On The Cusp of the Volcano

There are few on planet Earth who’ve spilled as much ink over concerns on Western Civilization’s decline as today’s guest Douglas Murray. Nevertheless, he’s betting long on America even though he’s well aware of the onslaught recounted in his latest bestseller, The War on the West. (Order your copy today!) Murray takes us through the complications of finding things to agree on when the past is upended by our foes; how his new home country became the heart of the problem; and the very fine surgical procedure needed to not only fight the good fight but to win it.

The fellas discuss the January 6th Committee–or rather, the diversion masquerading as an investigation. They’re somewhat intrigued by the public fur flying at the Washington Post, and they describe some of their tippy top pet peeves as far as vocabulary and grammar are concerned.

(Got any linguistic peeves? Let’s hear ’em, Ricochetti!)

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  1. BDB Coolidge
    BDB
    @BDB

    Ricochet Audio Network: (Got any linguistic peeves? Let’s hear ’em, Ricochetti!)

    “Have got.”

    Even Blessed Garner accepts this travesty, and Heaven knows the recidivist Brits cannot keep it from their mouths.

    “Have got” is a bastard with three fathers: “have”, “got”, and “have gotten.”  It always means one of those, and always should be one of those.

    HARRUMPH.

    Next thing, Garner will accept “gots”.

    • #1
  2. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    What did Trump do on the 6th.  What did the “mob” do.  Why are we going along with the Democrat talking points.   If anything it was a set up and some people were dumb enough to be pulled in.  That’s about it. 

    • #2
  3. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    BDB (View Comment):

    Ricochet Audio Network: (Got any linguistic peeves? Let’s hear ’em, Ricochetti!)

    “Have got.”

    Even Blessed Garner accepts this travesty, and Heaven knows the recidivist Brits cannot keep it from their mouths.

    “Have got” is a bastard with three fathers: “have”, “got”, and “have gotten.” It always means one of those, and always should be one of those.

    HARRUMPH.

    Next thing, Garner will accept “gots”.

    [Disclaimer: “Like” can simply mean, “Glad someone finally brought this up” and not necessarily, “I agree with you”. ]

    • #3
  4. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Ricochet Audio Network: (Got any linguistic peeves? Let’s hear ’em, Ricochetti!)

    • #4
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    “could of,” “should of,” “would of”…

    • #5
  6. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    kedavis (View Comment):

    “could of,” “should of,” “would of”…

    What about those same words in spoken English (“could’ve”, e.g.)?

    Also a peeve?

    Or is only a peeve when a person says “could of“?

    If the latter, be it known that when I say “could’ve”

    • it is phonetically indistinguishable from “could of”, and
    • I always am saying “could’ve”.  Never “could of”.
    • #6
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    “could of,” “should of,” “would of”…

    What about those same words in spoken English (“could’ve”, e.g.)?

    Also a peeve?

    Or is only a peeve when a person says “could of“?

    If the latter, be it known that when I say “could’ve”

    • it is phonetically indistinguishable from “could of”, and
    • I always am saying “could’ve”. Never “could of”.

    For these it’s mostly a case of when they’re written, not spoken.  Although I expect that many people who think they are written as “of” think they’re said that way too, and there can be a small but distinct difference in how they’re said.

    And grammar exists for both writing and speaking.

    • #7
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    To continue:  it’s probably best to remember that the ‘ve contraction only removes the “h” sound, but the rest – including/especially the vowel sound – should be said the same as if it were two words.

    So, could-av, rather than could-of, or could-uv.  Which each has a different sound, unless maybe you’re from Boston or Brooklyn or something, and have trouble with standard pronunciations.

    On his radio show, Dennis Miller would sometimes talk about how, coming from Philadelphia, if he was going to say “wolf” he had to make a special effort to say “wolf” rather than “woof.”

    And speaker systems typically have at least two components, a woofer and a tweeter.  I’ve seen people who say/write “wolfer” instead, maybe because they’re from Philadelphia too so they think when they hear “woofer” maybe it’s someone else from Philadelphia trying to say “wolfer.”

    Dennis Miller isn’t the only one, either.

     

    • #8
  9. Quintus Sertorius Coolidge
    Quintus Sertorius
    @BillGollier

    Happy Friday Gentlemen…

    First of all I very much enjoy this podcast and love Ricochet…I look forward to this podcast and read this site 3-4 times a day. While currently a Coolidge member I am hoping to upgrade soon. 

    However, I was very disappointed with today’s podcast which really bums me out because I so excited for the Douglas Murray interview. Here are my reasons:

    1.  You discussed the January 6th Hearings..fine but you totally left out the pigeon holing of the attack on Justice Kavanaugh. It was on page A-20 of the New York Times. Can you imagine the outcry if a Maga hat wearing individual had attempted to assassinate Justice Kagan or Brown?? This is why so many on the center right or right are sick of the January 6th hearings…there is no fair play here. What Schumer did and the attack on Justice Kavanaugh are every bit a threat to the national fabric as January 6th…yet crickets not only by the main stream press but by this podcast as well. I know Peter mentioned it but it should have weighed equally with that Kangaroo court show from last night (None other than Andrew McCarthy stated it was close to a Kangaroo Court) 

    2. You discuss that Republicans (and Democrats) need to go to the center and not just bow to the “base”….valid point. However, what you failed to mentioned was that for all his faults Donald Trump opened the Republican Party up to a more divers coalition than any Republican since Herbert Hoover…yes..I would argue even more than the sainted Ronald Reagan. Even in 2020 Donald Trump improved his numbers among African American Males, African American Females and all Hispanic voters..and of course working class whites….the Republican Party has become a new party. What you are in a sense arguing is that any candidate needs to go back to the Reagan model and appeal to suburban educated voters…..the hell with those working class and middle class stiffs of all ethnic groups and genders…we need Jonah Goldberg, David French and those rich suburban educated moms and dads….sure maybe some that but to dismiss the switch in the Republican Coalition is shallow at best. You can argue Donald Trump misplayed his campaign (as Attorney Barr does) in 2020 and that he lost…I will agree with both of those…but he deserves credit for opening the Republican Party up to a more more ethnically diverse block than anyone sine Hoover in 1928. By the way the value of his candidacy for 2024 is a different topic. 

     

    3. The interview with Douglas Murray….man…I was so bummed with this…I was finishing mowing….taking an implement off my tractor and almost hurt myself because I just could not believ the direction this interview went. For the first time in years I had to stop the podcast…maybe the interview 

    • #9
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Quintus Sertorius (View Comment):
    First of all I very much enjoy this podcast and love Ricochet…I look forward to this podcast and read this site 3-4 times a day. While currently a Coolidge member I am hoping to upgrade soon. 

    Are you aware that, at present, your only upgrade path is from Coolidge at $5 per month, to Reagan at $42 per month (or $500 per year)?

    • #10
  11. Quintus Sertorius Coolidge
    Quintus Sertorius
    @BillGollier

    Continued

    improved but 15 minuets in I had enough. I was ready to hear about the issues impacting western culture and what I got was an expose on how if we don’t watch out those evil nut jobs from the right will come flying out. I could get this from NPR on a daily basis for free. The John Birch Society nor the Proud Boys have any real power right now anywhere…even in the Republican Party. The radical left is in full control…I just left teaching after 30 years due to that very fact. Now rather Noah Rothman or John Pod. et al think we are in a culture war means nothing we are….and it has to be fought while also fighting for fiscal responsibility and foreign policy. Conservatives can walk and chew gum at the same time. I really wish this interview had gone a different direction than the first 15 min discussing how the right needs to watch how it fights….that is all we ever here from everywhere…from the left…from Jonah Goldberg…from George Will…..I’m not advocating a Civil War but the Radical Left or New Left is out for blood…they have already destroyed the old Truman/FDR Liberals…now that they have destroyed them they are our for the conservative movement.

    Each of you should read Norm Pod interview in this issues of the Claremont Review of Books…as a former New Lefter he knows the score and the stakes.

    Thanks for the discussion and the forum…this place is amazing!! Have a great evening!!

    • #11
  12. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    If Trump withdrew from the race for 2024, then all the time Democratic Congressmen and prosecutors, and their media allies, spend attacking him would be freed up to spend on tearing down the next Republicans in line.

    It would be good for Trump’s reputation, of course, as before long the media would be comparing him positively to the “uniquely and unprecedentedly horrible” Republicans still in the arena.

    • #12
  13. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Quintus Sertorius (View Comment):
    fighting for fiscal responsibility

    This is a complete waste of time. It will never happen for a variety of reasons. Take other ground.

    • #13
  14. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Ah, but Trump did expand his base in 2020. However, with Zuck bucks and Kung Flu shenanigans he had the election stolen from him. We’ll see if the R side of the uniparty can retain them. I’m with Quintus that the opening was hard to listen to. 

    • #14
  15. Leslie Watkins Member
    Leslie Watkins
    @LeslieWatkins

    Quintus Sertorius (View Comment):

    Happy Friday Gentlemen…

    First of all I very much enjoy this podcast and love Ricochet…I look forward to this podcast and read this site 3-4 times a day. While currently a Coolidge member I am hoping to upgrade soon.

    However, I was very disappointed with today’s podcast which really bums me out because I so excited for the Douglas Murray interview.


    May I ask in what way we’re you disappointed with the Murray interview? I found it lacking somehow but can’t say why.

    • #15
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    @peterrobinson the man was arrested at Kavanaugh’s house, not Gorsuch’s.

    • #16
  17. JennaStocker Member
    JennaStocker
    @JennaStocker

    I enjoyed this episode. It was great to have the three hosts back at once, not that the guest hosts weren’t enjoyable, but one needs to be reminded how well @peterrobinson @jameslileks and @roblong work together, and the extended host discussions before and after Douglas Murray’s spot were excellent examples of that. 

    As for San Francisco, it echoes what happened here in Minneapolis last fall: the minority communities hardest hit by escalating violent crime voted to keep the Minneapolis police department when it was put to a vote, while the affluent, white (and very liberal) communities voted to “defund” the MPD. Both of these indicate…something.

    The most striking part for me was the discussion about the lack of good conservative creative content. What I go back to time and again is something Rob said a while ago: just make great art. A model I am always in awe of is James and his writing, something so at ease with the world around us, so obvious to the eyes and ears as it is consumed, its ubiquitousness makes it seem like the message has always been with us while allowing the reader to think he is let in on some secret made known just at that moment. That’s the trouble with making art a vehicle for a political narrative. It’s hokey and awkward and feels like being struck with a blunt object rather than being showered with insight and truth. Conservatives need to be more confident in our ideas – universal principles that are American principles  – ideas that embrace moral virtue and objective truths and founding ideals. By anchoring art in those things first, rather than the political winds from all sorts of storms brew, I think we would have more success making inroads in the culture.

    Thanks again for the enlightening discussion. We’ll be here for 600 if you are (which reminds me to buy a new set of sheets).

    • #17
  18. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Peter’s information about DC is a bit out of date. The fence around the Capitol is gone. It’s now around the Supreme Court. The talk about bums was correct though. I was there for work at the end of May and we finished early on the last day. With my free time I got to downtown around 2:30. My daughter wanted me to visit the Lincoln Memorial for her.

    Here’s the Capitol.

    I wanted to see if the Moloch worshippers were still at Supreme Court. They weren’t but the fence was there.

    I was surprised at the lack of tents. So much that I took a picture when I saw one. Only saw a few during my whole walk.

    The Mall was sparsely filled. I don’t know if people are still afraid of Kung Flu. Probably Joe’s intentionally high gas prices are keeping people away. Some tourist groups and school groups, but I had no trouble walking around. 

    • #18
  19. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    [deleted]

    Don’t know how that doubled up.

    • #19
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    James, maybe you were just funnin’ and you already knew, but just in case, “gunwales” is pronounced “gunnels,” not “gun-whales.”

    Or, Throat-warbler-mangrove.

    • #20
  21. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    kedavis (View Comment):

    James, maybe you were just funnin’ and you already knew, but just in case, “gunwales” is pronounced “gunnels,” not “gun-whales.”

    Or, Throat-warbler-mangrove.

    Hah, right. Nice try. Everyone knows the Gunwales are manned by Corpse-men.

    • #21
  22. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    re: Matthew J. Dowd

    Everybody in that camp comes off as disingenuous to make money or stupid. I can’t believe how bad it is. If I had a zillion dollars I would strongly consider trying to ruin their lives somehow. Who in the hell listens to them on anything?

    • #22
  23. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    “Try to find agreement.”

    Mitt Romney won’t endorse Mike Lee. Mitt Romney is a Principles First type.  These people are stupid dupes of Omidyar and they actually think GOPe boiler plate is intelligent. They want everybody that thinks like MAGA destroyed. They don’t think there is anything in there that has any merit. 

    Have you seen what Evan McMullin is doing to undermine Mike Lee? They aren’t even running a democrat so the Democrats can vote for him. Romney is effectively for this.

    I am all for RINOs as long as they limit the damage they do, which is not what is going on most of the time.

     

    • #23
  24. Quintus Sertorius Coolidge
    Quintus Sertorius
    @BillGollier

    Leslie Watkins (View Comment):

     


    May I ask in what way we’re you disappointed with the Murray interview? I found it lacking somehow but can’t say why.

    Happy Saturday and thanks for the response!!! 

    I may need to go back and listen again as I was mowing and working on some equipment so I could well have misunderstood the direction.

    I very much enjoy Douglas Murray and am reading “War on the West” so I was excited to hear his discussion on the issues in the book. I have already listed to several interviews of his about the book (Megan Kelley for example) so was excited to hear Peter, Rob and James’ line of questioning.  This was enhanced by my reading of Norman Pot. interview in the print edition of the Claremont Review of Books. However what I heard was a litany of “watch for the right wing whackos” and if the right fights to hard all the crazies will come out like with Charlottesville and January 6th etc etc….I do understand that line of reasoning and don’t disagree; However I can hear that every day on NPR, CNN, Dispatch, et al….I was not expecting this podcast to go that direction…Megan Kelly sure did not in her interview. This made me turn it off as there was nothing new here. Now again…I may have missed something and I most likely missed something of note later on but I am tired of hearing from both the left and the right intellegensia that if the right responds to the left all the crazies will come out and we will be in Hitler 2.0. Well…the crazies from the left are not only out but they are in positions of real power….schools….media….entertainment…Congress….4th Branch of government….we are so worried about Hitler that we have allowed to Stalin/Lenin to not only sneak in the back door but also welcome with open arms. That is my line of thinking…..hope this is a bit more clear….

     

    • #24
  25. Quintus Sertorius Coolidge
    Quintus Sertorius
    @BillGollier

    Just a small addendum…

    One can trace this back to 1939-1941 when instead of trying to really deal with both Hitler and Stalin in 1939 (the book Stalin’s War lays out a very strong case that there was real coalition that would have isolated both dictators) Stalin became old Uncle Joe and so today you can wear Bolshevik and CCP gear and you are kind of a hero….who cares about the 100-200 million if not more  killed in a span of less than 50 years by what Stalin established. Still to this day even in books trying to bring out Stalin’s brutality still subtly lets him off the hook in some way.

    Secondly…Norm Pod. interview in Claremont is well worth reading….he flat out says we are at war and must fight….it is a fascinating interview.

    • #25
  26. Wolfsheim Member
    Wolfsheim
    @Wolfsheim

    On language: Trained in linguistics decades ago (PhD), I have heard all the arguments about the inevitability of language change and the folly of prescriptivism. I have found a middle ground, being both a “scientific linguist” and a curmudgeon.

    My “pet peeves” are many, but I’ll limit them here to three:

    (1) There is/was/has been + plural noun, e.g. “There’s (No! There are!) very few people who know the history of English well.”

    (2) “He’s one of those few people who knows (No! know!) the history of English well.”

    (3) “If he would have known (No! had known!) the history of English well, he wouldn’t have made such a claim.”

    I have heard even conservative commentators make all three mistakes.

    Now about strong verbs: As a German speaker, I say “helfen, half, geholfen,” but except when I am quoting Chaucer (hath holpen), I say “helped” when speaking English. Many strong verbs in English have, over the centuries, been converted to weak verbs, and there’s (almost) no going back. Peter Robinson picks misleading examples in speaking of “dive” and “sneak”: By the early 14th century, the transitive/causative counterpart of duvan, a weak form, had driven out the strong form; “dove” is a dialectal form that’s now accepted in the standard language. If “sneak” is taken to derive from Old English (which it may not), we should be saying sneak, snack, sneak. “Snuck” is now acceptable, but its origin is not unlike Dizzy Dean’s (slide/slud), i.e. hardly pedigree.

    Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (Rob Long mispronounces Gawain, but, hey, no one is perfect, not even Sir Gawain!) is much harder for speakers of Modern English to read in the original than Chaucer, in part because it has many more Germanic words, including many Scandinavian borrowings. Ah, but the argument that Germanic words should be preferred to Latinate words is a bit dépassé. I would say ça dépend…

    • #26
  27. OwnedByDogs Coolidge
    OwnedByDogs
    @JuliaBlaschke

    I Walton (View Comment):

    What did Trump do on the 6th. What did the “mob” do. Why are we going along with the Democrat talking points. If anything it was a set up and some people were dumb enough to be pulled in. That’s about it.

    I’d prefer it if those dumb people are dissuaded from being led into such stupidity again. It has given the Democrats a big stick to wallop us with for a generation. 

    • #27
  28. Wolfsheim Member
    Wolfsheim
    @Wolfsheim

    kedavis (View Comment):

    To continue: it’s probably best to remember that the ‘ve contraction only removes the “h” sound, but the rest – including/especially the vowel sound – should be said the same as if it were two words.

    So, could-av, rather than could-of, or could-uv. Which each has a different sound, unless maybe you’re from Boston or Brooklyn or something, and have trouble with standard pronunciations.

    On his radio show, Dennis Miller would sometimes talk about how, coming from Philadelphia, if he was going to say “wolf” he had to make a special effort to say “wolf” rather than “woof.”

    And speaker systems typically have at least two components, a woofer and a tweeter. I’ve seen people who say/write “wolfer” instead, maybe because they’re from Philadelphia too so they think when they hear “woofer” maybe it’s someone else from Philadelphia trying to say “wolfer.”

    Dennis Miller isn’t the only one, either.


    My comment: Across languages, -l before a consonant tends to weaken or disappear. In English, one speaks of “the old cheese,” but in Dutch it’s de oude kaas. German “halb” has a clear l, but English “half” has lost it. People who pronounce “calm” with an l are influenced by spelling pronunciation…I have a personal interest in how “wolf” is pronounced and wince when I hear “woof,” but I chalk (!) it up to phonological caprice. How do you pronounce “salve” and “falcon”?

     

    • #28
  29. La Tapada Member
    La Tapada
    @LaTapada

    I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, but I’ll share that one of my grammar peeves is that we are losing use of the subjunctive in English.

    I am used to using the subjunctive in both Spanish and English. An example of correct use of the subjunctive is: “To encourage everyone, it is important that the President speak to the nation.” But over and over I am seeing journalists in online news media writing “…it is important that the President speaks to the nation.”

    Perhaps this is just language changing and I’m an old stick-in-the-mud. :)

    • #29
  30. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Quintus Sertorius (View Comment):
    However what I heard was a litany of “watch for the right wing whackos” and if the right fights to hard all the crazies will come out like with Charlottesville and January 6th etc etc….I do understand that line of reasoning and don’t disagree; However I can hear that every day on NPR, CNN, Dispatch, et al….I was not expecting this podcast to go that direction…Megan Kelly sure did not in her interview. This made me turn it off as there was nothing new here.

    I don’t know anything about this, but there is a lot of hostility between him and people sort of to the right of American Greatness. I’ve seen Pedro Gonzalez and at least one other guy talk about it. I mean these guys think he’s genuinely out to ruin their lives. Again I don’t know anything about it. Plus, they have to be a lot crazier than that before I have an opinion. 

    • #30
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