Debate The Debate

This week, Bolton bolts, we debate the debate with The Washington Post’s Henry Olsen, kick around the culture with The Atlantic’s Andrew Ferguson, we’ve got a new Long Poll question for you (but you have to be a Ricochet member to vote), Lileks awards the coveted Member Post of The Week, and some thoughts on the 18th anniversary of 9/11.

Music from this week’s show: My City of Ruins by Bruce Springsteen

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There are 96 comments.

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  1. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    “Statism always expands.”

    The simple fact is, nonpublic goods, politicians guessing at tax brackets and deductions, and showing them down our throats, centralization, and the Federal Reserve supposedly helping the economy are all negative value.Every single government actuarial system is a thieving implosion machine.

    All of these things make everything worse. Then people want more government to fix it.

    • #31
  2. J Ro Member
    J Ro
    @JRo

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Amateur comment on Afghanistan: The geography of that place is ridiculous. Too much of their population is too close to Iran, the “no mans land”, and Pakistan. There is no improving that place even setting aside the more discussed chaotic factors. Hell, Kabul is only 200 miles from Kashmir.

    In addition to that,

    “There were scores of little petty chiefs and tyrants who lost no opportunity of causing trouble in the unsettled times, and the usual Afghan pastimes of blood-feud, robbery, and murder-for-fun were going ahead full steam. Our army prevented any big rising—for the moment, anyway—but it was forever patrolling and manning little forts, and trying to pacify and buy off the robber chiefs, and people were wondering how long this could go on.”

    That’s how Harry Flashman described it in his account of his military service there in 1841-42. And my friends who are serving there lately say it hasn’t changed much, if at all.

     

    • #32
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    “Statism always expands.”

    The simple fact is, nonpublic goods, politicians guessing at tax brackets and deductions, and showing them down our throats, centralization, and the Federal Reserve supposedly helping the economy are all negative value.Every single government actuarial system is a thieving implosion machine.

    All of these things make everything worse. Then people want more government to fix it.

    Especially Democrats.  And Democrats don’t just want more government in general, they want more Democrats to supposedly fix what the previous Democrats already screwed up.

    • #33
  4. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    kedavis (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    “Statism always expands.”

    The simple fact is, nonpublic goods, politicians guessing at tax brackets and deductions, and showing them down our throats, centralization, and the Federal Reserve supposedly helping the economy are all negative value.Every single government actuarial system is a thieving implosion machine.

    All of these things make everything worse. Then people want more government to fix it.

    Especially Democrats. And Democrats don’t just want more government in general, they want more Democrats to supposedly fix what the previous Democrats already screwed up.

    How has the GOP ever been serious about breaking up this dynamic? They never have. If they had any brains they would let Trump run interference for them and get something done.

     

     

     

    • #34
  5. MACHO GRANDE' (aka - Chris Cam… Coolidge
    MACHO GRANDE' (aka - Chris Cam…
    @ChrisCampion

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    I voted for Biden on the Long Poll that asked “who do you want to run against Trump,” but not because I thought he would be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. Rather, he scares me the least. If he won, I think a Biden presidency would be unremarkable, he would bring back in the same folks from the Obama administration and continue similar policies, whereas Sanders and Warren are out to move the party and the country much further to the socialist hard left.

    Rob’s assumptions on that are interesting.  I didn’t vote for who I voted for because I thought it was who I thought would be the easiest to beat.  Not at all.

    I voted for Bernie, because I thought it would be the most entertaining.

    Sorry, Rob – if you’re looking for an answer to a specific question, then phrase the poll so it does that.  Otherwise you’re extrapolating from your assumptions about what people are thinking, not what they think in response to the poll’s question.

    • #35
  6. Bereket Kelile Member
    Bereket Kelile
    @BereketKelile

    Apropos the discussion about writer’s block. It’s one of my favorite quotes.

     

    • #36
  7. ericB Lincoln
    ericB
    @ericB

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):
    I voted for Biden on the Long Poll that asked “who do you want to run against Trump,” but not because I thought he would be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. Rather, he scares me the least.

    It was a poorly worded poll question because it could be taken in two or three different ways.

    • Who do you think Trump would find easiest to beat?
    • If Trump blows it and loses, which Democrat would you rather have as President?

    And…

    MACHO GRANDE’ (aka – Chri… (View Comment):
    I voted for Bernie, because I thought it would be the most entertaining.

    All of the podcast discussion (e.g. that the voters were wrong, etc.) seemed to assume the first interpretation, but that was an incorrect assumption.

    Given that people voted for candidates according to wildly different interpretations of the vague question, the results are a muddle and it’s doubtful whether the results tell much at all.

    p.s. “Which Democrat Do You Think Has the Best Chances Against Trump?” is far more clear and meaningful.  The apparent discrepancies between the polls reflect the ambiguity of the first one.

    • #37
  8. WilliamDean Coolidge
    WilliamDean
    @WilliamDean

    nm

    • #38
  9. WilliamDean Coolidge
    WilliamDean
    @WilliamDean

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    If I heard correctly, Mr. Robinson referred to his co-hosts as a “son-of-a-bitch” and a “bastard.” Not overly harsh language for many of us, but from Peter it reminded me of Richie Cunningham trying to act tough . . .

    I found it refreshing to hear Peter curse like a sailor.

    Now, if we can just get him to quit sighing mid-statement.

    • #39
  10. Max Ledoux Coolidge
    Max Ledoux
    @Max

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    It would be very, very helpful if we could have a 10 second replay option.

    Not sure what you mean by that. A skip ahead/back button?

    Yep, we have older ears out here, and the folks have a tendency to talk over each other.

    Also, take away Peter’s Eminem playlist – it’s affecting his vocabulary.

    Web audio players have very limited features. What I’d suggest is downloading the file to your desktop and the using QuickTime, Windows Media Player or a third party player to play the file. There are hundreds of them.

    Most podcast players for mobile devices also have this feature built in.

    OK thanks

    Here on the site you can use the left / right arrow keys to skip back (left) and forward (right) 5 seconds at a time. I strongly encourage everyone to listen to the podcasts with a podcast app, either on your computer or phone or tablet, though. It’s a lot easier for you (podcast apps are designed specifically for listening to podcasts) and better for us if you subscribe to the Superfeed or individual show feeds.

    • #40
  11. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):
    better for us if you subscribe to the Superfeed or individual show feeds.

    Just to be clear, you guys get credit when we subscribe to individual shows over iTunes? Right? 

    • #41
  12. Blue Yeti Admin
    Blue Yeti
    @BlueYeti

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):
    better for us if you subscribe to the Superfeed or individual show feeds.

    Just to be clear, you guys get credit when we subscribe to individual shows over iTunes? Right?

    We get credit for both the SuperFeed and individual shows. 

    • #42
  13. Blue Yeti Admin
    Blue Yeti
    @BlueYeti

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):
    Here on the site you can use the left / right arrow keys to skip back (left) and forward (right) 5 seconds at a time.

    I did not know this. Thanks, @max!

    • #43
  14. Drusus Inactive
    Drusus
    @Drusus

    I also voted for Biden in the Long Poll for the same reasons Joseph outlined – the last election taught me to be careful about my assumptions regarding electability. Clinton’s team wanted Trump to get the nomination. Whoops. I know Biden polls best against Trump, but honestly he is the best option for the rule of law and the Constitution on that stage. Scary, I know.  I actually plan to vote for him in the primary for this very reason. It will be the first (and hopefully only) time I ever vote for a Democrat. Sanders as President would be a nightmare.

    Re: Gladwell, I think The Tipping Point is actually a good book and contains insights worth pondering. Blink was trash.

    • #44
  15. ExcitableBoy Inactive
    ExcitableBoy
    @ExcitableBoy

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    I voted for Biden on the Long Poll that asked “who do you want to run against Trump,” but not because I thought he would be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. Rather, he scares me the least. If he won, I think a Biden presidency would be unremarkable, he would bring back in the same folks from the Obama administration and continue similar policies, whereas Sanders and Warren are out to move the party and the country much further to the socialist hard left.

    This is exactly what I did. I was confused when Rob started talking about this poll. There’s a risk/reward calculation. Even if Biden is stronger against Trump, I would vote for him in the Dem primary at this point, because President Warren is not unthinkable. There’s also an unknown number of Ricochet members who would probably prefer Biden to Trump, which also screws up the poll.

    • #45
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    WilliamDean (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    If I heard correctly, Mr. Robinson referred to his co-hosts as a “son-of-a-bitch” and a “bastard.” Not overly harsh language for many of us, but from Peter it reminded me of Richie Cunningham trying to act tough . . .

    I found it refreshing to hear Peter curse like a sailor.

    Now, if we can just get him to quit sighing mid-statement.

    And finish his sentences, rather than just stop mid-word apparently assuming that everyone knows what he was going to say.

    • #46
  17. Theodoric of Freiberg Inactive
    Theodoric of Freiberg
    @TheodoricofFreiberg

    The first Long Poll illustrates how difficult it is to create a valid, unambiguous survey question.

    • #47
  18. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    I certainly understand Andrew’s preference for writing about culture over politics now. Because today’s culture is tomorrow’s politics.

    The number of Conservatives who truly believe this, though, is probably less than 3 percent. Oh, they’ll nod their heads when you bring it up to them, but they don’t actually believe it, and the subject frankly bores them (“Meh”) and they’re far more comfortable talking about the next election.

    But a work like What the Constitution Means to Me is a much better indicator of where we are as a country than anything going on in the political realm.

    And it could never have been a Broadway hit until recently.

     

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired:  the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Trump’s “incivility” — i.e., saying in public what other Presidents said in private — is laughably insignificant compared to keeping progressives’ grimy hands off the Supreme Court.  (Unless you’re fond of “penumbras” and “emanations”!)

    Ferguson’s other reason to oppose Trump — his allegedly corrupting effect on his conservative defenders — ascends heights of triviality hitherto unknown to Man.

    • #48
  19. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Guys, seriously, what is going on? Joe Biden was tops in last week’s “Which Democrat Do You Hope Runs Against Trump?” poll. Now’s he’s got the lead in the “Which Democrat Do You Think Has the Best Chances Against Trump?” poll. What?

    See my prior comment:

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    I voted for Biden on the Long Poll that asked “who do you want to run against Trump,” but not because I thought he would be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. Rather, he scares me the least. If he won, I think a Biden presidency would be unremarkable, he would bring back in the same folks from the Obama administration and continue similar policies, whereas Sanders and Warren are out to move the party and the country much further to the socialist hard left.

     

    A plausible argument, but it may be wrong.

    Reading Hemingway and Severino’s book on the Kavanaugh fight, we find that Diane Feinstein, once the most collegial of Democratic Senators, is in her old age led by the nose by her increasingly radical staff.

     Then there’s the aged Jeff Sessions, whose weakness and vacillation as AG nearly destroyed the Trump Presidency and may yet limit it to one term.

    It’s all too likely that a doddering Pres. Biden will not be able to stand up to the radicals, even if he wants to.

    • #49
  20. filmklassik Inactive
    filmklassik
    @filmklassik

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired: the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Fine.  But answer me this:   If Trump goes down in flames next year and Ferguson — even after Trump is gone —  continues to write about culture instead of politics, will you admit your thesis was wrong? 

     

    • #50
  21. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Taras (View Comment):

    I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

     

    Did you notice that Ben Sasse got endorsed by Trump? The Never Trumpers on my Twitter feed are very upset. All he ever did was tell people to behave and suck it up.  No policies. All he did was pitch books. Ridiculous.

    If you’re going to be unrealistic about where this country is and how it happened your positions are going to make a lot of sense. They aren’t going to workout. 

    It basically comes down to two things in my opinion. David Horowitz is right about everything and some people don’t want to admit it. The other thing is all of the Western governments have done every single thing wrong in the face of job destruction and wage pressure from automation and globalized labor. One way or another you have to be realistic about all of that.

    And then they didn’t get the ACA repealed. Unbelievable.

    • #51
  22. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired: the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Fine. But answer me this: If Trump goes down in flames next year and Ferguson — even after Trump is gone — continues to write about culture instead of politics, will you admit your thesis was wrong?

    “Dat’s too hyperthetical, Weevil!”  “Way too hyperthetical, Mr. Duck!”

    (Insufficient data at this time.  Some guys who fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam stayed.)

    • #52
  23. filmklassik Inactive
    filmklassik
    @filmklassik

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired: the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Fine. But answer me this: If Trump goes down in flames next year and Ferguson — even after Trump is gone — continues to write about culture instead of politics, will you admit your thesis was wrong?

    “Dat’s too hyperthetical, Weevil!” “Way too hyperthetical, Mr. Duck!”

    (Insufficient data at this time. Some guys who fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam stayed.)

    Hypothetical questions — by definition — contain no data.  All I was asking was a simple “What if?” 

    As in, you maintain that Ferguson’s decision to switch to writing about culture instead of politics stems from the fact that “he is losing the argument over Trump.”

    So it follows that if your theory is correct, Ferguson will return his attention to politics if Trump loses next year, right?  (Why wouldn’t he?)

    On the other hand, if Trump loses and Ferguson keeps right on focusing on culture … doesn’t it stand to reason that Ferguson’s decision to jump into that particular lane had little to do with Trump?  

    Wouldn’t that be a fair deduction?

    And if not, why not?

     

     

     

    • #53
  24. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    Did you notice that Ben Sasse got endorsed by Trump? The Never Trumpers on my Twitter feed are very upset. All he ever did was tell people to behave and suck it up. No policies. All he did was pitch books. Ridiculous.

    I think that’s a little unfair. He voted with Trump to get decent policies passed. I’d vote for the guy. 

    • #54
  25. Mr. Michael Garrett Lincoln
    Mr. Michael Garrett
    @MichaelGarrett

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    It would be very, very helpful if we could have a 10 second replay option.

    You may be able to customize that on the application you use to play your podcasts.

    • #55
  26. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    RufusRJones (View Comment):
    Did you notice that Ben Sasse got endorsed by Trump? The Never Trumpers on my Twitter feed are very upset. All he ever did was tell people to behave and suck it up. No policies. All he did was pitch books. Ridiculous.

    I think that’s a little unfair. He voted with Trump to get decent policies passed. I’d vote for the guy.

    Well it’s just a fact that NTs are mad at Sasse now. I mean really mad. I think he used to use a lot of fairly direct anti-Trump rhetoric and now they are mad he isn’t going to do that anymore.

    I can’t stand his political philosophy. Philip Klein was very critical of him in a similar way I’m describing and he’s a hell of a lot smarter than me.

    • #56
  27. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired: the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Fine. But answer me this: If Trump goes down in flames next year and Ferguson — even after Trump is gone — continues to write about culture instead of politics, will you admit your thesis was wrong?

    “Dat’s too hyperthetical, Weevil!” “Way too hyperthetical, Mr. Duck!”

    (Insufficient data at this time. Some guys who fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam stayed.)

    Hypothetical questions — by definition — contain no data. All I was asking was a simple “What if?”

    As in, you maintain that Ferguson’s decision to switch to writing about culture instead of politics stems from the fact that “he is losing the argument over Trump.”

    So it follows that if your theory is correct, Ferguson will return his attention to politics if Trump loses next year, right? (Why wouldn’t he?)

    On the other hand, if Trump loses and Ferguson keeps right on focusing on culture … doesn’t it stand to reason that Ferguson’s decision to jump into that particular lane had little to do with Trump?

    Wouldn’t that be a fair deduction?

    And if not, why not?

    Let me spell it out a little more …

    If the Vietnam War ends and an alleged draft dodger stays in Canada … doesn’t it stand to reason that his decision to flee to Canada had little to do with the war?

    Short answer:  NO.  The reason he fled and the reason he stayed need not be the same.

    Going back to Ferguson (the man not the city), if editors pay well for his culture stuff, he may never come back to politics.  If they don’t, he will have to come back in spite of Trump.

    • #57
  28. filmklassik Inactive
    filmklassik
    @filmklassik

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    filmklassik (View Comment):

    Based on my experience of many debates over the years, I believe Ferguson is backing away from politics because he’s losing the argument over Trump and, like many people, can’t admit he was wrong.

    Also, endorsing Trump would probably get him fired: the sad life of the token conservative in the liberal media.

    Fine. But answer me this: If Trump goes down in flames next year and Ferguson — even after Trump is gone — continues to write about culture instead of politics, will you admit your thesis was wrong?

    “Dat’s too hyperthetical, Weevil!” “Way too hyperthetical, Mr. Duck!”

    (Insufficient data at this time. Some guys who fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam stayed.)

    Hypothetical questions — by definition — contain no data. All I was asking was a simple “What if?”

    As in, you maintain that Ferguson’s decision to switch to writing about culture instead of politics stems from the fact that “he is losing the argument over Trump.”

    So it follows that if your theory is correct, Ferguson will return his attention to politics if Trump loses next year, right? (Why wouldn’t he?)

    On the other hand, if Trump loses and Ferguson keeps right on focusing on culture … doesn’t it stand to reason that Ferguson’s decision to jump into that particular lane had little to do with Trump?

    Wouldn’t that be a fair deduction?

    And if not, why not?

    Let me spell it out a little more …

    If the Vietnam War ends and an alleged draft dodger stays in Canada … doesn’t it stand to reason that his decision to flee to Canada had little to do with the war?

    Short answer: NO. The reason he fled and the reason he stayed need not be the same.

    Going back to Ferguson (the man not the city), if editors pay well for his culture stuff, he may never come back to politics. If they don’t, he will have to come back in spite of Trump.

    Oh, I see what you’re saying.  Okay, fair enough.   I don’t fully agree with you (it just seems to me that if a talented pro like Ferguson loves writing about politics but is urged by Trump-derangement into another lane, he’s gonna go back to writing about politics the minute Trump is gone), but fair enough.  

    • #58
  29. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Taras (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    See my prior comment:

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    I voted for Biden on the Long Poll that asked “who do you want to run against Trump,” but not because I thought he would be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. Rather, he scares me the least. If he won, I think a Biden presidency would be unremarkable, he would bring back in the same folks from the Obama administration and continue similar policies, whereas Sanders and Warren are out to move the party and the country much further to the socialist hard left.

     

    A plausible argument, but it may be wrong.

    Reading Hemingway and Severino’s book on the Kavanaugh fight, we find that Diane Feinstein, once the most collegial of Democratic Senators, is in her old age led by the nose by her increasingly radical staff.

    Then there’s the aged Jeff Sessions, whose weakness and vacillation as AG nearly destroyed the Trump Presidency and may yet limit it to one term.

    It’s all too likely that a doddering Pres. Biden will not be able to stand up to the radicals, even if he wants to.

    I don’t know what evidence there is that he wouldn’t go along with them anyway.  And wouldn’t have even when he was much younger and at least theoretically less doddering.

    • #59
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Theodoric of Freiberg (View Comment):

    The first Long Poll illustrates how difficult it is to create a valid, unambiguous survey question.

    Not a good example.  That was very open-ended from the start.  Only someone who thought he knew what other people would think of it, would believe it was specific.

    • #60
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