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This week, a retrospective of TV detectives inspired by a Tweet and begun on that other podcast. Then, the curious media coverage around Kim Jong Un’s sister at the Olympics, Black Panther is here to save the world, the guys tell you what they are currently watching, and for the kids in our audience, a discussion about long departed talk show host Merv Griffin.
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Merv Griffin actually hosted The Tonight Show during the transition between Jack Paar and Carson. He was one of many guest hosts that was considered for the post and lost out to Johnny. But NBC was sufficiently impressed to reward him with a daytime talk show. Unfortunately that lasted just one season.
Two other things: It was a gentleman named Dick Wesson who was the voice of Quinn Martin Productions, not William Conrad.
Avid listener here. What is the title of the intro music with the guitar?
It’s the theme to Kill Bill. It’s a composition by a Japanese artist named Tomoyasu Hotei and its English title is Battle Without Honor Or Humanity.
I used to get home from work at like 8:30 am and I used to love to watch all the old detective shows being re-run on A&E.
I really liked Banacek, because it was rarely a murder mystery – it seemed more realistic for a PI to be involved in insurance cases, than a murder case where the police would brook no interference. Remington Steele was also a favorite.
While its great to discuss old time TV – What do you think of the state of the art detectives? Maybe of the last decade or so?
Castle, CSI, NCIS, Chuck? (because of netflix), Rizzoli and Isles, Lucifer? Maybe going back for Veronica Mars?
TV has certainly changed from the classics … More minorities, more scandalous plots, less episodic. While they’re now less “Preachy” than they used to be “Major Crimes/The Closer” being an exception – they all have an episode or 2 where they fall into it.
As for the good stuff to watch right now – I recently finished “Altered Carbon” (10 episodes in the first season) and would recommend it. Its a fantastic thought experiment on a dystopian future where even death can be cheated for a price.
You forgot the great Peter Gunn, Magnum, P. I., and Miami Vice.
Rockford was a doofus.
Murder, She Wrote was a copy of many golden age and even recent British mysteries, many of which were set in villages of 2,000 souls and had about murder a month.
I wish you would talk about Comrade Detective. I liked it and found it wonderfully weird until the last episode, which fell flat for me.
I too greatly enjoyed Comrade Detective and make a point of recommending it to lefty friends. Also, I’m watching Altered Carbon right now, and as a Blade Runner fan I like the similarities. Miami Vice is way up at the top of my favorites list, as is True Detective season 1. Everyone’s going gaga here in northwest Arkansas right now as much of True Detective season 3 is going to be shot here. Then, of course, there’s McGarnagle, the greatest detective show that never was.
https://youtu.be/GePCF8kDhhg
I liked Banacek, too. His mysteries were actual mysteries in the Sherlock Holmes vein, like the one where someone stole a room-sized computer.
I’m amazed that in the discussion about Merv Griffin that no one mentioned Jeopardy, which he co-created and composed the theme for.
About, maybe, a month ago, I was surfing through Amazon Prime Video and ran across Merv Griffin, which weren’t straight shows, but highlights.
I had grown up encountering him on TV, but whenever I tried watching him, I didn’t find myself interested. I decided to watch some of his old shows to see if my older self would see something I hadn’t as a kid. And I didn’t. But I did watch quite a bit of him, because of many of the personalities he did interview, including Richard Nixon before he became president, and Gerald Ford after he left office, but had hopes of another run.
More on that. But it was mildly interesting to watch some of his attempted innovations with the talk show format. On his early shows he would actually have guests, or maybe they were co-hosts, sit at the desk with him, which would have two microphones. There would still be guests on the couch.
Richard Pryor was a recurring guest in the 1960’s. His comedy then was safe and he hadn’t become edgy yet. But then Merv’s style was different, but never edgy and his show reflected that.
His interview with Nixon was stilted, mostly because Nixon was never one to relax in that setting. He was being coy about running in 1968.
As Merv moved into the seventies, his dress became less formal, and you see the worst of 1970’s fashion not only on his show, but in how he dressed as well. The beginning of his shows were somewhat different. He often brought a guest out at the very beginning of a show, and instead of sitting down, they would remain standing for the first segment, and he would do his interview with the guest. I suppose he gets credit for trying, but really those differences didn’t impress me.
His interview with Gerald Ford (the one I watched, anyway) occurred in 1978 or 1979, with Ford acting coy about the Republican nomination. He wouldn’t run in the primaries, but he was available if the Republicans wanted to draft him.
From what I read about him, he was progressive, and Ford was his kind of Republican. On the other hand, he was personal friends with the Reagans.
Griffin made a lot of money creating and producing game shows. Two games shows that are still around are Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune.
Many of his guests were known at the time, but no one remembers them. What young person knows who Phyllis Diller was (I don’t find her comedy all that funny).
Rob Long had it right about him. No one really remembers him, and as a personality he’s been forgotten. His only lasting legacy in entertainment has been two of his game shows.
His public persona was of a very nice guy, and apparently he had a good relationship with his ex-wife. On the other hand, there were two lawsuits, both settled, and both by men, claiming sexual harassment. I wonder if he were still alive if more such dirt would come out about him, given today’s #MeToo movement. Maybe he wasn’t a nice guy after all.
I’m going by memory here, but I read an interview of Conrad during his Cannon days of his being turned down for the Gunsmoke television role. He wasn’t obese, just a little rolly polly, and he pointed out that he could still fit the role.
Rob’s comment about Cannon riding a horse is a little ironic. James Arness was lean, but still a big man. And when he rode a horse, with his long legs hanging down the way they did, you wondered if the horse would finally just collapse.
I didnt forget, they’re too old. I was asking about the more recent detectives. Peter Gunn, I have never seen. Magnum PI and Miami Vice I have only seen a few episodes of. (I grew up on a farm, and only had cable intermittently during the 90s)
Another detective series that went unmentioned was “Holmes and YoYo” – it was a gimmick show, about a robot cop detective. (late 70s) it only had 1 season, but it was a favorite of mine because it combined Sci-fi with a detective show, 2 of my favorite things.
@tonyfrazier Merv’s accomplishment where detailed in the podcast, and marveled how he’s disappeared from the pop culture, even though his shows have not. (wheel of fortune and Jeopardy)
As far as the #metoo stuff dredging up old scandals, my shocked face has been retired, its no longer required. When I heard of Marlon Brando and Richard Pyror. that was it for me.
Regarding the group’s comments on television PI’s, maybe The Rockford Files had an original twist. The classic American PI was probably modeled by Phillip Marlowe and Sam Spade. And the television character who best portrayed that genre was Peter Gunn, though Gunn is a boy scout compared to them.
Rockford comported with that stereotype by always being close to broke and getting slugged usually from behind. But he did live out of a trailer instead of working out of an office where his rent was behind, not to mention not having a secretary who he doesn’t pay on time either (after all, he had an answering machine). Yet his personality was actually less edgy, still a nice guy, though you never thought of him as a boy scout.
I loved that show. So much so, that I’m reluctant to watch it now, afraid that my older self would be disappointed. I have been with other shows I’ve revisited (though not all; for example Columbo stands the test of time).
I liked Rockford Files, because it cast the character in a realistic setting – unlike most shows, that dont. I am specifically thinking of a movie called “Quicksilver” about a bike messenger in NYC. Who happens to live in multi-million dollar loft. Not really since the “Honeymooners” did a TV show depict someone of modest means living modestly. Married with children was the next show in this mold, but it would be nearly 10 years after Rockford.
I am also reluctant to go back to the oldies, I have downloaded a lot of the Macmillan and Wife shows, but havent watched them yet. I wonder if my standards have changed so much since I’ve last seen them (25 years ago?) … Like “Friends” who got onto netflix for the first time and all these first time viewers got epically triggered by it.
I would say The Andy Griffith Show qualifies. The Kramdens, of The Honeymooners were of more modest means than Andy Taylor’s family (though Andy Taylor was more modest than Ralph Kramden).
The Honeymooners was too comedic, too vaudeville, the characters too formulaic, and didn’t have a realistic feel that shows like Andy Griffith brought to television. With Andy Griffith, the comedy was secondary, with The Honeymooners, comedy was the point, with the lower class setting being secondary.
Fair point, I have never seen the Andy Griffith show – other than a few clips about Ron Howard – the only child star not to grow up screw up. It did seem nice.
The Honeymooners where from a completely different era – I agree it was very much like a stage performance, than what we would think of today, but the basic formula has worked – even to this day for sitcoms. The shallow stereotypical characters continue into even the very modern Big Bang Theory. I was hoping that the half hour sitcom would end as a format – as most shows are now binge-watched – the actual length of the episode will matter less – but a longer episode would give time and space for broader character development.
I was thinking it would be interesting to revive the longer episode programs format like Colombo and Macmillan, which are 90 minute episodes. (revive the format – not the shows)
Jonah mentioned that IRONSIDE had “great music”. Well yeah, it was composed and conducted by Quincy Jones.
I can think of three child stars that managed to make it to adulthood well adjusted. Shirley Temple, Annette Funicello, and yes Ron Howard. Just about every other former child star has tales of woe, and a messed up life to prove it.
I highly recommend you watch at least some episodes of The Andy Griffith Show. It’s clean TV that managed to age well. Contrast that to, for example, The Waltons or Little House on the Prarie which didn’t. Clean family television that is ageless is very rare. The Andy Griffith Show is actually a spinoff of Danny Thomas’s Make Rooom for Daddy, which did not age well, but was very popular at the time.
The British are masters of that format. Between the three main streaming services, Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon Prime Video, you can find a lot of foreign content doing that.
American television, and before that B movies, had specialized cowboy westerns from the 1930’s to the mid to late 1960’s before it died out.
The Brits have their mysteries and police procedurals, and that genre continues to this day, never having died out.
I used to love watching some of those 80’s detective shows with my dad – particularly Magnum P.I. and Simon & Simon. Those shows in particular still manage to charm me, mostly the characters (like Jim Rockford) were realistically odd.
One of my favorite scenes is from an early S&S episode: Rick and AJ are investigating a disappearance and they break into the subject’s apartment to look for clues. The cops are tipped off that there’s a burglary in progress and they burst in, guns drawn on our heroes. AJ flashes his P.I. card and yells “It’s okay, we’re private detectives!” The cops lower their guns and don’t arrest them.
When that episode aired, I accepted it; now I just laugh.
Honorable mention to Sledge Hammer and all of it’s ridiculousness. My mom hated that show because she didn’t get that they were joking.
I highly recommend Peter Gunn, it can be downloaded through Amazon Prime. I was too young to watch it in its original run (my parents deemed it too adult for me and my siblings), but it was rerun when I was in high school, and I caught a few episodes. The music is amazing (Henry Mancini), and the writing holds up pretty well, if you can accept the private eye drama conventions of the time. Peter Gunn had a three year run, with 38 episodes in each season, and I am working my way through it a few episodes at a time. So far, there have been very few clunker episodes. I am surprised at the tightness of the writing, and the show is beautifully photographed . It is astonishing when you think about what it must have been like to shoot 38 episodes a year, with many location shoots. The attention to detail is pretty impressive, too, Pete actually cleans his snub nose .38, and even reloads it, and nobody shoots more rounds than their revolver holds.
I am familiar with the music – the Peter Gunn Theme anyway. 38 episodes sounds like a killer schedule – but Wikipedia has them at 30 minutes. I had never seen a detective show shoe-horned into a sitcom format. I was thinking of signing up for an amazon membership.
The podcast talked about all the old time shows – I had hoped to get a discussion going on the more recent detectives – what do you think of the ‘state of the art’ shows …
Peter Gunn is a straight up detective show-no sitcom aspects whatsoever.
I cut the cord a while ago, I haven’t watched any new stuff except for Comrade Detective.
Jonah has a whip smart wit.
But can he actually buy pants? Meta-hilarious to listen to the Bombfell ad followed by Jonah’s discussion of his clothes shopping torment.
In terms of modern detective / PI shows I’ll add my vote for Veronica Mars. Do not let the young, “cute” central character create a negative prejudice before you watch: the show is pretty dark. Her voiceover dialog is rather hardboiled. Season 1 & 3 are the most interesting as a whole, Season 2 is less even but several individual episodes are outstanding.
I was also impressed with Season1 of “The Expanse” and I’m definitely not a SciFi fan.
I’ve recently rewatched some Rockford Files shows: while neither as fast paced as modern shows nor as complicated in the plotlines (definitely Episodic not Arc-based), it’s still entertaining. As is Colombo.
On the other hand, I’ve also stumbled across Miami Vice and it seems less impressive than when it was new. While I readily acknowledge that it was a major milestone in the evolution of TV dramas…. it doesn’t seem to hold up well for me.
Unrelated…. I have to second Podhoretz’s recommendation of “The Good Place”. Well written, clever & very enjoyable. But like many modern shows, you MUST watch it from the very beginning. It is not episodic and you won’t understand it starting in the middle. While it has a long way to go to break into my personal top-3 comedy list, it’s definitely in my top 10.
Those Gunsmoke radio shows were before my time, but I have enjoyed listening to many of them as podcasts. Marshall Dillon is a superb roll model and always does the right thing in a tough world where calling someone a liar or a cheat could get you killed. It surprised me that he could be a loyal friend of the Indians if they behaved (and they usually did) and that he shot dead fewer villains than I had been led to believe was necessary in the Wild West. It is just as likely that justice deals with the bad guy by killing him in a stampede or a burning building.
The radio versions of Paladin are also enjoyable, and the hero is more of a ladies’ man.
These old conservative all American podcasts could be added to the ever growing Ricochet play list. Perhaps it would attract some new listeners to the site.
If you enjoy vintage audio entertainment Archive.org has a pretty good collection of old radio shows. As a disclaimer I will add that the quality varies widely and it is, technically, piracy. But most of the run of Gunsmoke is there and an excellent series called The Six Shooter with Jimmy Stewart.
Detective shows today are kinda meh… especially as they get heavy on the procedure – DNA, bank records, phone records, etc. A good series from the BBC is Jonathan Creek. It’s about a guy who designs illusions for magicians.
I agree, Veronica Mars maybe about teens but its not a after school special. I was surprised by how dark it was. (I only saw it on netflix, about the time the movie was being jump started) I missed it in its first run. My favorite detectives of the modern times is “Castle” although it jumped the shark at the end of season 6, and then went on to have a terrible “amnesia” story arc in the next season.
I was pretty disappointed in “The Expanse” and only watched a couple of episodes of it. I wanted it to look more like “Blade runner” or “Altered Carbon” it was dystopian, but drab. If you’re going to do a dystopian future at least do a vibrant colorful world where you’re not visually sucked into a depression in every frame of it. “Dark Matter” is a far better series. I think “Dark Matter” is what “Firefly” may have been in a second season.
I’ve seen interviews with Rob Thomas, the creator of VMars. IIRC, his original vision of the show was for it to take place almost 5-7 years after the Lily Kane murder, with the central character being in her early 20s, not late teen years. It would have been even darker as a result of Veronica’s (& her father’s) extended isolation…. but no network wanted to pick it up, as most had their “mid-20s demo” slot filled. At the network’s request, he made his main character a younger (it’s why she looks SO young in the flashback scenes of the pilot – they were shot for the ‘sales-pitch’ short treatment, along with the Motel stakeout opening scene).
The movie was entertaining but not outstanding – I feel like they tried to cram EVERYONE in, rather than sticking to the more original, stripped-down feel of the show.
Since I’m not a big SciFi person, I suspect it’s why I liked The Expanse – it felt like a gritty detective show that just happened to be set in the future… although I also liked Blade Runner, probably for the same reason ;)
I liked the movie, it was a fan driven project so it was an essentially a character check in. A way for the fans to see how each of the characters evolved since the end of the TV Series. I would like a similar project done for Chuck.
A gritty detective series done set in any time line is fine, but it should be visually appealing. I found it to be so drab. If they didnt like a ‘bladerunner’ motif, how about Dick Tracy? How about a future set Dick Tracy as Raymond Chandler would have written it. Perhaps with a Peter Gunny blue/jazz sound track.
Kind of off-topic compared to the other comments, but, was there another joke actually cut out? A joke after the one about the garment-district blouse makers and the factory fire “next week?” Or were they talking about THAT joke possibly being edited out, for some reason?
In 1988, I lavished in Merv’s Empire. Merv had a hotel on Paradise Island in the Bahamas, Nassau. 1988. Back then it was just a big hotel/casino, on a killer beach. Note that I was staying at a much cheaper hotel nearby, but we’d walk through the casino on the way to the beach.
It’s something else entirely now. It’s become exponentially larger. Perhaps not more in charger, though.
http://www.atlantisbahamas.com/