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Don’t matter what you call it. Ricochetti are a passionate bunch, and sometimes the fighting spirit takes over. Our first guests are Andrew Gutmann (hosts of the essential Take Back Our Schools podcast) and Ricochet member Michele Kerr who’s had some strong criticisms of the fellas’ takes on public education over the years. For those of you who like a little scrappiness on the flagship podcast: this one’s for you!
Next we bring on our favorite doctor (the kind that doesn’t ask if the bruises are Covid related), Jay Bhattacharya! He explains how he became known as a fringey pseudoscientific quack and the ins and outs of Covid’s last gasp.
With Peter out, James and Rob steer the ship through a Musk-y hostile takeover, NYC’s newest madman and the latest in Ukraine. And mark your calendars so you can join Rob for the America’s Future pub crawl on May 14th! Members only: so sign up today!
Music from this week’s podcast: Adult Education by Hall and Oates
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I have an idea. Don’t use schools to talk to kids about anything that is political or psychological.
Perhaps civics, math, and English grammar would get more time if silly stuff were eliminated.
Wipe all of that stuff out. Make sure every kid can diagram a sentence and write a complete paragraph. Make them explain why they need to be able to write a complete paragraph. Jack up their vocabulary some reasonable percent. Jack up their math and statistics ability some reasonable percent. I wonder how many kids fall through that filter.
Followup to myself. Just last week Florida enacted a fatherhood/family promotion law.
Introduced “to” or “by”? If “by”, I agree that I find the whole thing bizarre. I assume that it’s introduced by teachers in charters and private schools. One issue rarely acknowledged by Republicans demanding choice and vouchers is that teachers in charters and private schools are far more progressive than teachers (on average) in publics.
So they do it, then deeply progressive teachers in public schools think hey,wow, let’s do that!
I also wonder if principals are worried that if they put a stop to it they’ll end up targeted. That’s why I think mandated reporting is the obvious place to start with this.
Yep. Back in the 90s and oughts, everyone thought it was the cool thing to do. But the standard was very low (sophomore level for English, 7th/8th grade math) and kids were still failing it, and refusing to let kids graduate was an unpopular idea. Pretty much every state, left or right, did away with the test. The few that have it usually offer workarounds.
https://www.fairtest.org/graduation-test-update-states-recently-eliminated
My point here is not “we shouldn’t have graduation tests” but “don’t delude yourself that this is just blue states.”
Here’s a protip: literally everything you’ve thought of has already been tried and failed, or it wasn’t tried because there’d be lawsuits. Like DonG’s comment, here:
Germany has all the racial and ethnic disparities in achievement that we do. They aren’t doing it “right”, if by “right” you mean giving their non-white, poor, and immigrant population better educations. Most of their immigrants do very poorly, don’t qualify for academic secondary and rarely get vocational degrees, either. Germany just doesn’t care and the immigrants have little political power. America’s different. So don’t kid yourself that Germany’s educating better. They’re just not in danger of being sued because they don’t have Civil Rights or ESEA legislation.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00207659.2018.1483045
“ . . . Leading change . . . ” means “forcing your religious views on others without sacrifice, suffering, or going to church.”
Someone mentioned the other day, I think in a quote from Candace Owens, that if a teacher is providing sexually explicit material to children, you don’t call the school; you call the police, because that’s a crime.
You’re assuming we know what a “female” is. I’m not a biologist. [I don’t do emojis, but I am smirking.]
Working around a problem perpetuates it. Finding surrogates for fathers helps them cop out.
This isn’t a problem that can be legislated away–we must be vocal both in our expectations and support of fathers. But laws can be more consistent with expectations. Child support should be mandatory and at levels that allow children to be well cared for. Public financial support should kick in only when its clear the father has contributed all he can.
There seems to have been a pretty severe lack of balance over time.
I think sex robots will work better than a public morality campaign.
They should have been paying bounties for procreating actual W-2 slaves decades ago.
You procreate somebody and they don’t go to jail before age 26 or something, you get a great big fat pay out.
Seriously, our idiot rulers need to talk like that.
This is what LBJ started.
If public school unions have no power why have them at all?
I don’t buy the pro-natalism no matter what position. You need people who can generate wealth rather detract wealth.
That would be ideal if you can figure out how to do it. But no matter what, you need people to have a nation; robots, sex or otherwise, won’t suffice.
I am uncomfortable with saying this. I’m pretty sure it’s a fact that population growth is 2/3 of GDP. Comrades need to procreate for the state.
My main point is, these idiots invented the pill, feminism, Medicare, the great society, and inflation at the same time.
The effing government should be set up to deal with people NOT WANTING TO procreate W-2 slaves. The whole concept is distasteful. Why is LBJ so involved in peoples families? That is literally what happened. These idiots. And seriously I don’t care how they do it as long as they do it.
Mark Steyn addresses these issues in “America Alone,” as well as the Best Interview Of Anyone, Ever, from December 2, 2006 on Northern Alliance Radio Network (NARN).
Thanks for the reply Michele – I appreciate it.
I see your objective, allow me to run something by you:
The issue of schools is very large when viewed from the national perspective. Numerous schools, school districts, cities, counties, regions, and heck we have FIFTY States (I will ignore protectorates, etc.), and ALL of these sub-categories have multiple variables that affect how the individual school serves its customers and employees. So, I agree largely that as a NATIONAL party it makes no sense for the GOP to run against public schools as total failures.
But, if any STATE party wishes to have a go with the way they design schools I say GO FOR IT, even more for local county/city or district moves.
Given that you have mentioned that much of what School boards can do is limited by Fed mandates – perhaps the thing at the national level for the GOP to do is trumpet your point that we are not against teachers or think all schools are failures, but we should free up state and local agencies to work to fit what is best for their personal area. In other words, run on repealing (omg I’m dreaming again) all Federal laws that are hampering schools. Keep some national data collecting rules – but no mandates on what to do, just data reports.
Therefore, I offer you the NEW GOP PLAN for EDUCATION:
Over time, these more local laboratories of invention will provide feedback, allow for rapid local change, and reach a better state for all parties involved.
Bringing this down from a Federal to a State (and hopefully down to the county/district locality) seems the best way to come at this very complex and diverse issue.
How did I do Michele?
I’m not Michele, but I’ll point out that many/most/all(?) federal education requirements are not hard requirements so much as what-you-must-do-if-you-want-this-pile-of-money. (And even federally-required data reports that you mention, cost money to produce.) They want the money, so they do what is required to get it.
Good luck getting them off that teat.
You removed all my comment on vocational training and then replied as if I said something about immigrants. Why do you do that?
One of the things about school choice is that there are many flavors of private schools. Many are Catholic, others are Christian or Jewish, but some are hippy schools. For those varied flavors, “progressive” means different things. For Catholics it is socially conservative economically progressive. The least progressive schools in my area are the home school hybrids. I think Republicans understand and expect that school choice means a variety choices.
I’ve found all of this interesting as education is a personal passion.
First, to show my own “credentials” per my own experiences: I’ve been a substitute teacher at every level of public education. I’ve taught high school in both a high performing/very wealthy setting where parents took their kids to Europe and where most of my students got free lunch and the policemen had real guns as they roamed the hallways due to very real, very scary gang issues. I’ve also taught in both a community college and at a four year university.
As a parent, I moved to the best neighborhoods I could afford, so my child attended a mix of various quality public schools in multiple US states with one being a charter and also–eventually–a high end, single-gender private school that required an entrance exam in another country. I’ve also lived in 14 states, so I feel as if I’ve had a very wide experience with American education and beyond. Oh! And I attended elementary school in California though that was many years ago. :)
Michelle is right to point out some issues that no one outside of education really thinks much about. We do not have a homogenous population, and that is really, really challenging. (Our core values help us deal with this, btw, better than many other countries.) Too much funding in schools is eaten up in ways by special education that are practically forbidden to critique, which is a difficult problem to address per our own laws and commitment to these children. There is wayyyyy too much $ funneled to administrations, especially in higher education, which is counterproductive. It is hard to determine who is a good teacher in truly complicated contexts, (though pretty much any student or teacher in a school could tell you the real duds). We don’t have a clear definition of “success” in education, and many parents are happy with their neighborhood schools, (though what was meant by “parents don’t really care about education” is that many care the most about kids having access to degrees that will put them in the elite.) Republicans do focus too much on “school choice” as a panacea because this will not solve a lot of the social ills that lead to bad outcomes in general, and you literally can’t leave these ills all behind.
However, any teacher that I know would say that there are deep problems within the system. Michelle didn’t mention it, but another reason Finland teachers did well/had the respect of the community was that only the top graduates are allowed into the profession. In the US, people say–often unfairly but too often fairly–“people who can do; people who can’t teach.”
That is a problem.
Education schools are absolutely useless. There is a ton of leftward drift, which is easy to see at every level and definitely pollutes K-12 education as well as beyond.
cont.
I don’t know how to solve all of these problems, though I would say at my one horrible school that ate teachers alive and had very, very specific problems, I cried at my desk when an anonymous survey of my homeroom–around 40 kids–revealed only three felt safe on campus. (My own husband wanted to buy me a kevlar vest.) I’d absolutely eject the kids who made it almost impossible for the larger student body to learn. (There are schools for these kids, too, and they have various levels of success.) Btw, I had ELL/minority kids who were wonderful and totally capable of making the same/higher grades as anyone else, but I often think back to how I underserved those babies because I was in my first two years of teaching. NO teacher is great at first, but no one wants to go to work in those places. (Can you blame anyone?????)
I absolutely reject the notion that these kids aren’t capable of learning though.
That said, there were very specific problems at the high end schools, too. Here thinking isn’t stressed as much as jumping through hoops. The parent who pointed out that there isn’t enough emphasis on writing???? Amen, but I could talk a lot about why there isn’t in many schools…. including suburban schools. End of course tests are often created for the lowest denominator, so a lot of “in the middle” kids learn to be lazy. (Super top kids are supplementing their education with camps and tutors.)
It’s hard to go into the specifics in a post like this, but Michelle is right about some things and the concerns expressed here are based on real problems as well.
My best advice?
Be your child’s advocate. Don’t rely on any system to truly educate your kids. If you pay attention, you’ll know when your child has a great teacher… and a bad teacher. Be classroom moms/dads to the greatest possible extent in elementary schools. Sit down at the dinner table and talk about what was learned. Play devil’s advocate with material. Read the books your kids are reading in high school so you can have the conversations. (You don’t have time????? Don’t be a mediocre parent. YOU are your child’s most important teacher. Make time.)
Realize all this is harder to fix than a Michelle Pfeiffer movie would have you believe. Acknowledge great teachers when you encounter them. Recognize your own part and your child’s part in getting good outcomes. A proper education involves a team.
I agree with all that.
Many shootings are traced back by using the shell casings on ammo, not the gun itself
Right, but that still only gets you to a gun which might have been stolen even if it has a registered serial number.
The point is to show that the shells came from the gun that someone was caught with, or has their fingerprints on, or something. Serial number, or no serial number, isn’t likely to be useful.
You didn’t say anything about immigrants. I did. Because the fabu German system you rave about sends most of its immigrants to vocational school not college and even there they don’t do well, and in America there’s this powerful form of accountability called “lawsuits” and “disparate impact”.
No point in raving about Germany’s system if it wouldn’t work here.
I agree with a lot of that. I just wouldn’t predict much in the way of improved results.
The most powerful things a state could do to save money and have no impact on results: 1) say that since immigration, legal or otherwise, is a federal issue, the feds can educate immigrants and say k-college is for citizens only. 2) Set minimum standards for public universities. 3) Set a minimum competence level for k-12 education and create institutions for minors who can’t manage 4) Require kids to be taught at their ability level, not some myth about what they should be able to do. 5) Use charters for the unmanageable discipline problems, and make them pretty miserable places.
None of those is politically or even legally workable, and I’m not advocating them. I’m just pointing out how completely disconnected both Dems and GOP are from understanding that our education system ain’t all that bad and that only drastic mega-reforms like this would help.
That said, your proposal is a much better platform than the one Republicans have now, so sign me up!
No, Finnish teachers don’t do well because they have only the top graduates. For one thing, they don’t. For another, the fact that Finland can afford to put top graduates in teaching kind of suggests they don’t have much else in the way of jobs. Moreover, the notion that American teachers are stupid is simply not true. ES teachers are slightly below the SAT college graduate average, MS/HS teachers are above the average. Finally, there’s tons of esearch showing no correlation between teacher brains and student outcomes.
I didn’t say there weren’t problems.
Sorry for missing a day yesterday–taxes! Thanks for the debate, everyone.
This was a particularly interesting podcast, and I’m glad I finally got around to listening to it today.
Before I comment further, I’d like to give a nod to Michele for responding to comments here. That’s rare for podcast participants, and I appreciate it; I hope we see more of it.
I’ve thus far not listened to Andrew’s Take Back Our Schools podcasts, but I will start soon.
It’s always a challenge when an obviously knowledgeable person says several things that contradict what I’ve long simply assumed to be correct. Michele did that in this podcast, and I’m going to have to do some further research in response to that. Fortunately, some of the things she said seem like they can be evaluated empirically and compared to my preconceived notions.
For example, she suggests that teacher’s unions have relatively little power. She initially said it in the context of COVID-motivated school closings, but seemed to generalize on the point. I’m skeptical that this is correct, though I wouldn’t be surprised if union clout varies by location. For example, urban schools in what I’ve been led to believe are poorly served communities — Baltimore, for example, or D.C. — may experience outsized union influence.
I’m trying to reconcile the claim of little union influence with the observation Michele made that it’s hard to fire a mediocre teacher. If retention of mediocre teachers contributes to the high rate of poorly educated high school graduates in educationally challenged areas, that would suggest a significant impact of unions on the thing that matters most, the core function of schools as educational institutions.
But Michele says that schools are teaching well, suggesting that it is a mistake to believe that standards have declined. Again, this is something that we should be able to evaluate empirically. She mentioned more than once that defining or quantifying performance was itself challenging. This, the effectiveness of education, would seem to be something both important and readily quantifiable.
I agree with Andrew’s observation that many parents don’t value education. Michele jumped on that, but not in a manner that challenged the assertion. In fact, when she noted that raising standards would result in more students failing, and that that in turn would upset parents, I think she was tacitly admitting what Andrew was saying: many parents don’t value education, however much they may insist on good grades being assigned to their children.
Overall, I found myself taken aback by, and skeptical of, many of Michele’s claims. She may be correct. I remain skeptical.
“Tattooed on the back of the neck.” I snorted at that one, and my esteem for James went up yet another notch.
You missed the “Luxury Yacht” one?
P.S. “Max” (Jessica Alba) from “Dark Angel” did have a tattoo on the back of her neck.