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August 4, 2025 at 11:00 AM

The Identity of Indiscernibles

Saint Augustine
@SaintAugustine

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John Locke - Wikipedia

Picture, if you will, a universe with nothing in it except two perfect spheres with exactly the same color, size, and weight--the same everything, in fact. Except that they aren't the same thing.

Or are they?

And if they aren't, what makes them different?

And what's the point of saying they're different if you can't tell them apart?

Meet Castor and Pollux. "Castor" and "Pollux" are the names we use for these wonderful spheres, even though they don't have names. (That's just one of those differences they don't have.) Castor and Pollux come from a famous philosophy article by Max Black.

The whole point of this line of thinking is to understand that things are not just the sum of their size, color, shape, location, etc. But one worry with this way of thinking is that it means there are differences between things that seem to make no difference. It turns out that John Locke thought that way--behind all of a thing's properties is its unseen, unknown substance.

But David Hume thought it's silly to believe in differences that make no difference. A lot of philosophers follow his way of thinking, and they don't believe in hidden identity or hidden substance like Locke did.

I like Locke, and sometimes I like Hume. You know what else I like? I likes me some Leibniz! Gottfried Leibniz thought things are not just the sum of their size, color, shape, location, etc.--there's a substance and essence beyond all that. He also thought that these essential differences make a difference.

I'm on his team.

Gottfried Leibniz - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Frankly, this whole thing is obscure metaphysics--it's lovely, but still obscure philosophy talk.

But it's not just that. The relevance is that things do have natures, or essences--a built-in identity deeper than their accidental characteristics. My favorite teacup could have had a broken handle, but it couldn't have been a functional shoe. I could have been a dentist, but not an orangutan.

If that's all true, then we can also talk about some stuff that really matters, like the idea that people have free will. We can even have unfashionable but important discussions of what possibilities are open to a being with boy parts--he can't be a girl--and whether a male-male romantic relationship is the kind of thing that can be a marriage or not. There are always some practical applications and moral questions in the vicinity of metaphysics.

But--honestly--the vast majority of the conversation of this topic is just very nerdy metaphysics.

I recently published an article touting the Leibniz way of thinking about this topic. Here it is. You can read it--if you can get a copy from a college library, and if you think you're nerd enough.

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    Saint Augustine@SaintAugustine·1y

    Batman tackles the topic:

    Steam Community :: :: It's not who i am underneath. But what i do that defines me.

    YouTube intro to my article:

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    Saint Augustine@SaintAugustine·1y

    Note that Locke clearly has the least ridiculous hairstyle.

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    Arahant@Arahant·1y

    I know that I am not nerd enough. But I also know there are always more characteristics to differentiate two things. Spatial and temporal position are two more of these characteristics.

    I have batteries in my toothbrush. They are not the same batteries I had in there a year ago, even though they are the same type of batteries in the same place. Same place, but not the same time. That reminds me. I need to go change my batteries. I also need to go change the head.

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    Brickhouse Hank@HankRhody·1y
    Saint Augustine (View Post):
    Picture, if you will, a universe with nothing in it except two perfect spheres with exactly the same color, size, and weight–the same everything, in fact.

    If they're not cows then no sale.

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    Arahant@Arahant·1y
    ReplyingtoBrickhouse Hank

    Brickhouse Hank (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Post):

    Saint Augustine (View Post):
    Picture, if you will, a universe with nothing in it except two perfect spheres with exactly the same color, size, and weight–the same everything, in fact.

    If they’re not cows then no sale.

    He did not say whether they were cows. Or whether they were wethers.

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