice we are not having a gun debate right now? That’s because they used knives and a truck!”

The offense caused by this kind of boorishness has real consequences — for us. It’s insane, right before a British general election, to hand ammunition to a politician like Jeremy Corbyn. But that’s exactly what this kind of behavior from Americans does. It puts defenders of the Anglo-American alliance in a terrible position. And this time, the people who are offended aren’t the usual suspects — they’re not British leftists who have always hated Americans and always will. We’re offending people who have always considered Americans their closest allies. And it isn’t because they’re delicate snowflakes, either. It’s because we’re being offensive. The tone of contempt from Americans, above all, is one no amount of rational argument can counter. If American voters didn’t care for being called “deplorable,” how do you imagine British voters feel about being called cowardly, sheeplike, and a disgrace to their heritage?

The UK has committed 1,250 military personnel to the fight against ISIS. Apart from us, the Royal Air Force has conducted more airstrikes in Iraq and Syria than any other Coalition country. It provides intelligence and surveillance to Iraqi Security Forces. It’s trained 39,000 Iraqi soldiers in engineering, medical skills, and infantry. In Syria, UK armed forces are training Syrian opposition groups in infantry, emergency medicine, and explosive disposal. How does undermining this alliance help us?

Why would we mock the British in the wake of a terrorist attack that killed seven innocent people on their soil? We know what it means to be the victims of terrorism. Why would we spit on our friends? What do we get out of it?

My answer: We get nothing out of it. So I suggest we not do it. It’s not in our interests to harm the friendship between the United States and Britain. And more importantly, it’s just not decent.

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  1. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Now if we expect Europeans to listen to us about their violence problem we should also be willing to listen to them if they point out our problems with a city like Chicago.

    We have been listening to Europeans criticize our gun culture for many decades :) Their solution to everything, including terrorism, it seems, is to surrender all weapons, not just guns, but all weapons, to the government. It doesn’t seem to be working for them. Is it rude to point that out?

    I don’t know what the situation is exactly in Chicago, but a recent round up of heroin dealers in Massachusetts found that at least half of them were here illegally. One way to deal with gang violence is to deport criminals who are here illegally.

    • #211
  2. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    After my husband was killed, I received word from various area churches and at least one synagogue that I, and my family, was being prayed for. It was very touching and encouraging.

    Most people who disdain the prayers of others don’t understand what prayer is and does. I don’t expect that “pray for the nice widow” means the nice widow will get her husband back. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be how this works.

    What it does mean is that a whole bunch of total strangers stopped what they were doing—took time out of their lives, a small but not meaningless sacrifice — in order to deliberately and sympathetically turn their attention to the plight of a family they had never met. That’s not nothing. Moreover, those churches also “did something” for me. They brought food. They offered to house visiting relatives. People who pray are, in my experience, terrific providers of practical assistance: food, money, phone calls. If I may say so, the prayers tend to be a lot more useful than the non-prayers, in fact. Maybe it’s because, as I find that when I pause and pray, the moment of focus lets them see what else, in addition to prayers, they have to offer.

    Sometimes, maybe most of the time, there is nothing we can do, and prayer is all we’ve got. Okay. But I’m not sure the world would be a better place were it one in which kids are blown up and those who can’t actually bring casseroles just shrug and move on.

    The only thing I’ll say to this is that the doing is infinitely more important and impressive than the praying.

    • #212
  3. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Now if we expect Europeans to listen to us about their violence problem we should also be willing to listen to them if they point out our problems with a city like Chicago.

    We have been listening to Europeans criticize our gun culture for many decades ? Their solution to everything, including terrorism, it seems, is to surrender all weapons, not just guns, but all weapons, to the government. It doesn’t seem to be working for them. Is it rude to point that out?

    I don’t know what the situation is exactly in Chicago, but a recent round up of heroin dealers in Massachusetts found that at least half of them were here illegally. One way to deal with gang violence is to deport criminals who are here illegally.

    Actually likely worse, if I recall. Those numbers are what was admitted to. My guess is that some-to-all of those claiming to be Puerto Rican will turn out to be Dominican illegals, etc.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/dominican-national-pleads-guilty-trafficking-identities-puerto-rican-us-citizens

     

    • #213
  4. Casey Inactive
    Casey
    @Casey

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    The only thing I’ll say to this is that the doing is infinitely more important and impressive than the praying.

    Actually, and I know you don’t yet understand, it’s not.

    • #214
  5. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Now if we expect Europeans to listen to us about their violence problem we should also be willing to listen to them if they point out our problems with a city like Chicago.

    We have been listening to Europeans criticize our gun culture for many decades ? Their solution to everything, including terrorism, it seems, is to surrender all weapons, not just guns, but all weapons, to the government. It doesn’t seem to be working for them. Is it rude to point that out?

    It’s not rude to point out anything if done with an intellectual rational argument. Unfortunately there are two people on this planet that should get off Twitter, Pope Francis and President Trump. I’m not unhappy that President Trump won the election, but Twitter like alcohol can bring out some character traits that are best left hidden. In President Trump’s case it brings out the rude, obnoxious, and boorish characteristics of the hardened New Yorker, and that’s what people hear. Any valid message he might have is lost in the delivery.

     

    • #215
  6. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):
    I know—and that’s interesting to me. Why not? Again, I’m not claiming that Americans are racists just itching to scapegoat, but wouldn’t one expect there to be more aggression directed at people who resemble those who present themselves very loudly and credibly as a threat? The guy waving the ISIS flag in a demonstration, for example—why wouldn’t that provoke a fight? Doesn’t it seem odd that it didn’t?

    “Resemble” – No. This is falling for the leftist caricature. People do want to attack the people who actually organized the terror attack and supported it. People believed W was doing what could be done, or at least as close as we could expect.

    The scenario you give in this paragraph is not just a resemblance. Someone waving an ISIS flag is effectively declaring war on the U.S.A. and should be shut down by whatever means necessary.

    • #216
  7. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):
    RUN/HIDE/TELL might well be the best advice for most people under most circumstances.

    The negative reaction comes from not even mentioning fighting back.

    This was always the advice authorities want to give. That’s why 3 airplanes hit their targets in 9/11. The fourth was able to see the old advice doesn’t work.

    Not everyone should fight rather than flee, and not in every situation. A judgement call needs to be made. You have to consider it an option before you make that judgement call.

    The message didn’t draw criticism by itself, either. The idea of only a special few police officers having firearms contributes to the response.

    • #217
  8. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    It’s not rude to point out anything if done with an intellectual rational argument. Unfortunately there are two people on this planet that should get off Twitter, Pope Francis and President Trump. I’m not unhappy that President Trump won the election, but Twitter like alcohol can bring out some character traits that are best left hidden. In President Trump’s case it brings out the rude, obnoxious, and boorish characteristics of the hardened New Yorker, and that’s what people hear. Any valid message he might have is lost in the delivery.

    President Trump will be accused of being obnoxious no matter how he communicates; from what I can tell, many Europeans and liberals in general accuse anyone they disagree with of being rude and obnoxious, so I wouldn’t worry much about that accusation. I am not sure it is possible to have an intellectual rational argument with people who want to deem opinions that they disagree with as hate speech; when such people accuse me or anyone else of being rude, obnoxious or boorish, I tune them out.

    I don’t pay attention to Trump’s tweets; the only one I am aware of in relation to this most recent attack involved Trump re iterating that we need a travel ban. His detractors accused him of being rude and obnoxious; they didn’t try engage in a rational intellectual argument about the merits of a travel ban, they just started hurling insults.

    • #218
  9. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):
    [self-redacted]

    That’s funny :-)

    • #219
  10. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Mike LaRoche (View Comment):
    Have you driven a Ford (over someone) lately?

    Wow! Funny but then not so much….

    • #220
  11. Kate Braestrup Member
    Kate Braestrup
    @GrannyDude

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    After my husband was killed, I received word from various area churches and at least one synagogue that I, and my family, was being prayed for. It was very touching and encouraging.

    Most people who disdain the prayers of others don’t understand what prayer is and does. I don’t expect that “pray for the nice widow” means the nice widow will get her husband back. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be how this works.

    What it does mean is that a whole bunch of total strangers stopped what they were doing—took time out of their lives, a small but not meaningless sacrifice — in order to deliberately and sympathetically turn their attention to the plight of a family they had never met. That’s not nothing. Moreover, those churches also “did something” for me. They brought food. They offered to house visiting relatives. People who pray are, in my experience, terrific providers of practical assistance: food, money, phone calls. If I may say so, the prayers tend to be a lot more useful than the non-prayers, in fact. Maybe it’s because, as I find that when I pause and pray, the moment of focus lets them see what else, in addition to prayers, they have to offer.

    Sometimes, maybe most of the time, there is nothing we can do, and prayer is all we’ve got. Okay. But I’m not sure the world would be a better place were it one in which kids are blown up and those who can’t actually bring casseroles just shrug and move on.

    The only thing I’ll say to this is that the doing is infinitely more important and impressive than the praying.

    A tree is known by its fruit, eh? I agree. But I think we also have a tendency to see the fruit and forget the tree. That is, we see “oh, hey, people bringing casseroles” and forget that there’s a community, a tradition, a deliberate practice behind these acts of kindness and, very often, a sort of infrastructure that permits the acts of individuals to add up to more than the sum of their parts.

    I’m a practical, concrete sort of person, so it is with many, many concrete examples in mind when I say that if you want some act of kindness accomplished, ask your local church, preferably one that does a whole lot of praying.

    This shouldn’t surprise us. Prayer is about mindfulness, about paying attention, about consciousness and empathy. Communities of prayer—churches—tend to have resources, if only in the form of a lot of retired women who are awesome at organizing community caregiving.

    And when someone is praying, they aren’t (pace Claire’s OP) criticizing.

    • #221
  12. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    It’s not rude to point out anything if done with an intellectual rational argument. Unfortunately there are two people on this planet that should get off Twitter, Pope Francis and President Trump. I’m not unhappy that President Trump won the election, but Twitter like alcohol can bring out some character traits that are best left hidden. In President Trump’s case it brings out the rude, obnoxious, and boorish characteristics of the hardened New Yorker, and that’s what people hear. Any valid message he might have is lost in the delivery.

    President Trump will be accused of being obnoxious no matter how he communicates; from what I can tell, many Europeans and liberals in general accuse anyone they disagree with of being rude and obnoxious, so I wouldn’t worry much about that accusation. I am not sure it is possible to have an intellectual rational argument with people who want to deem opinions that they disagree with as hate speech; when such people accuse me or anyone else of being rude, obnoxious or boorish, I tune them out.

    I don’t pay attention to Trump’s tweets; the only one I am aware of in relation to this most recent attack involved Trump re iterating that we need a travel ban. His detractors accused him of being rude and obnoxious; they didn’t try engage in a rational intellectual argument about the merits of a travel ban, they just started hurling insults.

    Take it from me, I lived in NYC for awhile he is rude and obnoxious. Like you I don’t care what people think in the sense that I have no control over what a person thinks. Rude and obnoxious is a trait that is universal, it is no respecter of national boundaries, or political persuasions. Donald Trump is like an alcoholic, a simple statement offering his condolences to the British people, and then he had to criticize the Mayor of London. Like the alcoholic who cannot stop at one drink he has to have just one more Tweet and then another, and another.

     

    • #222
  13. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Donald Trump is like an alcoholic, a simple statement offering his condolences to the British people, and then he had to criticize the Mayor of London.

    The same Mayor of London who has said in the past that terrorism is just a natural part of living in a big city, and we need to get used to it. If the people of London look at Trump, and then look at their mayor, and they think Trump is the bigger problem, that tells us a great deal about how Great Britain came to be what it now is. They value style over substance; let’s not make the same mistake here.

    • #223
  14. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):
    The other—IMHO more likely—is that there will be a serious backlash. Nutcases will be elected, genuine hate-crimes with real violence against anyone who appears to be Muslim will erupt and the British public (still 95% non-Muslim) will respond with lethal apathy because they have not been given a positive, reasonable way to defend not just themselves but their culture.

    They’ve been predicting that here ever since 9/11 and it didn’t happen.

    I know—and that’s interesting to me. Why not? Again, I’m not claiming that Americans are racists just itching to scapegoat, but wouldn’t one expect there to be more aggression directed at people who resemble those who present themselves very loudly and credibly as a threat? The guy waving the ISIS flag in a demonstration, for example—why wouldn’t that provoke a fight? Doesn’t it seem odd that it didn’t?

    Anyway, I want to repeat something I said further back in this thread, because I think there are two (at least) issues being conflated into one. The first is: “Presented with a knife-weilding attacker of whatever ideological persuasion, what is the best thing for me to do to prevent myself and/or my companions from being stabbed?” RUN/HIDE/TELL might well be the best advice for most people under most circumstances.

    But the other question is: how can terrorism of this kind be defeated?

    A man who RUNS/HIDES/TELLS has a better chance of survival, if we are to believe Claire’s analysis (which seems sound); a man who picks up a broken bottle and counter-attacks might be contributing in his small way to the defeat of a murderous ideological foe.

    Should the man see himself as, in effect, a crime victim with no responsibility for crime as a general problem?

    Or should he see himself as a warrior and defender?

    Not rhetorical questions—really asking.

    True story: Not much happens at a local boring town meeting, but one year a disgruntled (mentally challenged) citizen got up to speak (unannounced) and pointed a gun! Not much choice but to freeze or get under the chair. But an old lady out in the hall snuck up on him and whacked the hell out of him with her purse and he was apprehended. No one really knows how they would react unless they were in a situation, and courage can be found in the most unlikely places.

    • #224
  15. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I liked your cab story, but that was not want I was on about. I was eating a meal, with my wife, and had worked to use my phrasebook to order. The Waiter spoke English, discovered we were American and told us not to tip. And then went on to explain why tipping is a barbaric custom. I don’t think this is being quick to look for it.

    He was a very silly waiter.

    I get it.

    That would put a bad taste in my mouth, too.

    I am glad that you had better experiences elsewhere.

    I would have left him a special tip.

    • #225
  16. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Donald Trump is like an alcoholic, a simple statement offering his condolences to the British people, and then he had to criticize the Mayor of London.

    The same Mayor of London who has said in the past that terrorism is just a natural part of living in a big city, and we need to get used to it. If the people of London look at Trump, and then look at their mayor, and they think Trump is the bigger problem, that tells us a great deal about how Great Britain came to be what it now is. They value style over substance; let’s not make the same mistake here.

    There is no point in Donald Trump criticizing the Mayor of London. He is the President of the United States. When Londoners are trying to process the attack in a personal way even those who dislike their mayor see it as a personal attack on themselves. The Mayor of London does not run for office in the United States, nor does he have any influence on US foreign policy. I find it interesting that Americans who resent criticism of the US by European politicians are surprised that Europeans resent the same thing.

     

    • #226
  17. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    There is no point in Donald Trump criticizing the Mayor of London.

    Agreed, I am not trying to defend Trump in this particular instance, just saying, when your country has experienced three terror attacks in three months, you should maybe have bigger fish to fry than one of Trump’s tweets.

    I really do believe that a big part of the problem in Great Britain is that many people there, especially in the elite, value style over substance: this has the effect of intimidating people into silence. People who aren’t totally confident in their ability to be totally sensitive and smooth-which is all of us, at some point or another-feel that they can’t say anything, or else they will be accused of boorishness. This, combined with political correctness, is toxic. I don’t want to see it happen here, which is why I am inclined to cut boorish people a great deal of slack. Substance over style: to put style over substance is to invite tyranny.

    • #227
  18. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Donald Trump is like an alcoholic, a simple statement offering his condolences to the British people, and then he had to criticize the Mayor of London.

    The same Mayor of London who has said in the past that terrorism is just a natural part of living in a big city, and we need to get used to it. If the people of London look at Trump, and then look at their mayor, and they think Trump is the bigger problem, that tells us a great deal about how Great Britain came to be what it now is. They value style over substance; let’s not make the same mistake here.

    Yep, terrorist attacks are a part of daily life here in San Antonio. Not.

    • #228
  19. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    It did in Paris.

    Yes, it did. It won’t happen again; the police are now — everywhere — highly armed. (Actually, I don’t know that this is true outside of Paris; it may not be true in rural areas. But certainly in Paris, the police and the military are packing a lot of heat, and visible everywhere.)

    Fooled by imagery. Just having the means to ‘pack’  is not enough. Instruction, well guided, intense, repetitive and comprehensive, insistent training, training, and more training, so that there is possibly a chance that not more then a fifth of a troop of chaps only recently exposed to proper training, especially as they have otherwise previously been pacified, demurred, and trained to be passive, and nowadays are often overweight, and tend to be initially falsely selected, most often ill led by people without relevant battle experience, when it matters freeze and fail, misfire or just run. Facts not fiction please. Check the shooting regime, frequency and design of practice, the overall physical and mental fitness  required of those you praise for ‘packing’.  Then think again, soberly, as to whether you shall rely on them to defend you. Rethink and rely on yourself. Then teach others.

    The various populations of Europe will have to learn to trust ordinary, boring, terribly virile men again to defend them. Funnily, it will be women asking for that to happen. Whilst I am not a betting man, I would expect a sea change in middle of the road, centrist party politics from municipal, state/regional, to federal level in a number of countries shortly.  ‘Man saved by woman requiring him to save both of them’ due to the imminent threat from the other man. Stunningly simple themes.

     

     

     

     

    • #229
  20. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    The prayer actually does nothing in and of itself.

    Then I don’t see why you care about who prays or who doesn’t. Really. It kinda seems like a silly attack for no reason to single out prayer as useless in this instance.

    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    @JudithannCampbell they are the pharisees praying loudly on street corners for appearance sake.

    I know you believe prayer works (I do, too) but Majestyk has the right of it on this.

     

    • #230
  21. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Mike LaRoche (View Comment):

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Donald Trump is like an alcoholic, a simple statement offering his condolences to the British people, and then he had to criticize the Mayor of London.

    The same Mayor of London who has said in the past that terrorism is just a natural part of living in a big city, and we need to get used to it. If the people of London look at Trump, and then look at their mayor, and they think Trump is the bigger problem, that tells us a great deal about how Great Britain came to be what it now is. They value style over substance; let’s not make the same mistake here.

    Yep, terrorist attacks are a part of daily life here in San Antonio. Not.

    He said “big” cities.

     

    • #231
  22. BalticSnowTiger Member
    BalticSnowTiger
    @BalticSnowTiger

    Judithann Campbell (View Comment):
    The same Mayor of London who has said in the past that terrorism is just a natural part of living in a big city, and we need to get used to it.

    Thanks for reminding everyone of that. Mr. Khan is a cameo greenish leftist, regulation obsessed, Islamism appeasing, insidious apologist for those he must hold dearer than the ordinary people who actually have to suffer from this mess. Well then, you get what you vote for. First the age of Red Ken, then Buffoon Boris, now this sodding servile silly sack of rotten ideas. Annus horribilis.

    • #232
  23. outlaws6688 Member
    outlaws6688
    @

    It has become clear to me that there are two factions of the right when it comes to this issue. There are those who are for Muslim immigration and contribute to the death of the west and those who don’t. After so many incidents I am no longer willing to give the the first group the benefit of the doubt, and I am no longer willing to make common cause with them.

    • #233
  24. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    I wonder if the main argument here might be flight vs fight? Fighters are calling out flighters and vice versa. I’ve found myself in multiple situations where I was threatened or in danger and I’m definitely a fighter. I don’t consider myself brave. It just seems to come on as a matter of instinct. Bravery is performing under high stress and fear. I and others just seem hard wired to lash out. One isn’t better than the other in my opinion. Flighters are more rational in my opinion and are better under sustained threat. Under instantaneous threat, flighters go into shock and fighters act. Both may need to find common ground and find ways to compliment each other in this crisis?

    This isn’t going away soon. I am seeing fatigue. The worst of both instincts is starting to cause fear and tension.

    • #234
  25. Herbert defender of the Realm,… Member
    Herbert defender of the Realm,…
    @Herbert

    Stina (View Comment):
    @JudithannCampbell they are the pharisees praying loudly on street corners for appearance sake.

    I know you believe prayer works (I do, too) but Majestyk has the right of it on this.

    is public prayer the oldest form of virtue signaling?

     

    • #235
  26. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Stina (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    The prayer actually does nothing in and of itself.

    Then I don’t see why you care about who prays or who doesn’t. Really. It kinda seems like a silly attack for no reason to single out prayer as useless in this instance.

    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    @JudithannCampbell they are the pharisees praying loudly on street corners for appearance sake.

    I know you believe prayer works (I do, too) but Majestyk has the right of it on this.

    All of them? Every time? Even the ones that do pray?

    • #236
  27. Casey Inactive
    Casey
    @Casey

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    wonder if the main argument here might be flight vs fight?

    The question is what we want to do as a matter of policy.

    A player gets a neck injury and the other players are right there to help. But they don’t. They’re told to let him be until the trainer gets there. The players helping may do more harm than good.

    If I was in charge and I had many many decades of experience with this sort of thing, I wouldn’t want people in my way “helping.”

    • #237
  28. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Percival (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    The prayer actually does nothing in and of itself.

    Then I don’t see why you care about who prays or who doesn’t. Really. It kinda seems like a silly attack for no reason to single out prayer as useless in this instance.

    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    @JudithannCampbell they are the pharisees praying loudly on street corners for appearance sake.

    I know you believe prayer works (I do, too) but Majestyk has the right of it on this.

    All of them? Every time? Even the ones that do pray?

    I have found the most power, is in person, stop right there, and pray for and with the person.

     

    • #238
  29. Judithann Campbell Member
    Judithann Campbell
    @

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    The prayer actually does nothing in and of itself.

    Then I don’t see why you care about who prays or who doesn’t. Really. It kinda seems like a silly attack for no reason to single out prayer as useless in this instance.

    It’s a thing that the person doing it engaged in to signal virtue or group solidarity. That’s not nothing, but if your goal is to change the thing you’re concerned about, perhaps doing something about it would be a good place to start.

    @JudithannCampbell they are the pharisees praying loudly on street corners for appearance sake.

    I know you believe prayer works (I do, too) but Majestyk has the right of it on this.

    All of them? Every time? Even the ones that do pray?

    I have found the most power, is in person, stop right there, and pray for and with the person.

    How did I get involved in this part of the thread? I don’t remember saying anything about prayer :)

    • #239
  30. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):Where is the leadership infiltrating and shutting down the Imams and mosques that are recruiting? What is being done to get people to integrate? Do you see this getting better under current conditions?

    You know what the US’ (not so) secret weapon with integration is? Americans.

    Not the Govt or Govt policy – the people. Because Americans are essentially open to outsiders, outsiders become Americans.

    Yes, America changes on the surface thereby, but that’s also something the people are generally not afraid of. Or weren’t.

    Integration is required here, so the melting pot works. It’s always been that way. Are you saying Europeans are not open to outsiders, so people cannot integrate?

    Europeans have been much less culturally (and therefore imho personally)  open to migrants than the US.   That’s why the US makes Americans out of migrants so much better than Germany makes Germans out of Gästarbeiters.

    i would venture a guess that this is the difference between (to grossly oversimplify) London and the rest of England.  London is good at making migrants into Londoners.

    • #240
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