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To mark this historical day, we’ve assembled a panel that we think reflects all sides of the new Trump administration — a mashup of the Ricochet Podcast and Need To Know with Charen and Nordlinger with a dash of Victor Davis Hanson thrown in for flavoring. It’s a bracing conversation that really gets into the weeds on the election and what may lie ahead.
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You’re going to have to give me some examples of what you’re referring to. I can’t answer this in the abstract.
What is the big problem anyway? Mr. Nordlinger is spitting blood and so mad that he cannot or will not articulate his complaints against Trump (at least on this podcast, though on NTW he has stated somewhat his objections, though some are MSM regurge, read same as done to Bush, McCain, Romney, et al) and some are mine as well, the hot mic “grab” and the Cruz remarks, which I think were lit when “someone” attacked Melania, which might have got me mad, say what you want about me, but you attack the mother of my children somebody is getting bloody. Other than that what has Trump done that is worthy of hatred. So he not as smart as Jimmy Carter or as articulate as Mario Cuomo. I did not think much of Trump in the beginning, multiple divorces, bankruptcies, these are bigger issues to me than his mouth. I work around men with chests who drive armored MRAPs and fly attack helicopters and very few are careful about language when it comes to men or women. I am a Christian so my ears get burnt pretty good, but it is just words. I can forgive it because I weigh it against the other qualities. Loyalty, patriotism, hard work, sacrifice. The Apostle PETER was brash, temperamental, even violent until he got in “office” and still got schooled a couple times later. Remember “Rocky” starting out, a brawler, a leg breaker, Mick called him a “Bum!!” he was picked only for his nickname to fight a champion. Maybe with a good trainer and family around Trump could be a contender. P.S. I think Jay and Mona are great I just hope they can have the ability to let their hatred go.
We still “go down this road” EVERY DAY with the NeverTrumpers. But there is no accountability for people who voted for McMullin?
NeverTrumpers: We will continue to be the arbiters of conservative standards. But don’t mention that we voted for an erratic non-conservative.
At least Trump fights the liberal media instead of pandering to them every day.
You won. Maybe find a new road now? This one is well tread and leads to a dead end.
Blue Yeti: I actually didn’t vote for Trump. I left the Prez line blank. But I’ll defend Trump and Trump voters most of the time.
Your characterization of McMulln’s tweet doesn’t say what you think it does.
At best it’s vague to your point.
Is McMullin saying that he and Shaun King have a shared value of the police acting in a judicious and professional manner? To only use deadly force when necessary? I’ll bet it does. Do they have a shared value that black men get pulled over more often than white men, and is something we need to discuss? Maybe McMullin heard of such stories listening to Senator Tim Scott. I know that I have heard them from him. I’ll bet it does. Is he trying to build a dialogue that allows him and other conservatives to persuade Mr. King? I’ll bet it does.
Unless you think we should never speak to folks on the other side of an issue, that tweet doesn’t mean much.
You asked BD1’s point, I clarified it as best I can. It is Mona (along with Jay), not BD1, who has suggested we are tarred by anyone who supported the person we chose to pull the lever for given our options.
The notion that you would go down this road yourself @blueyeti, is illuminating. I had absolutely no opinion of you before. I now do.
@peterrobinson
The position of your employees with regard to the members is that contributors can insult members with impunity. Is the site you wished to build?
Jay has spent a year and a half railing against Trump on NTK. During that time he has acknowledged and rejected calls to understand what motivates Trump supporters. He has stated explicitly and persistently that he finds Trump and his supporters to be of a piece. I assume that you have been engineering his podcast (and listening during that time), and therefore I assume you know this (I listened to every minute of every one until about September of this year). In light of this extreme persistence, calling Trump Hitler bears serious ramifications with regard to many Ricochet members.
Your denial of this is a serious problem for you and Ricochet.
@arioironstar
Could you lay off of Blue Yeti for a bit? You got the point across, no need to go after him with both barrels. You do realize that he’s the technical guru behind this site and several Hoover Institution productions (like Uncommon Knowledge), so he’s Peter & VDH’s co-worker, not their subordinate? His goal is keeping the site running more than any political goal, and frankly he does not deserve this kind of attack. Trying to bring his supposed boss into the argument is just low and classless.
I do think that Jay needs to be better at recognizing that Donald Trump is not his supporters and vice versa. Fortunately, he does not do that very often. He also was apocalyptic regarding the speech, which was unwarranted. He sounded like he was forced to be there. You made your point.
However, it is definitely not Yeti season, so please hunt elsewhere.
Ha! Your contention is that Jay “insulted the audience.” He did nothing of the sort. He disagrees with the President and by extension, his supporters (let’s for the moment leave aside the delicious irony of supporters who are bent out of shape at criticism leveled at a person who insults EVERYONE who disagrees with him without impunity). Jay is not personalizing it and he’s not speaking to you. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.
And sure, @peterrobinson, please admonish me!
Blue Yeti – I appreciate all the work you do at Ricochet. Even if you voted for Evan McMullin.
I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s fine to talk to me about this stuff.
And @max is the tech guru, not me.
He was not on the ballot in California.
Yes, it’s complicated, isn’t it? All the more reason the likes of Mona should not be applying the blanket castigation she does for difficult choices made from limited options.
I care not whether @peterrobinson admonishes you. But as the founder, it seems important he is aware that the message is that there is no code of conduct, even implicit, for contributors. To me this is absurd.
Whether @peterrobinson is your peer, employee, or employer is immaterial. He is the founder of this site.
Thanks to Ricochet for assembling this group. It was nice to have the conflicting viewpoints shared and debated. One point that I wish would have been confronted was this; If you didn’t vote for Trump, you de facto supported Hillary. It was a binary election with only two possible winners. Mona, Jay, and James need to be called out on this and challenged.
Jay Nordlinger never ” rejected calls to understand what motivates Trump supporters.” In fact, he’s spent more time in the field covering this electionand talking to voters than almost anyone else reading this. Understanding is not equivalent to agreeing with them, which is his right. Finally, Jay Nordlinger has never, ever called Donald J. Trump “Hitler.” Did not happen. I guess that’s what we now call an “alternate fact.”
I feel like we’re going around in circles here now, so this will likely be my final comment on this thread: You don’t agree with Jay. You don’t like listening to Jay. Totally legit. On this site, and on this podcast, we try to present a variety of views on issues and events. No one is forcing you to listen or read any of what’s presented here. Jay has been consistent in his position on Trump for upwards of a year. You said you stopped listening to him months ago. Why are you still arguing with what he says?
In isolation, I would have no problem with Jay’s rant against Trump. Truth is, I hated Trump’s inaugural address. It was artless and inappropriate. Moreover, I am not bent out of shape by Andrew Klavan, Ben Shapiro, James Lileks, or anyone else who excoriates Trump. But Jay has spent 20 months making clear that what he says about Trump applies Trump’s supporters. Even James recoiled at Jay’s insult, and he was right to. (An example a gave previously, had you cared.)
You didn’t leave anything aside. My objection to Jay’s contemptible behavior does not preclude me from objecting to Trump’s contemptible behavior. I am not in a position to understand your self-righteous assumptions.
Your response is childish, to be honest, and grossly ignores Jay’s behavior on the podcast. I used the word petulant before on this thread to describe his demeanor (remember when he responded to Peter about his reason for being on the podcast?) more than once, and I think it is a good descriptor.
Did you not hear Jay refer to the speech using the well known phrase “Beer Hall” and later refer to Trump supporters as of the same fascistic mindset?
Mona is of a similar position to Jay when it comes to Trump supporters*, but is much more respectful in her tone and diction.
*I didn’t vote for Trump (I didn’t vote for President at all)
Jay has never, ever called Trump Hitler? On two separate occasions on this podcast, he was confronted with the implications of his characterization (“beer hall”, “America first”). He was happy to own it. Do you have ears to hear? This aside from his comments on NTK.
Jay has spent more time than anyone listening to this talking to voters? If so, no evidence of an open mind. Absurd.
My distress for Peter.
@benjaminglaser He was describing the speech, not the man. But hear what you want to hear.
We’re going around in circles here, so I’ll end by saying this: Jay’s position has been consistent for a long time. The shows and the posts are clearly labeled as to who is on them and what the topic is. Podcast listening is optional. If you see someone you don’t agree with listed on a show, you are free to ignore it. If enough people do that, we’ll get the message — the market will have spoken. So far, that has not happened (quite the opposite, in fact).
If Blue Yeti chooses to defend Jay, I feel free to address that, particularly when I judge him erroneous. To the extent that he speaks for the site (which reasonably he does), it’s particularly problematic.
If he chooses to comment, he’s part of the conversation. Especially if he chooses to be a knob. I respect Hoover as an institution. Actually, I miss the back alley of Hoover next to CroMem. For the puking at least.
A knob? That’s an outrage ;-)
I referred to the speech, not the man as well.
Do you have a big one, is that what you’re saying? I’m not impressed. But text me.
That Photoshop of Jay Nordlinger and Mona Charen standing behind Trump at his inauguration is the most unlikely picture ever. A picture of them riding on a dragon would be more believable.
I listened to the podcast and was surprised by the weakness of Victor’s case. He basically says, in defense of Trump, “oh yeah, well Obama did it too..” That is grade school stuff. I thought he’d put a better case together than that.
Peter’s case is fairly reasonable, he basically says, “Trump is bad, but at least he is appointing good people.”
But I agree mostly with Jay. Trump’s speech was terrible. “American carnage”, “empty factories scattered like tombstones”, the schools leave our kids “deprived of all knowledge.” He is speaking as if we live in 1970s Cambodia. Shameful and ridiculous.
Keep speaking the truth Mona and Jay!
@arioironstar Call me names, insult Hoover, attribute phrases to Jay that he never said — it’s all very persuasive. I can see why you admire the President so much.
Are you serious? I was being facetious, as I thought you were there at the end. Actually, I was absolutely serious about Hoover. I do admire it greatly. And, truly, I have quite fond memories of puking in the alley next to CroMem in the 1980s. Honestly, I’m surprised by your lack of humor.
But as you are in extremis, I will make one last serious comment. Find me one instance of Victor Davis Hanson, estimable Hoover scholar, denigrating someone for merely choosing not to support Donald Trump. I don’t think he ever did. To ask a related question regarding Jay Nordlinger and a Donald Trump supporter is to answer it. And this is who you’ve chosen to defend.
I regret that you choose to persist in your delusion.