When I first began to read political science, the first book I managed to get hold of stated in the first paragraph, "If you can hold a piece of land, it is yours. If you cannot hold the piece of land, it is not yours."

This seemed to make sense to me, and I think it still holds true, in spite of the UN and International Law. 

I've always understood that the Jews have always yearned to return to Jerusalem since they were driven out by the Romans.

A long time ago, I first heard the Jewish prayer: "Next year in Jerusalem!" It moved me that a people were so faithful in their love of their country, and their traditions, and still wanted to go back, even after almost two thousand years.

 Moses did a great job in establishing a "story" that so united his people: the story of the Exodus from Egypt, and fighting for the "Promised Land" of Israel.

Agreed, Stephen! I've found it so. It is bringing stuff out of me I haven't had an opportunity to visit for a long time. I spent years studying comparative religion, but very few people share that interest. Fortunately for me, my new, wonderful, Canadian husband does. He was a United Church minister for the first five years of his career, before becoming a psychologist, another interest of mine. My studies of comparative religions was with the thrust, what is a mature human being? Next question, what kind of people do the different religious systems produce? I have found it fascinating. :-) 

You are so correct in that assumption, NC! Muhammad was a trader from Mecca who took his wife's camel trains all over the middle east. He studied Judaism and Christianity, and also was a Semite, as were his people, the Arabs. 

In my opinion, he was a military genius. He took the story of Moses molding a slave people into a strong, united, military force able to take over land for themselves, and gave his people a Holy Book to help them do the same. 

I would agree with your system of judgment, 10 cents. True Christians, who have a personal relationship with God, are the most delightful people around. They reflect the kindliness and compassionate concern for others, demonstrated by Jesus. 

I surmise that most Muslims concentrate on the description of Allah as forgiving, merciful, and compassionate, and ignore the injunctions from Muhammad to fight for Allah and his Prophet. 

Yes, I am a battler, 10 cents! I love debate. I find it develops my own thinking, and I can learn so much from others. This is what I have found so valuable about Ricochet.

 Aren't politics and religion the most interesting topics, NC, with sex coming a close third? :-)

Islam is primarily political. Is it being judgmental to point out the problem with anyone taking the Qur'an literally and wanting to kill infidels as a result of listening to Allah, through Muhammad, commanding them to do so?

I have been suggesting for years, that everyone reads the Qur'an for themselves, especially Suras (chapters) 8, The Spoils (of War and how they are to be divided), and 9, Repentance (which traditional commentators regard as a continuation of The Spoils).

Anyone who believes that this is a Holy Book, and says that they have to obey all of it implicitly, without question, presents a problem to modern civilization.

Exactly, Pseudo! It would all depend on whether you were under the blade, or delivering it. 

Love it, NC! Here is the link to Sting's own youtube download.

That's exactly what I mean. The allure of the desert, the wonderful middle eastern music, the music of Arabic, especially when sung! 

Islam has such similar beliefs to Judaism and Christianity, except for the injunctions from Allah, through Muhammad, to create the House of Peace on earth by the use of force. Allah is forgiving of sins, and merciful and compassionate, and rewarding of His followers in the afterlife.

I can't see a way for Muslims to deny the Qur'an, and the claim by Muhammad that it is the direct word of Allah, if they believe it fundamentally.

If they could accept that Muhammad was a warrior, who united the Arabs, and place him in history, it might help.

The question comes out of the report, FC. I asked it to promote debate, as it has done.

I have a friend like you, here in Canada. She, too, has good friends who are Muslims and can't believe any questioning of Islam.

If I emigrated to China or Russia, I certainly wouldn`t expect either of those countries to change to become like me. And if I became a citizen of either country, I would expect to try to become like the people of my new, chosen country.

In fact, that is what I did when I moved to Canada and became a citizen: I WANTED to assimilate. I AM a CANADIAN first and foremost, and I LOVE this country with a passion. I expect this of others.

Like everything else, it all depends on the viewpoint, GFL!

It's too bad Islam has the violent injunctions. I grew up in a time when Lawrence of Arabia was still in my mother`s living memory, and all the mystic and romantic visions around that.

Rudolph Valentino starred in the film, The Sheik: of Araby  and had women swooning over that whole, romantic image.

Here is Nelson Eddy singing, Òne Alone`, from Desert Song 1937. I challenge any woman to listen to this and remain unaffected by the dream of an Arab Sheik so affected by her. :-) I have to admit it `sends`me.  

When the beautiful architecture of the Muslim world is admired, and all the wonderful artifacts from Persia, it is difficult not to to fall under the spell of the middle east. And to listen to the Qur`an recited in Arabic is to be transported to another world. It is such a melodious language. 

How I would love to be able to admire it all, without any remembrance of the other side.

They are not quite "two peas in a pod", FD!

The Christian God, whether one believes that Jesus is the incarnation of that God on earth or not, is portrayed as a loving parent who, like any loving parent, wants all we children to love and support each other. Also, the teaching encourages us to grow up and "be the best that I can be", as the hymn sings. Meaning, develop our talents and use them to contribute to society.

Allah, who is said, in the Exordium at the beginning of the Qur'an, to be "the Compassionate, the Merciful", also exhorted the faithful to, "make war on them (unbelievers) until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." Sura 8: 40. 

Not two peas in a pod!

"10 cents

Mum,

You do make a son proud with your clear to the point writing. That asking a person to read the Qur'an could be seen as Islamophobic is  laughable. Bernard Lewis, the great Middle Eastern scholar, says that Jesus is to Christianity as the Qur'an is to Islam. It is that important to Islam."

Lewis, of course, is quite right in what he says, my boy. ("My boy" is a term of endearment for anyone who might take exception to my using it.)

Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of Allah, given through Muhammad, as he "channeled it from the Angel Gabriel. So anyone who claims the Qur'an as their Holy Book as the direct word of Allah, directly to that individual, has to obey the injunctions in it to "kill the infidel and apostate".

I am very sorry to have to say, that is anyone were to tell me that they believe the Qur'an fundamentally, I would be very wary of them.

Not all Muslims do believe, any more than Jews or Christians believe the injunctions in the Bible stone people to death, but I would like an assurance. 

To quote what is happening in Canada again, (I can hear all those American groans! :-)), our Immigration Laws have been revised to accept only those people who have hopes of finding a job in Canada. It is considered "unfair" to accept people who won't be able to integrate into our society. We have had too many people claiming to be doctors and professors in their homelands, driving taxis here in Canada.

The guide book for immigrants has also been revised to make it quite clear that people who come to Canada must abide by our social norms of equality for women, etc. People may practice their religion freely, but it is against the law to incite to violence. This is specifically there for fundamentalist Muslims because there has been so many "honour killings", and foiled terrorist attacks, all in the name of Islam. 

Contd. from #74:

All of church history is ours. The Christian Faith did not spring into being at the time of the Reformation in the 16th century. It started in the first century with Christ. All that has happened since then is to some extent a description of us. The church with all of its ups and downs, its times of glory and its hours of sad despair: these speak to us of ourselves.  ...

If we are catholic in this sense, then our outlook should be one of love and generosity of spirit to all Christians of whatever denomination. Wherever Jesus Christ is honoured as Lord, there we rejoice.

I was given this book as an Elder, and conducted Study Groups on it. I also conducted a Study Group in my church, the First Presbyterian Church, Edmonton, on the latest Catechism as that was being developed.

As you can see, Christians are all equal. No one denomination is "better", nor should any even be considered too "different", by any other. 

Of course, they have had their differences in the past, and the history is not too pleasant at times, in reality. But this is the idealized theory.

The question in the title of this post was taken from the context of the report on the conference, Zafar. The Muslims are reported to be demanding that Islam be stated to be the equal of Christianity in Germany.

Being a Presbyterian in Canada Today by Stephen A. Hayes, which is the textbook used by the Presbyterian Church of Canada for Inquirers, Elders, Confirmation Classes, and Study Groups, states, as follows:

2. We are Catholic

"Catholic" does not mean "Roman Catholic". The word catholic means universal, or world-wide. To belong to the catholic church is to say that we belong to the church as it is found around the world, and throughout the ages. All of church history is ours. 

Contd. below: