On the most recent edition of the Ricochet Podcast, former Federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy was our guest to discuss the Michael Flynn case. In the course of that conversation, Andy mentioned to Rob that perhaps it might be valuable to have a longer, in depth conversation about the details of the case then was possible in a single guest segment on the Ricochet Podcast. As we are never one to let an opportunity to let a great guest give us more time go to waste, here is that conversation.

Subscribe to Ricochet Podcast in Apple Podcasts (and leave a 5-star review, please!), or by RSS feed. For all our podcasts in one place, subscribe to the Ricochet Audio Network Superfeed in Apple Podcasts or by RSS feed.

Now become a Ricochet member for only $5.00 a month! Join and see what you’ve been missing.

There are 28 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. Arahant Member

    Good interview. Trust a Celt to end it with, “It’s always 5:00 somewhere.”

    • #1
    • May 14, 2020, at 12:33 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  2. Scott R Member
    Scott R Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Rob, you’re good at this, pls keep doing.

    • #2
    • May 14, 2020, at 4:11 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  3. Guruforhire Member

    I think the country could get past maybe a dozen or so people in the DoJ and FBI losing perspective

    I think the country could get past institutionalists trying to cover it up because the institutions are vital and loss of faith in hte institutions would be disastrous.

    But now that, lets call it the conspiracy fact problem, is out and undeniable, and there is absolutely no real will due to PPP (petty partisan politics), we cannot come together and say that the other side are jerks but this not OK.

    This isn’t hard. Obama and Biden toss Comey under the bus. Comey, brennan and clapper have some very painful trials, and its over.

    The fact that this cannot happen is burning the legitimacy of the state to the ground.

     

    Failed coups have consequences.

     

    • #3
    • May 14, 2020, at 4:27 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  4. Al French of Damascus Moderator

    It will be hard for Obama and Biden to throw Comey, Brennan and Clapper under the bus if they themselves are deeply responsible.

    • #4
    • May 14, 2020, at 4:50 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  5. MiMac Thatcher

    it is maddening that it is almost certain no one will go to jail for the abuse of power by the Obama administration in this whole Flynn- crossfire hurricane fiasco

    • #5
    • May 14, 2020, at 4:57 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  6. Luke Thatcher

    I keep hearing that we can’t protect the country without these powers/tools. We need the FISC, the patriot act, the this , the that… These explanations lack sufficient information to be valid. Explain or GTFO . I’m weary of these hollow claims. Delete the unconstitutional FISC. 

    • #6
    • May 14, 2020, at 4:59 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  7. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    I don’t consider myself to be a rah rah Mike Flynn guy other than rooting for Flynn given he was completely effed over by the corrupt Obama DOJ/FBI/IC … and as it appears, Obama himself.

    So Andy McCarthy is on the Ricochet Podcast to discuss Obamagate and the Flynn case in particular. During the discussion, Rob and Andy will probably highlight of the lovely Obama folks who perpetrated the Flynn unpredicated investigation (ie: CrossfireRazor), surveillance, unmasking, FBI interview set up, Special Counsel sham lying to agents case, FBI “losing” original FBI 302’s of the “false statement” interview and then taking three weeks to finalize the edited 302, Special Counsel withholding exculpatory information, Flynn’s original counsel butchering up Flynn’s FARA filing opening up Flynn to more made up Federal charges, the Special Counsel threatening Flynn’s son with prosecution to pressure a guilty plea and then withholding that information from the final plea ageement, …. I could go on …..

    So it is very odd to me that in this discussion of unprecedented Obamagate personnel malfeasance and corruption our friend Rob decides this is the appropriate time to save his most derogatory personal critiques to say of three star Army General Michael Flynn and veteran of multiple US military combat campaigns:

    “probably on the make too much”

    “probably not criminal, but kind of a sleaze”

    “has a lot of Hunter Biden like connections”

    General Flynn may have entered into business arrangements with Turkey and Russia which one could criticize given the autocratic nature of those regimes, however it should be obvious by now that any negative information on Flynn is very publicly available because Flynn’s enemies(ie: Obama) made a concerted effort to get any dirt out on Flynn, and this evidently was the worst of it. To take particular instances of financial dealing with Russia and Turkey and turn it into “kind of a sleaze” and “Hunter Biden like connections” is way over the top and offensive and something Rob may have wanted to save for the likes of Brennan, Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page, Priestap, McCord, Van Grack …. I could go on.

    But no, to “wrap up” the McCarthy interview on Flynn, Rob described General Micheal Flynn as a “kind of a sleaze”.

    I tend to save “kind of a sleaze” for those who inappropriately denigrate others.

    • #7
    • May 15, 2020, at 7:54 AM PDT
    • 9 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  8. Taras Coolidge

    @user_54742 (a.k.a. Edison Parks) — We often hear knee-jerk abuse of Trump from Rob and, evidently, this extends to people connected to Trump in Rob’s mind.

    • #8
    • May 15, 2020, at 8:50 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  9. Kevin Member

    I was recently asked to review a mistake made by another professional in my field. As I reviewed the case I imagined every way they could have been trying to do the right thing and it was just an unfortunate mishap. Listening to this podcast highlighted how hard it is to criticize our peers. McCarthy just cannot bring himself to do it and I understand the professional courtesy. This is a situation in which an outsider probably has a clearer less biased view.

    McCarthy says (in this or the last) he was proud of Barr for not politicizing Justice by not going after McCabe. This is exactly wrong. In order to get politics out you send those who bring politics into their job to jail. He is saying basically the guy who stole (McCabe) and the guy who was stolen from (Flynn) are both part of a culture of stealing so we let them both off. No, you destroy the person breaking the system. If nobody goes to jail after this is all over (and nobody will – see my first paragraph) it will happen again. And Republicans will fall all over themselves to “protect the institutions” instead of do what is needed – purge them. We need purges and resets and cleaning, not “avoiding politics”. But Republicans always bring handshakes to gun fights and wonder why they get shot. Trump talks a big game, but also lacks the discipline to see something this important through.

    • #9
    • May 15, 2020, at 2:29 PM PDT
    • 7 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  10. Rightfromthestart Coolidge

    Kevin (View Comment):

    I was recently asked to review a mistake made by another professional in my field. As I reviewed the case I imagined every way they could have been trying to do the right thing and it was just an unfortunate mishap. Listening to this podcast highlighted how hard it is to criticize our peers. McCarthy just cannot bring himself to do it and I understand the professional courtesy. This is a situation in which an outsider probably has a clearer less biased view.

    McCarthy says (in this or the last) he was proud of Barr for not politicizing Justice by not going after McCabe. This is exactly wrong. In order to get politics out you send those who bring politics into their job to jail. He is saying basically the guy who stole (McCabe) and the guy who was stolen from (Flynn) are both part of a culture of stealing so we let them both off. No, you destroy the person breaking the system. If nobody goes to jail after this is all over (and nobody will – see my first paragraph) it will happen again. And Republicans will fall all over themselves to “protect the institutions” instead of do what is needed – purge them. We need purges and resets and cleaning, not “avoiding politics”. But Republicans always bring handshakes to gun fights and wonder why they get shot. Trump talks a big game, but also lacks the discipline to see something this important through.

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters. 

    • #10
    • May 15, 2020, at 2:47 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  11. Rightfromthestart Coolidge

    I’m reminded of a story I heard many years ago of a guy who declined reelection to the NY state legislature remarking ‘ I realized that the longer I’m there the more I tended to lose my sense of outrage’ . That seems to describe many current and former DOJ denizens. 

    • #11
    • May 15, 2020, at 3:36 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  12. Stad Thatcher

    Super podcast and interview!

    Did I hear Andrew McCarthy correctly? A prosecutor can withhold exculpatory evidence to get a plea bargain, then keep that information secret afterwards? I thought all prosecutors were required to present exculpatory evidence under all circumstances.

    I’m not a fan of plea bargains, especially when they are used to railroad the innocent or people who believe they are innocent. I’m appalled when the threat of prison time is extended to family members as leverage. I’m most appalled when law enforcement makes the arrest with the force and appearance of the D-Day landing. This poisons the well of impartial jurers by damaging the perp’s reputation to the point folks believe he must be guilty if they had to resort to so much effort.

    No, my opinion of how the DOJ and Federal law enforcement has sunk pretty low, and the more I hear (about exculpatory evidence being withheld) makes it sink even lower . . .

    • #12
    • May 16, 2020, at 5:43 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  13. RufusRJones Member

    Stad (View Comment):
    I’m most appalled when law enforcement makes the arrest with the force and appearance of the D-Day landing.

    McCabe gets off on a process crime for lying and Roger Stone has to go to prison. McCabe’s lie chewed up millions of dollars of resources I don’t think Roger Stones’ chewed up any. 

     

    • #13
    • May 16, 2020, at 6:00 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  14. Taras Coolidge

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I’m most appalled when law enforcement makes the arrest with the force and appearance of the D-Day landing.

    McCabe gets off on a process crime for lying and Roger Stone has to go to prison. McCabe’s lie chewed up millions of dollars of resources I don’t think Roger Stones’ chewed up any.

     

    I remember hearing David French justify McCabe getting off scot-free while other people (read: Republicans) are prosecuted and go to prison for lying to investigators.

    • #14
    • May 16, 2020, at 8:58 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  15. RufusRJones Member

    Taras (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I’m most appalled when law enforcement makes the arrest with the force and appearance of the D-Day landing.

    McCabe gets off on a process crime for lying and Roger Stone has to go to prison. McCabe’s lie chewed up millions of dollars of resources I don’t think Roger Stones’ chewed up any.

     

    I remember hearing David French justify McCabe getting off scot-free while other people (read: Republicans) are prosecuted and go to prison for lying to investigators.

    Wow. French is so “out there”, over and over, you couldn’t put him in fiction. He wanted Deven Nunes to resign from the intelligence committee. Worthless.

     

     

     

    • #15
    • May 16, 2020, at 9:09 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  16. Taras Coolidge

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I’m most appalled when law enforcement makes the arrest with the force and appearance of the D-Day landing.

    McCabe gets off on a process crime for lying and Roger Stone has to go to prison. McCabe’s lie chewed up millions of dollars of resources I don’t think Roger Stones’ chewed up any.

     

    I remember hearing David French justify McCabe getting off scot-free while other people (read: Republicans) are prosecuted and go to prison for lying to investigators.

    Wow. French is so “out there”, over and over, you couldn’t put him in fiction. He wanted Deven Nunes to resign from the intelligence committee. Worthless.

     

    I think French is trapped in a prison of his own ego. Notice how he constantly attacks evangelicals who support Trump, arguing in effect that he is a better Christian than they are.

    At this point, he cannot admit he was wrong, so he just keeps doubling down.

    It’s like when, in the Soviet Union, socialist economics obviously failed. But it couldn’t fail, so there had to be saboteurs. Just threaten their families and, like Mike Flynn, they will confess!

     

     

     

     

    • #16
    • May 16, 2020, at 9:56 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  17. Architectus Coolidge

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Kevin (View Comment):

    I was recently asked to review a mistake made by another professional in my field. As I reviewed the case I imagined every way they could have been trying to do the right thing and it was just an unfortunate mishap. Listening to this podcast highlighted how hard it is to criticize our peers. McCarthy just cannot bring himself to do it and I understand the professional courtesy. This is a situation in which an outsider probably has a clearer less biased view.

    McCarthy says (in this or the last) he was proud of Barr for not politicizing Justice by not going after McCabe. This is exactly wrong. In order to get politics out you send those who bring politics into their job to jail. He is saying basically the guy who stole (McCabe) and the guy who was stolen from (Flynn) are both part of a culture of stealing so we let them both off. No, you destroy the person breaking the system. If nobody goes to jail after this is all over (and nobody will – see my first paragraph) it will happen again. And Republicans will fall all over themselves to “protect the institutions” instead of do what is needed – purge them. We need purges and resets and cleaning, not “avoiding politics”. But Republicans always bring handshakes to gun fights and wonder why they get shot. Trump talks a big game, but also lacks the discipline to see something this important through.

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    • #17
    • May 16, 2020, at 9:47 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  18. RufusRJones Member

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Kevin (View Comment):

    I was recently asked to review a mistake made by another professional in my field. As I reviewed the case I imagined every way they could have been trying to do the right thing and it was just an unfortunate mishap. Listening to this podcast highlighted how hard it is to criticize our peers. McCarthy just cannot bring himself to do it and I understand the professional courtesy. This is a situation in which an outsider probably has a clearer less biased view.

    McCarthy says (in this or the last) he was proud of Barr for not politicizing Justice by not going after McCabe. This is exactly wrong. In order to get politics out you send those who bring politics into their job to jail. He is saying basically the guy who stole (McCabe) and the guy who was stolen from (Flynn) are both part of a culture of stealing so we let them both off. No, you destroy the person breaking the system. If nobody goes to jail after this is all over (and nobody will – see my first paragraph) it will happen again. And Republicans will fall all over themselves to “protect the institutions” instead of do what is needed – purge them. We need purges and resets and cleaning, not “avoiding politics”. But Republicans always bring handshakes to gun fights and wonder why they get shot. Trump talks a big game, but also lacks the discipline to see something this important through.

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    • #18
    • May 16, 2020, at 11:22 PM PDT
    • Like
  19. kedavis Member

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    • #19
    • May 17, 2020, at 3:46 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  20. Arahant Member

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    For most people, the universe is their mirror. They see in others what they are. I think it speaks well of Andy that he sees others this way, even if it is not the reality.

    • #20
    • May 17, 2020, at 4:03 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  21. kedavis Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    For most people, the universe is their mirror. They see in others what they are. I think it speaks well of Andy that he sees others this way, even if it is not the reality.

    I guess it could make him a good person, but maybe it means he shouldn’t be working in those areas any more. Perhaps not even opining on them, really. We shouldn’t have to rely on other sources to remember that people he continues to praise, are actually crooks or worse.

    • #21
    • May 17, 2020, at 4:12 AM PDT
    • Like
  22. RufusRJones Member

    kedavis (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    I’m not tracking it perfectly. I can’t remember all of these names. I think he tries to stick to the legal facts and not be too personal about it because he knows them. I remember he took at least one or two hard shots of these people on TV. 

    His recent podcast interviews have been excellent. The last National Review one was really good.

    • #22
    • May 17, 2020, at 4:29 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  23. Stad Thatcher

    Taras (View Comment):
    At this point, he cannot admit he was wrong, so he just keeps doubling down.

    That’s too bad. In person, he’s a nice guy. Too bad his inability to critically analyze events around him makes him less desirable as someone you want to get to know . . .

    • #23
    • May 17, 2020, at 5:54 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  24. Taras Coolidge

    Stad (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):
    At this point, he cannot admit he was wrong, so he just keeps doubling down.

    That’s too bad. In person, he’s a nice guy. Too bad his inability to critically analyze events around him makes him less desirable as someone you want to get to know . . .

    Note to Confused Readers: The “he” @stad is referring to is David French, not Andrew McCarthy!

    • #24
    • May 17, 2020, at 9:26 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  25. Architectus Coolidge

    kedavis (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    I can’t say that I have seen him go back to trusting the same individuals again and again. He once talked of Comey as a straight shooter, but not since (that I have heard). For the FISA court, he assumed that they were simply lied to and duped by those making the case for warrants, but has since realized that they were complicit in the charade as well. He is now universally tough on the court and its continued existence. 

    • #25
    • May 17, 2020, at 9:41 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  26. Al French of Damascus Moderator

    Architectus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    I can’t say that I have seen him go back to trusting the same individuals again and again. He once talked of Comey as a straight shooter, but not since (that I have heard). For the FISA court, he assumed that they were simply lied to and duped by those making the case for warrants, but has since realized that they were complicit in the charade as well. He is now universally tough on the court and its continued existence.

    He has for sure given up on Comey.

    • #26
    • May 17, 2020, at 10:31 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  27. kedavis Member

    Al French of Damascus (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Architectus (View Comment):

    Rightfromthestart (View Comment):

    Yes I’ve commented before that Andy’s old school ties are very strong, there’s a long list of sleazeballs from Fitzgerald to Lynch and others who Andrew described to us as straight shooters.

    To Andrew McCarthy’s credit, I have seen him give the benefit of doubt to some he has worked with over the years, and admit his error when facts come out about how they have abused their positions. His honest surprise at needing to reassess his opinions of old contacts, but willingness to do it, is refreshing in a way.

    I agree with this completely. I’ve seen him send a pretty strong message like this a few times on Fox News.

    But doesn’t he go back to giving the same ne’er-do-wells the benefit of the doubt again, until the NEXT time they do something outrageous? That’s the impression I’ve gotten. He never seems able to conclude that some of the people he worked around or with, are BAD, and maybe they always were and he just didn’t – or wouldn’t – see it.

    I can’t say that I have seen him go back to trusting the same individuals again and again. He once talked of Comey as a straight shooter, but not since (that I have heard). For the FISA court, he assumed that they were simply lied to and duped by those making the case for warrants, but has since realized that they were complicit in the charade as well. He is now universally tough on the court and its continued existence.

    He has for sure given up on Comey.

    Didn’t he say just in the “larger” Ricochet Podcast that he still looked favorably upon Comey? I thought I saw someone mention that, elsewhere.

    • #27
    • May 18, 2020, at 4:20 PM PDT
    • Like
  28. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Thanks for this interview.

    One request/plea/suggestion/entreaty: @roblong, please, please stop using the expression “what’s the tick tock” and its variants. It’s horrible and no one knows what it means.

    • #28
    • May 24, 2020, at 10:39 AM PDT
    • 2 likes