A Fabulous Fourth

To kick off a great Fourth of July Weekend we’ll need firecrackers, but, of course, only with adult supervision. For the former, we’ve got John Yoo filling in for Rob and Charles C.W. Cooke as our first guest – for the latter, Mr. Bill McGurn.

To start, Peter and James get to pick Yoo’s brain on a few of the recent Supreme Court decisions along with Bill Cosby’s release. Then Charlie gives an ode to the only country on Earth that lets you move here and consider yourself a full member. Lastly, Bill fills us in on his saintly godson, Jimmy Lai, and his concerns for the future of Hong Kong. A podcast for all lovers of freedom and justice!

Music from this week’s show: Saturday in the Park by Chicago.

And we’re off next week, but we’ll see you again on the 16th. Happy Independence Day to all!

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  1. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    JennaStocker (View Comment):

    I think we can do so here. Happy Independence Day!

    That we can. If not here, then where?

    And happy 4th to all as well!

    • #31
  2. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Yeti on record as being OK with unarmed women being gunned down by government agents never even investigated.

    Classy!

    If there were an above board investigation maybe you would have a point Scott. But you don’t. Instead you support thr NYT.

    This post shows where Ricochet really is, 100%.

    That’s the optimism we expect from Bryan. 

    • #32
  3. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Trust the NYT?

    • #33
  4. Wolfsheim Member
    Wolfsheim
    @Wolfsheim

    Another fine podcast, particularly with the ever wise and witty John Yoo sitting in for Rob Long…A quibble then further praise:

    I grow a bit weary of the old line that America is unique because anyone can become an American, whereas no one can become a citizen of fill-in-the-blank. That “blank” is all too often Japan…Well, I am a Japanese citizen, having spent most of my life here—and all of my life not looking much at all like Yoshio Yamada, though I have a name much like his, written in kanji (Chinese characters). I recently went to get my passport renewed and found myself, in this COVID era, the only customer. The friendly young ladies behind the glass partition betrayed not a hint of surprise…A few years ago, I was in America, where the young lady renting me a car somehow couldn’t resist asking why someone speaking with what she took to be a German accent had a Japanese driver’s license…Times change. I would argue that Americans are far more obsessed with “race” and “identity” than are today’s Japanese, supposedly the world’s most insular people…I love the American idea—and even miss the bland American hotdogs on July 4th—but at the moment I don’t feel at all inclined to live in America. Nonetheless, many happy returns!

    A great interview with Bill McGurn, whose faith I share. Bless him, Jimmy Lai, and both their families! I have been a student of Chinese history and language(s) from way back. I am no political expert, but I said from before the “reversion” that it was surely all a betrayal and a scam.

    “A man at peace with himself…” What an inspiration! Thank you!

     

     

    • #34
  5. Headedwest Coolidge
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):
    My title is meaningless in this context.

    Why don’t you create a user account for rants and snark?

    • #35
  6. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Wolfsheim (View Comment):
    A great interview with Bill McGurn, whose faith I share. Bless him, Jimmy Lai, and both their families!

    I agree 100%. Very inspiring story of Jimmy Lai and his wife.

    I was hoping fellow Catholic Peter would have taken the conversation to asking about the deal the Vatican struck with the CCP and how this has emboldened the CCP – no one, not even the moral authority of the Church, pushes back against them. The pope won’t even grant an audience to Cardinal Zen for crying out loud.

    • #36
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):
    My title is meaningless in this context.

    Why don’t you create a user account for rants and snark?

    It might be a nice facade but otherwise pointless.

    (Interesting that the Ricochet text editor doesn’t think “facade” is a word.)

    • #37
  8. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    I had a dream about John Yu last night. He made funny jokes but I can’t remember anything else. 

    • #38
  9. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it.  I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins.  His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook.  I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too.  Can one feel both British and American?  I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?   

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English.  I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind.  If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism.  I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way.   That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that….  Interesting comments in thread on Japan.  This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited?  Am I wrong about that?

    • #39
  10. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America.  The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    • #40
  11. J Ro Member
    J Ro
    @JRo

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it. I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins. His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English. I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind. If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism. I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way. That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that…. Interesting comments in thread on Japan. This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited? Am I wrong about that?

    This article caught my eye a few years ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum-applications-2017-accepted-20

    So, the annual number of asylum seekers accepted in Japan is approximately equivalent to the annual number of unarmed black men shot by police in the US—about 20.

    • #41
  12. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    Just once, I’d like to hear someone from the WSJ or the US Chamber O’Commerce express a greater willingness to use tariffs as a response to Chinese economic and foreign policy misbehavior than using the military.

    Sometimes it’s enough to make one an unapologetic supporter of Populist politicians.

    • #42
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    J Ro (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it. I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins. His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English. I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind. If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism. I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way. That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that…. Interesting comments in thread on Japan. This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited? Am I wrong about that?

    This article caught my eye a few years ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum-applications-2017-accepted-20

    So, the annual number of asylum seekers accepted in Japan is approximately equivalent to the annual number of unarmed black men shot by police in the US—about 20.

    Don’t you mean “unarmed black teens,” such as 6′ 4″ tall, 292 lb 18-year-old adult Michael Brown who was beating on a cop and trying to take his gun?

    • #43
  14. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    kedavis (View Comment):

    J Ro (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it. I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins. His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English. I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind. If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism. I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way. That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that…. Interesting comments in thread on Japan. This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited? Am I wrong about that?

    This article caught my eye a few years ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum-applications-2017-accepted-20

    So, the annual number of asylum seekers accepted in Japan is approximately equivalent to the annual number of unarmed black men shot by police in the US—about 20.

    Don’t you mean “unarmed black teens,” such as 6′ 4″ tall, 292 lb 18-year-old adult Michael Brown who was beating on a cop and trying to take his gun?

    “Youths” is the preferred term.

    • #44
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    J Ro (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it. I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins. His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English. I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind. If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism. I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way. That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that…. Interesting comments in thread on Japan. This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited? Am I wrong about that?

    This article caught my eye a few years ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum-applications-2017-accepted-20

    So, the annual number of asylum seekers accepted in Japan is approximately equivalent to the annual number of unarmed black men shot by police in the US—about 20.

    Don’t you mean “unarmed black teens,” such as 6′ 4″ tall, 292 lb 18-year-old adult Michael Brown who was beating on a cop and trying to take his gun?

    “Youths” is the preferred term.

    Yutes?

    I always see and hear “teens.”

    In “My Cousin Vinny” the characters played by Ralph Macchio and the other guy were referred to as “youths” (yutes) but Macchio at least was 24 and his character was probably not supposed to be still a teenager.

    • #45
  16. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    J Ro (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and look forward to it. I absolutely get excited when John Yoo joins. His good humor and temperament are always soothing, but I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    When I lived in England, I loved England, but I never felt English. I know Cook actually feels American, but it would be so hard to leave the spirit of one’s birthplace behind. If I ever applied for citizenship in the UK, it would have been about utility, not patriotism. I wonder how many people become citizens here in that same way. That said, I suppose “American” is such a mutt culture that it can absorb that impulse?

    On that…. Interesting comments in thread on Japan. This is a country I love to visit. It’s my understanding, however, that Japanese immigration is still super limited? Am I wrong about that?

    This article caught my eye a few years ago:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum-applications-2017-accepted-20

    So, the annual number of asylum seekers accepted in Japan is approximately equivalent to the annual number of unarmed black men shot by police in the US—about 20.

    Don’t you mean “unarmed black teens,” such as 6′ 4″ tall, 292 lb 18-year-old adult Michael Brown who was beating on a cop and trying to take his gun?

    “Youths” is the preferred term.

    Yutes?

    I always see and hear “teens.”

    In “My Cousin Vinny” the characters played by Ralph Macchio and the other guy were referred to as “youths” (yutes) but Macchio at least was 24 and his character was probably not supposed to be still a teenager.

    “Youths” is probably the euphemism of choice in the UK. Which is why it so irritates Mark Steyn.

    • #46
  17. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    • #47
  18. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions.  That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void.  And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    • #48
  19. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Wolfsheim (View Comment):
    I grow a bit weary of the old line that America is unique because anyone can become an American, whereas no one can become a citizen of fill-in-the-blank. That “blank” is all too often Japan…

    I think the distinction we usually make is not one of citizenship, but rather something a little different. Anyone can say “I am American,” because all that implies is that you are a U.S. citizen. It is more unsettling to say “I am German, I am French, I am Japanese” if you are not ethnically one of those things. As a nation of transplanted ethnic groups, we don’t have the same kind of correlation between nationality and ethnicity that most nations do.

    And yes, I think it really is an American thing, unique among large nations to America (though Britain does it pretty well also).

     

    • #49
  20. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions. That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void. And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    U.S. law does not prohibit dual citizenship. If we’d like the law to say that, we probably have to pass law that says that, rather than read it into an oath that is a product, not of law, but of executive branch fiat.

    • #50
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions. That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void. And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    U.S. law does not prohibit dual citizenship. If we’d like the law to say that, we probably have to pass law that says that, rather than read it into an oath that is a product, not of law, but of executive branch fiat.

    Then why does the oath say what it says?

    • #51
  22. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions. That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void. And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    U.S. law does not prohibit dual citizenship. If we’d like the law to say that, we probably have to pass law that says that, rather than read it into an oath that is a product, not of law, but of executive branch fiat.

    Then why does the oath say what it says?

    Because some executive branch official thought it sounded good. The wording of the oath is left to the executive branch. But the law does not prohibit dual citizenship, many people have dual citizenship, and the State Department plainly states that dual citizenship is just fine.

    I agree it seems contrary to the plain words of the oath, but the law is the law — a creation of legislation — and the oath is something  else, and not law.

     

    • #52
  23. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    I personally take oaths much more Importantly 

    • #53
  24. davenr321 Coolidge
    davenr321
    @davenr321

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the podcast?

    That Charles Cooke dude is seriously impressive. And he’s a kid! The US of A needs more of them!

    Great podcast all around!

    • #54
  25. Blue Yeti Admin
    Blue Yeti
    @BlueYeti

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):Trust the NYT?

     

    <whispers> Psst, Bryan: it’s not really much of  a scandal if they disclosed that they changed the headline:

    Somehow, your very selective screenshot of Goldberg’s column left this part of the column out. Weird!

    It wouldn’t be relevant except you used this selectively cropped screenshot in a comment in which you were trying to make a point about alleged selective editing of a video.  👍

    • #55
  26. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions. That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void. And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    U.S. law does not prohibit dual citizenship. If we’d like the law to say that, we probably have to pass law that says that, rather than read it into an oath that is a product, not of law, but of executive branch fiat.

    Then why does the oath say what it says?

    Because some executive branch official thought it sounded good. The wording of the oath is left to the executive branch. But the law does not prohibit dual citizenship, many people have dual citizenship, and the State Department plainly states that dual citizenship is just fine.

    I agree it seems contrary to the plain words of the oath, but the law is the law — a creation of legislation — and the oath is something else, and not law.

    The oath of citizenship is not simply an executive branch creation, it is essentially dictated by the Immigration and Naturalization Statute, specifically at 8 U.S.C. §1448:

    §1448. Oath of renunciation and allegiance

    (a) Public ceremony

    A person who has applied for naturalization shall, in order to be and before being admitted to citizenship, take in a public ceremony before the Attorney General or a court with jurisdiction under section 1421(b) of this title an oath (1) to support the Constitution of the United States; (2) to renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen; (3) to support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; (4) to bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and (5)(A) to bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law, or (B) to perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law, or (C) to perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law. Any such person shall be required to take an oath containing the substance of clauses (1) to (5) of the preceding sentence[.]

    • #56
  27. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    I always listen to this podcast and . . . I also like the inestimable Charles Cook. I wonder, actually, if he is still British, too. Can one feel both British and American? I believe the UK allows for dual citizenship, yes?

    Charles C.W. Cooke is solely a citizen of the United States of America. The very first words of the naturalization oath he was required to swear are

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen”

    The U.S. also allows dual citizenship and in fact the State Department says that one may become a citizen of another nation without relinquishing U.S. citizenship: that person is obliged to continue to follow U.S. law when in U.S. jurisdictions. I don’t know how to square that with the naturalization oath, but there was no U.S. requirement that Mr. Cooke surrender his British nationality or passport when he became a U.S. citizen, and Britain allows British citizens to remain British citizens when they become citizens of other nations.

    Even non-citizens are obliged to follow US law when in US jurisdictions. That doesn’t come only with citizenship.

    I think that the oath at least implies that if someone is – or becomes – a US citizen and then undertakes or claims to retain citizenship of another country, their US citizenship is void. And if implied isn’t good enough, then I think it should be made clear.

    U.S. law does not prohibit dual citizenship. If we’d like the law to say that, we probably have to pass law that says that, rather than read it into an oath that is a product, not of law, but of executive branch fiat.

    Then why does the oath say what it says?

    Because some executive branch official thought it sounded good. The wording of the oath is left to the executive branch. But the law does not prohibit dual citizenship, many people have dual citizenship, and the State Department plainly states that dual citizenship is just fine.

    I agree it seems contrary to the plain words of the oath, but the law is the law — a creation of legislation — and the oath is something else, and not law.

    The oath of citizenship is not simply an executive branch creation, it is essentially dictated by the Immigration and Naturalization Statute, specifically at 8 U.S.C. §1448:

    §1448. Oath of renunciation and allegiance

    (a) Public ceremony

    A person who has applied for naturalization shall, in order to be and before being admitted to citizenship, take in a public ceremony before the Attorney General or a court with jurisdiction under section 1421(b) of this title an oath (1) to support the Constitution of the United States; (2) to renounce and abjure absolutely and entirely all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which the applicant was before a subject or citizen; (3) to support and defend the Constitution and the laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; (4) to bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and (5)(A) to bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law, or (B) to perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law, or (C) to perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law. Any such person shall be required to take an oath containing the substance of clauses (1) to (5) of the preceding sentence[.]

    Interesting. So the chosen wording tracks closely to the actual legal statement. And yet the U.S. allows dual citizenship. I wonder if the courts have ever weighed in on whether or not clause (2) requires that foreign citizenship actually be surrendered, or if it’s simply not been brought up.

    • #57
  28. Wolfsheim Member
    Wolfsheim
    @Wolfsheim

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Wolfsheim (View Comment):
    I grow a bit weary of the old line that America is unique because anyone can become an American, whereas no one can become a citizen of fill-in-the-blank. That “blank” is all too often Japan…

    I think the distinction we usually make is not one of citizenship, but rather something a little different. Anyone can say “I am American,” because all that implies is that you are a U.S. citizen. It is more unsettling to say “I am German, I am French, I am Japanese” if you are not ethnically one of those things. As a nation of transplanted ethnic groups, we don’t have the same kind of correlation between nationality and ethnicity that most nations do.

    And yes, I think it really is an American thing, unique among large nations to America (though Britain does it pretty well also).

     

    Yes, it’s certainly true that America is “a land of immigrants,” but one must not exaggerate distinctions or draw unrealistically sharp lines. Japan once made much of its myth of ethnic homogeneity; that’s not nearly the fashion that it used to be. At the same time, however, there is nothing like the kind of divisive ethnic narcissism now doing so much damage in America. In Japan, one gets into a prestige university with a high entrance examination score, not with claims of having had a transgender Ainu, Taiwanese, or Laotian grandmother. As for France, it is indeed possible to “become French,” particularly as, for historical reasons, ethnicity is simply not recognized. The American practice (and, indeed, requirement) of classifying people according to race or ethnicity is to outsiders quite shocking. There is nothing on my Japanese passport or driver’s license to indicate where I or my ancestors came from.

    Long ago I lived in “multi-ethnic” Hawai’i, where group labels are freely bandied about, sometimes maliciously but not always. Once a kindhearted young lady of Japanese origin told me of an unpleasant incident in a store where she was working. She had encouraged a mainland tourist to shop at a branch of the same company nearby in order to avoid crowds of Japanese tourists dependent on Japanese-language assistance. Wrongly assuming discrimination, he sarcastically asked the woman whether the store was owned by a Japanese. “No,” she said in all innocence, “I think he’s Jewish.” She apparently assumed that “Japanese” was an ethnic label and that she was merely responding along the same categorical lines. The man, who, unbeknownst to her, was himself Jewish, exploded in indignation. She asked me what she had done wrong. I chuckled and said: “It’s a bit hard to explain…”

    • #58
  29. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):Trust the NYT?

     

    <whispers> Psst, Bryan: it’s not really much of a scandal if they disclosed that they changed the headline:

    Somehow, your very selective screenshot of Goldberg’s column left this part of the column out. Weird!

    It wouldn’t be relevant except you used this selectively cropped screenshot in a comment in which you were trying to make a point about alleged selective editing of a video. 👍

    Was the disclosure really as microscopic as it seems on my iPhone?  If @blueyeti had not referred to it, I doubt I would have noticed it.

    • #59
  30. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Taras (View Comment):

    Blue Yeti (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):Trust the NYT?

     

    <whispers> Psst, Bryan: it’s not really much of a scandal if they disclosed that they changed the headline:

    Somehow, your very selective screenshot of Goldberg’s column left this part of the column out. Weird!

    It wouldn’t be relevant except you used this selectively cropped screenshot in a comment in which you were trying to make a point about alleged selective editing of a video. 👍

    Was the disclosure really as microscopic as it seems on my iPhone? If @ blueyeti had not referred to it, I doubt I would have noticed it.

     Huh my point words you can’t trust The New York Times. I’m not quite sure you’ve demonstrated anything other than you can’t trust The New York Times. If the same article can be labeled with both headlines then one of those headlines There’s a problem.

    • #60
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