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  2. Can We Know What is Good (or Evil) Without God?
December 27, 2023 at 5:10 PM

Can We Know What is Good (or Evil) Without God?

Western Chauvinist
@WesternChauvinist

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I'll answer my own question up front by stating that, collectively, as the West secularizes, it is self evident the answer is a resounding, "No!" There are individuals who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and still live "good" lives. There are even people here on Ricochet who are unsure of God's existence and, in all likelihood, are living mostly good lives (although we're all sinners in some way). The Bible addresses this saying that God's law is written on our hearts. On some level, we "know" what is good and what is evil.

So how did we get to the point where some people believe falsely accusing and attempting to (or actually) imprisoning their political opponents is "good?" Or, even more egregiously, promoting the surgical removal of healthy body parts of sexually confused minors is a "good" for which its opposite (treating the mental condition) is "evil?"

I happened to watch a video prior to reading Susan Quinn's thought-provoking post that seems helpful. It offers an explanation of the misguided assertion that "love is love" and three good ways to answer the morally confused we encounter.

To repeat:

  1. Love becomes sinful (not love) when it is directed at the wrong object ("the world")
  2. Love is not love when it is arises from the wrong source (also "the world")
  3. Love is not love when it produces the wrong fruit.

First, what do Christians mean by "the world?" It refers to God's creation corrupted by Satan in The Fall and over which Satan governs -- for now. There is much more here to be discussed and debated and over which even Christians may not entirely agree. But, the point I'm trying to make is the denial of a transcendent, objective Good (God) is necessarily an embrace of "the world" -- what could be the definition of post-modern, secular materialism or what I like to call "neo-paganism." Which is way more wicked than the old pre-Judeo-Christian paganism, given the knowledge of and ultimate rejection of the good Judaism and Christianity have done in the world.

People who say "love is love" are prone to argue that public affirmation of homosexual relationships is a "good" simply because it's what same-sex attracted people desire (see #1 above) and because "the majority" ("the world" -- #2) agrees with it. This despite the obvious disorder and biological incompatibility of relations between two people of the same sex and the literal sterility of their sexual acts (#3). Same-sex attracted couples can't be parents in either the biological or ontological sense. Men can't be mothers and women can't be fathers, despite the latest trans-insanity. They don't just produce the "wrong fruit" -- they produce no fruit at all. I have personal knowledge of broken same-sex relationships which have devastated the kids they've acquired either through sperm donors or rented wombs. Terribly tragic for all involved and, yes, even worse than when biological parents divorce.

But, the examples of disordered love today are numerous and up in our faces -- transgenderism "affirming" the mutilation and sterilization of children (Ramaswamy says it's not compassion, it's cruelty), unjust prosecutions ostensibly to protect "our democracy," and my new personal favorite -- using the celebration of Jesus' birth to justify Hamas's desire to kill Jews and conquer Israel since Jesus was "a Palestinian Jew and a refugee." Thanks AOC, you're a real moral idiot mensch!

As Voddie Baucham says, if a man comes to him and says he's in love with a woman not his wife, it would be cruel to affirm him in his disordered desire. Cruel to the man, his wife, and the wrong object (other woman) of his so-called "love." The answer to such encounters is, as the Faith Talk Youtuber says, Compassion, Clarity and Conviction. Three C's make it easy to remember and guide us in how to authentically love even our enemies.

Today is the Feast of St. Stephen in the Roman Catholic Church. He was the first Christian martyr -- stoned to death for preaching Jesus as the Messiah. And, yes, the Church intentionally puts his feast day immediately after the Solemnity of the Nativity because Stephen is an imitator of Christ and points to the Crucifixion that will come with the Incarnation, even asking God for the forgiveness of his murderers as Christ did from the Cross. He lays down his life for the Gospel (Good News). What makes Stephen a saint is his desire for the (eternal) good of others, even at the expense of his own life.

In an Advent meditation by Fr. Joseph Mary Wolfe, Chaplain of EWTN, he says:

Mary, the Mother of God, calls herself "a lowly servant." Just a few verses before this, she calls herself the 'handmaid of the Lord.' Think about that for a moment. If the Blessed Virgin is a lowly servant, how much more should we be ready to serve God and others?

And we know that Jesus Himself was the ultimate servant. Think of His words as He washed the feet of the Apostles:

Whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Mt 20:26-28)

And from another meditation, this one from Saint Caesarius of Arles (monk and archbishop +543):

Therefore, dearly beloved, let us imitate blessed Stephen as far as God gives us the grace to do so. Let us not only love our friends but also our enemies, because there is nothing whereby we can so well redeem our sins, overcome the devil, and please God. The Lord himself has said this: Give and it shall be given to you; pardon, and you shall be pardoned.

I've been contemplating how one overcomes evil in the people of Hamas, for example. And while I'm not ready to act on it and I'm not advocating it for Israel, there's something in me that says the only means of helping people to convert to the good (God) is the radical, self-sacrificing love exhibited by Stephen and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. No greater love than this. . .

This post was promoted to the Main Feed at the recommendation of Ricochet's members.

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    Ed G.@EdG·2y

    Oh that little question? Easy peasy. Just kidding (or, jk as my kids say).

    On the title question I think that there is no such thing as Good and Evil without God. These terms are inherently dependent on the existence of The Transcendent and on explicit revelation or derived from explicit revelation, just like legal and illegal presuppose a system of law and specific laws .

    Of course, I believe and assume that God is. So I therefore believe there is Good and Evil.

    How do I know which is which? Revelation and reason derived from revelation.

    What if someone accepts revelation I reject (or if someone mis-reasons from revelation I accept, or if someone rejects the concept of revelation and capital T Truth)? As long as it's some theoretical question swirling around then God will sort it out. If push comes to shove then I'll defend myself. If society needs to choose an organizing or animating principle broadly or narrowly then I'll vote, persuade, influence, debate, move, defend myself.

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    Ed G.@EdG·2y

    I've been trying to ponder your post in between pesky work, so I may be missing something about how the YouTube discussion of love and love is love connects to the point. I can be as obtuse as the next guy, so please go easy on me if it's obvious.

    One thing I was thinking in connection with love is to reaffirm what love actually is and what it isn't. Love isn't desire isn't lust. I'll have to think more about the rest of it but something in that video isn't sitting quite right.

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    Ed G.@EdG·2y
    Western Chauvinist (View Post):
    Today is the Feast of St. Stephen in the Roman Catholic Church. He was the first Christian martyr — stoned to death for preaching Jesus as the Messiah. And, yes, the Church intentionally puts his feast day immediately after the Solemnity of the Nativity because Stephen is an imitator of Christ and points to the Crucifixion that will come with the Incarnation, even asking God for the forgiveness of his murderers as Christ did from the Cross. He lays down his life for the Gospel (Good News). What makes Stephen a saint is his desire for the (eternal) good of others, even at the expense of his own life.

    This part can get sticky out there in the world.

    We shouldn't shy away from Truth and loving others for fear of being hurt (or worse). There is no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend. Is that the line? Then what about enemies? I understand that to mean we should continue to pray for enemies and even to forgive them, but that doesn't mean we're called to lay down our lives for them.

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    Western Chauvinist@WesternChauvinist·2y
    ReplyingtoEd G.

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    I’ve been trying to ponder your post in between pesky work, so I may be missing something about how the YouTube discussion of love and love is love connects to the point. I can be as obtuse as the next guy, so please go easy on me if it’s obvious.

    One thing I was thinking in connection with love is to reaffirm what love actually is and what it isn’t. Love isn’t desire isn’t lust. I’ll have to think more about the rest of it but something in that video isn’t sitting quite right.

    What's love got to do with it? . . . got to do with it, got to do with it?

    God is Love, right? (boy, did I think that statement was trite when I was a teenager in catechism class). And authentic love (objective, if you like) is willing the good of the other as other -- even (or especially) if it costs you.

    Telling your gay friend you can't affirm his same-sex relationship because you don't believe it is good for him (or his other) is likely to cost you a friendship. Unless, somehow, you're able to exhibit compassion while speaking of the nature of his disordered desire with clarity and conviction. And even then, such is the nature of disordered desires you may still lose your friendship.

    The neo-pagans, having given up on objective truth (goodness and beauty -- on God) and are self-creating and proud of their disordered ideas of what is good. Their identity is bound up completely in their twisted ideology. They've fallen for Satan's promise that "you will be as gods. . ." defining what is right and wrong for themselves.

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    Western Chauvinist@WesternChauvinist·2y
    ReplyingtoEd G.

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Post):

    Western Chauvinist (View Post):
    Today is the Feast of St. Stephen in the Roman Catholic Church. He was the first Christian martyr — stoned to death for preaching Jesus as the Messiah. And, yes, the Church intentionally puts his feast day immediately after the Solemnity of the Nativity because Stephen is an imitator of Christ and points to the Crucifixion that will come with the Incarnation, even asking God for the forgiveness of his murderers as Christ did from the Cross. He lays down his life for the Gospel (Good News). What makes Stephen a saint is his desire for the (eternal) good of others, even at the expense of his own life.

    This part can get sticky out there in the world.

    We shouldn’t shy away from Truth and loving others for fear of being hurt (or worse). There is no greater love than to lay down your life for a friend. Is that the line? Then what about enemies? I understand that to mean we should continue to pray for enemies and even to forgive them, but that doesn’t mean we’re called to lay down our lives for them.

    You mean like Jesus did when we were still sinners?

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