Vox Senior Politics Reporter Jane Coaston joins the Remnant for a discussion of racism, conservatism, liberalism, and America.

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There are 49 comments.

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  1. Joseph Stocks Member

    A few thoughts on this podcast:

     

    1. I’m glad that we have a conservative and a liberal coming together to do a long form conversation (side note: while Jonah’s Trump analysis is tiresome and I don’t think he sees the irony in criticizing Anton’s Flight 93 election while creating a Revelation-like podcast called The Remnant which is just like Anton’s apocalyptic vision, I still love Jonah and consider him in the most tribalistic sense, ‘on our team’)

     

    2. The podcast revealed something; we have a dearth of liberal intellectuals. Jane Coaston seems nice enough but I couldn’t help but notice the shallowness in her thinking. I live by the Reagan credo, “specificity is the soul of credibility” and so many times Coaston made the claim that racism pervades the conservative movement and Jonah would ask for specifics and the best she could do was name Iowa Congressman Steve King and Corey Stewart who sits atop the august and powerful Board of Supervisors of Prince William County in Virginia. If that is all the specifics you can come up with then you have a bad argument.

     

    3. Jonah has hit at this a few times and that is now, more so than the past, conservatives don’t care when they are called a racist. Jonah believes this not caring is evidence in some sort of embrace of white identity politics. This is a huge non sequitur. Kevin Williamson, in one of his reasons for leaving social media was that the majority of people argue in bad faith. So, when conservatives like me stopped caring about being called a racist it wasn’t because we embraced white nationalism but because we stopped arguing with people who we know are arguing in bad faith. I’d rather read Shakespeare or Dostoevsky than waste my time on twitter. 

    • #1
    • August 5, 2019, at 9:21 AM PST
    • 16 likes
  2. kedavis Member

    Jane Coaston says near the end that 80% of blacks think Trump’s tweets are racist.

    Is that the same 80% (or more) who vote Democrat, all the time, no matter what?

    I’m not surprised. Is anyone else?

    More to the point, what is it supposed to prove? Seems like little or nothing.

    • #2
    • August 5, 2019, at 10:44 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  3. Jeff Hawkins Coolidge

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jane Coaston says near the end that 80% of blacks think Trump’s tweets are racist.

    If 80 percent of Republicans thought Democrats were child molesters does it make Democrats child molesters? Does it mean Democrats must now shape their message to avoid criticism that they’re child molesters. It doesn’t make it a fact or a legitimate concern. It makes it an opinion.

    Just reject the hypothesis (hat tip: Quentin Tarantino). It’s the same game for almost ANY loaded question. “Left wingers think you’re a monster, spurned on by disingenuous reporting by my profession, now defend it Mr. Fair Minded Conservative.” If you don’t buy into the premise, you never have to defend it.

    All of our brainy punditry and no one seems to know how to play this game.

    A few episodes ago with the Tea Party and “racism” conversation where Jonah gave lip service to an entirely false premise (did we forget the origins of The Tea Party started under Bush)

    A “journalist” will play someone who thinks they have good intentions:

    “The Tea Party is racist”

    “No, it was a movement about high taxes and spending”

    “But there were racists in the Tea Party”

    “Well yes”

    “My point stands”

    Jonah really selling this new venture as Bulwark-lite with this nonsense and the last podcast. 

    • #3
    • August 5, 2019, at 11:03 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  4. Joseph Eagar Member

    The Democratic Party has spent five years promising to use nonwhite immigration as a weapon. They sparked an enormous race panic all on their own.  White people didn’t panic because of racism or right-wingers; white nationalists had been making similar arguments for years to no avail. What made people panic was when progressives started saying the same things. There’s a difference between the man on a soap box and the senior leadership of the Democratic Party.

     

    • #4
    • August 5, 2019, at 11:05 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  5. thelonious Member

    Enjoyed this pod. She at least seemed thoughtful and not a complete reactionary race baiter.

    • #5
    • August 5, 2019, at 11:55 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  6. kedavis Member

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Enjoyed this pod. She at least seemed thoughtful and not a complete reactionary race baiter.

    Is it sufficient for you to consider her “thoughtful,” if she says she doesn’t believe Elijah Mohammed is orbiting Earth aboard the Mother Wheel?

    That’s a pretty low standard.

    • #6
    • August 5, 2019, at 12:46 PM PST
    • Like
  7. Joseph Stocks Member

    A few of you have mentioned Coaston’s claim towards the end of the podcast about 80% of blacks believing Trump’s tweets are racist and it hits on an important cultural pillar that is being built; person of color’s authenticity and authority.

    This pillar is largely constructed by white liberals and it goes like this, a black person can say something that the white liberal knows is false or even crazy and the white liberal nods and acts astounded at the brilliance of this person of color’s intellect. 

    I noticed this when I was in the Army and there was a very racially diverse environment and a lot of time to just talk. A black guy (usually a black guy) would say something obviously false and I would say it’s false or it didn’t make any sense. And the first reaction by everyone in the group was to call me a racist, it was reflexive for them. I wasn’t astounded at the supposed brilliance so I must believe in the racial inferiority of the person I was criticizing. 

    The point Coaston misses is that this racial charge is repeated many times as a defensive mechanism shielding anyone from critical thought. I got really close with a black guy from New York and he told me in private that I was the only guy to call his opinions lazy and crazy and he was so shocked at first that he just assumed I was a racist. It was only after YEARS of talking with him that he realized I was the person taking him seriously and he got a lot smarter because he began to investigate some of his whacky beliefs. 

    Coaston saying that 80% of blacks believe Trump’s tweets are racist is largely the product of this pillar of authority. And what’s throwing some people for a loop is we are fully embracing the Andrew Breibart’s dictum to false, slanderous charges; so?

    ‘80% of blacks believe Trump’s tweets are racist!’ So?

    ‘I believe you are a racist!’ So?

    ‘I believe your movement is saturated by racists!’ So?

    • #7
    • August 5, 2019, at 12:49 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  8. Barry Jones Thatcher

    The lady seems to live in a glass house – her side “nothing to see here”, the other side “whoa! big problem!” Also, if all these Democrats suddenly became Republicans (usually in context of the South), why did it take Georgia (for instance) until the 20o2 to elect a Republican Governor? Grow up and think of something original, please. 

    • #8
    • August 5, 2019, at 1:18 PM PST
    • 1 like
  9. kedavis Member

    Joseph Stocks (View Comment):

    A few of you have mentioned Coaston’s claim towards the end of the podcast about 80% of blacks believing Trump’s tweets are racist and it hits on an important cultural pillar that is being built; person of color’s authenticity and authority.

    This pillar is largely constructed by white liberals and it goes like this, a black person can say something that the white liberal knows is false or even crazy and the white liberal nods and acts astounded at the brilliance of this person of color’s intellect.

    This would seem to explain a lot of the Obama campaign and presidency too.

    Dennis Prager has related a similar example in the past, on his radio show. I don’t know if he still does. It was about being at a radio station (I think it was radio, might have been TV) that was doing some polling, market research or something. Prager noticed that there were no black people in the group being used at that time. When he asked the manager (station manager, marketing manager, whatever) about that, he was told that they didn’t “mix” polling groups because they had found that especially white people in such groups would not openly disagree with what the black group members said.

    • #9
    • August 5, 2019, at 1:28 PM PST
    • 1 like
  10. Barry Jones Thatcher

    ‘Nother thought, then I’ll be quiet…What is her definition of racist? I get the feeling that it is anything she wants it to be and I doubt she has an actual definition (only half way thru the podcast and maybe she does, but it isn’t clear so far).

    • #10
    • August 5, 2019, at 1:34 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  11. kedavis Member

    Barry Jones (View Comment):

    ‘Nother thought, then I’ll be quiet…What is her definition of racist? I get the feeling that it is anything she wants it to be and I doubt she has an actual definition (only half way thru the podcast and maybe she does, but it isn’t clear so far).

    You expect her – or anyone else – to have a definition of racism?

    Why, you racist!

    • #11
    • August 5, 2019, at 1:48 PM PST
    • 1 like
  12. Woolfolk Inactive

    Joseph Stocks (View Comment):

    A few of you have mentioned Coaston’s claim towards the end of the podcast about 80% of blacks believing Trump’s tweets are racist and it hits on an important cultural pillar that is being built; person of color’s authenticity and authority.

    This pillar is largely constructed by white liberals and it goes like this, a black person can say something that the white liberal knows is false or even crazy and the white liberal nods and acts astounded at the brilliance of this person of color’s intellect.

    I noticed this when I was in the Army and there was a very racially diverse environment and a lot of time to just talk. A black guy (usually a black guy) would say something obviously false and I would say it’s false or it didn’t make any sense. And the first reaction by everyone in the group was to call me a racist, it was reflexive for them. I wasn’t astounded at the supposed brilliance so I must believe in the racial inferiority of the person I was criticizing.

    The point Coaston misses is that this racial charge is repeated many times as a defensive mechanism shielding anyone from critical thought. I got really close with a black guy from New York and he told me in private that I was the only guy to call his opinions lazy and crazy and he was so shocked at first that he just assumed I was a racist. It was only after YEARS of talking with him that he realized I was the person taking him seriously and he got a lot smarter because he began to investigate some of his whacky beliefs.

    Coaston saying that 80% of blacks believe Trump’s tweets are racist is largely the product of this pillar of authority. And what’s throwing some people for a loop is we are fully embracing the Andrew Breibart’s dictum to false, slanderous charges; so?

    ‘80% of blacks believe Trump’s tweets are racist!’ So?

    ‘I believe you are a racist!’ So?

    ‘I believe your movement is saturated by racists!’ So?

     

    • #12
    • August 5, 2019, at 2:47 PM PST
    • Like
  13. Cato Rand Reagan

    Joseph Stocks (View Comment):

    A few thoughts on this podcast:

     

    1. I’m glad that we have a conservative and a liberal coming together to do a long form conversation (side note: while Jonah’s Trump analysis is tiresome and I don’t think he sees the irony in criticizing Anton’s Flight 93 election while creating a Revelation-like podcast called The Remnant which is just like Anton’s apocalyptic vision, I still love Jonah and consider him in the most tribalistic sense, ‘on our team’)

     

    2. The podcast revealed something; we have a dearth of liberal intellectuals. Jane Coaston seems nice enough but I couldn’t help but notice the shallowness in her thinking. I live by the Reagan credo, “specificity is the soul of credibility” and so many times Coaston made the claim that racism pervades the conservative movement and Jonah would ask for specifics and the best she could do was name Iowa Congressman Steve King and Corey Stewart who sits atop the august and powerful Board of Supervisors of Prince William County in Virginia. If that is all the specifics you can come up with then you have a bad argument.

     

    3. Jonah has hit at this a few times and that is now, more so than the past, conservatives don’t care when they are called a racist. Jonah believes this not caring is evidence in some sort of embrace of white identity politics. This is a huge non sequitur. Kevin Williamson, in one of his reasons for leaving social media was that the majority of people argue in bad faith. So, when conservatives like me stopped caring about being called a racist it wasn’t because we embraced white nationalism but because we stopped arguing with people who we know are arguing in bad faith. I’d rather read Shakespeare or Dostoevsky than waste my time on twitter.

    I am in violent agreement with your point #2. I don’t usually comment on these podcast threads because it seems like the podcasters never read them but I came here because I just had to ask someone, somewhere “did she actually say anything?” She literally had nothing. I’m not sure she was worth the time. Which is too bad because when I saw the title of this podcast I had high hopes it would be enlightening.

    I’m not sure I’m with you on #3. I read/listen to most of what Jonah says and writes for public consumption and I can’t think of when he’s claimed that those on the right who’ve become numb to the racism charge have done so because they’ve embraced white nationalism.

    • #13
    • August 5, 2019, at 3:21 PM PST
    • 1 like
  14. kedavis Member

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I’m not sure I’m with you on #3. I read/listen to most of what Jonah says and writes for public consumption and I can’t think of when he’s claimed that those on the right who’ve become numb to the racism charge have done so because they’ve embraced white nationalism.

    I’m not sure about that, but Jonah often sounds like he believes Trump is racist and that somehow his supporters therefore are/must be too.

    • #14
    • August 5, 2019, at 3:34 PM PST
    • 1 like
  15. kedavis Member

    For that matter, “Vox Senior Politics Reporter” reminds me of old jokes about “Best Gas Station Sushi In Kentucky” etc.

    If I thought Vox had any credibility, I’d read Vox.

    • #15
    • August 5, 2019, at 4:21 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  16. Joseph Eagar Member

    I have this quote from the NYT pinned to my Twitter profile:

    Image

    This is the Democratic Party’s message on race, and it has been for years. The panic among white people over demographic change didn’t really get going until progressives started saying the same things white nationalists were: that rich white people planned to use demographic change to cleanse America of lower-status whites.

    Of course the idea is absurd; for one thing, most Hispanics will probably end up assimilating into the white population; for another, the Democratic Party’s long-term strategy relies on permanent 90% black support, but blacks are the ones most harmed by the Dem’s pandering to Hispanics and wealthy white progressives. Either the Dems will suffer defections from blacks or they will from Hispanics, and the numbers are such that even a relatively small number of defections will completely destroy the viability of their strategy.

    Nonetheless, that so many powerful people said so many bigoted things–remember that at the time they controlled the White House–is going to haunt our politics for decades to come, if it doesn’t cause the country to collapse just as the Soviet Union did.

     

     

     

     

    • #16
    • August 5, 2019, at 6:28 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  17. ExcitableBoy Member

    We need more precise language to differentiate between (1) racist intent, (2) innocent ignorance of how people from different races perceive things, and (3) disparate impact from racially neutral policies. They got close to saying this, but when liberals call things racist using definition numbers 2 and 3 and conservatives react to definition 1, the conversation is over before it begins. Most conservatives (and probably most non-political white people) do not accept definitions 2 and 3 as racist, as far as I can tell. Jane called racism a descriptor with shades of grey but the difference among these is one of kind, not degree. 

    • #17
    • August 5, 2019, at 7:40 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  18. Dr. Strangelove Thatcher

    Jeff Hawkins (View Comment):

    A few episodes ago with the Tea Party and “racism” conversation where Jonah gave lip service to an entirely false premise (did we forget the origins of The Tea Party started under Bush)

    Well, there were two forms of the tea parties.

    Ron Paul and his, uh, fans, (that’s a CoC compliant euphemism) had events Ron Paul called “tea parties”.

    And then the election of the Red Diaper baby, Barack Obama, triggered a massive release of pro-American antibodies into America’s bloodstream that collectively became known as the 912 Movement and the Tea Party.

    These were two very different things that have the same name. It’s important to distance the Tea Party Movement that emerged after 2008 from whatever it was that Ron Paul was up to.

    • #18
    • August 5, 2019, at 10:05 PM PST
    • Like
  19. JosePluma Thatcher

    Barry Jones (View Comment):

    The lady seems to live in a glass house – her side “nothing to see here”, the other side “whoa! big problem!” Also, if all these Democrats suddenly became Republicans (usually in context of the South), why did it take Georgia (for instance) until the 20o2 to elect a Republican Governor? Grow up and think of something original, please.

    Two events this week:

    A CNN panel after the Demoncrat debate that basically said A) If you voted for Trump, you’re racist, and B) If you voted for Obama and you’re white, you are just virtue-signaling and therefore still racist. If no matter what you do, you are racist, why bother trying. That’s not “doubling down, by the way.

    Donna Brazile was on The Five Monday afternoon. After clips of Cory Booker and Robert O’Rourke calling Big Orange a racist and blaming him for El Paso and Dayton were shown, she said that the inflammatory language needs to stop. Was she talking about Spartacus or Beta? No, of course not. The prez. is apparently the only person in the entire country who is using inflammatory language.

    No wonder we’ve stopped caring about being called racist. All the term means now is “I don’t have a response to your argument.”

    • #19
    • August 6, 2019, at 12:19 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  20. Cato Rand Reagan

    ExcitableBoy (View Comment):

    We need more precise language to differentiate between (1) racist intent, (2) innocent ignorance of how people from different races perceive things, and (3) disparate impact from racially neutral policies. They got close to saying this, but when liberals call things racist using definition numbers 2 and 3 and conservatives react to definition 1, the conversation is over before it begins. Most conservatives (and probably most non-political white people) do not accept definitions 2 and 3 as racist, as far as I can tell. Jane called racism a descriptor with shades of grey but the difference among these is one of kind, not degree.

    I remember them directly addressing disparate impact and it seemed fairly clear to me that she considered any disparate impact racist and Jonah didn’t, though he didn’t want to make an issue of it for purposes of the podcast.

    But she kept using a phrase – I wanna say “instrumental racism” though I’d have to go back and check – that I didn’t understand her definition for. Does anybody remember this or know how she was defining it?

    • #20
    • August 6, 2019, at 5:54 AM PST
    • Like
  21. Cato Rand Reagan

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    Barry Jones (View Comment):

    The lady seems to live in a glass house – her side “nothing to see here”, the other side “whoa! big problem!” Also, if all these Democrats suddenly became Republicans (usually in context of the South), why did it take Georgia (for instance) until the 20o2 to elect a Republican Governor? Grow up and think of something original, please.

    Two events this week:

    A CNN panel after the Demoncrat debate that basically said A) If you voted for Trump, you’re racist, and B) If you voted for Obama and you’re white, you are just virtue-signaling and therefore still racist. If no matter what you do, you are racist, why bother trying. That’s not “doubling down, by the way.

    I think this is important. She simply assumed that anyone who’d stopped cowering before the charge of racism was doubling down. I’m sure there are some double downers out there but for a lot of us it’s more what you describe – “giving up.” That doesn’t require adopting racist views. It just means ceasing to care about the bad faith charges of racism that are constantly lobbed your way. Entirely different phenomena. I wish Jonah had made that distinction although I understand why – in getting a guest from the “other side” – he elects to just bit his tongue and let her say her piece.

    • #21
    • August 6, 2019, at 6:06 AM PST
    • 1 like
  22. Cato Rand Reagan

    Ok so if you go to Vox and read the article that prompted this appearance she answers my question. The term is “instrumentalized racism” and it apparently refers to using racist appeals to attract voters. I’m assuming the Willie Horton ad would be the sort of thing she’d claim qualifies.

    • #22
    • August 6, 2019, at 6:15 AM PST
    • 1 like
  23. Lazy_Millennial Member

    For those who don’t follow Coaston regularly, it’s noteworthy that she edited a conservative newspaper in college, and it was attending an editor’s conference where she realized that conservatism wasn’t for her. The gap between conservative ideas and policies, and what conservatives actually did about and talked about, was too much for her. 

    • #23
    • August 6, 2019, at 7:15 AM PST
    • Like
  24. Jeff Hawkins Coolidge

    Lazy_Millennial (View Comment):

    For those who don’t follow Coaston regularly, it’s noteworthy that she edited a conservative newspaper in college, and it was attending an editor’s conference where she realized that conservatism wasn’t for her. The gap between conservative ideas and policies, and what conservatives actually did about and talked about, was too much for her.

    The second sentence is “I’m not a conservative, or a Republican, in the Paul Ryan–Carly Fiorina “Why yes, I do identify with the Empire in Star Wars” sense.

    I have my doubts this was a “come to Jesus” moment vs. the path of least resistance re: “I come from a long line of blue-collar union Democrats and socialist academics. “

     

    • #24
    • August 6, 2019, at 10:42 AM PST
    • 1 like
  25. Joseph Eagar Member

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ok so if you go to Vox and read the article that prompted this appearance she answers my question. The term is “instrumentalized racism” and it apparently refers to using racist appeals to attract voters. I’m assuming the Willie Horton ad would be the sort of thing she’d claim qualifies.

    To people on the left, all dissent is “instrumentalized racism.” Objecting to blatant racism directed at the right is “instrumentalized racism.” Leftists can joke about ethnic cleansing, but when people on the right object it’s “instrumentalized racism.”

    I’m sick of it. The same people who say concerns about immigration is racist will then go on to say that socioeconomically distressed areas need to be “repopulated” by immigrants. If the First Amendment means we have to tolerate this kind of cruel gaslighting by the progressive upper class then I have to wonder if it’s really such a good thing.

    • #25
    • August 6, 2019, at 11:37 AM PST
    • Like
  26. kedavis Member

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ok so if you go to Vox and read the article that prompted this appearance she answers my question. The term is “instrumentalized racism” and it apparently refers to using racist appeals to attract voters. I’m assuming the Willie Horton ad would be the sort of thing she’d claim qualifies.

    The Willie Horton stuff that was originated by Al Gore?

    • #26
    • August 6, 2019, at 12:32 PM PST
    • Like
  27. kedavis Member

    Jeff Hawkins (View Comment):

    Lazy_Millennial (View Comment):

    For those who don’t follow Coaston regularly, it’s noteworthy that she edited a conservative newspaper in college, and it was attending an editor’s conference where she realized that conservatism wasn’t for her. The gap between conservative ideas and policies, and what conservatives actually did about and talked about, was too much for her.

    The second sentence is “I’m not a conservative, or a Republican, in the Paul Ryan–Carly Fiorina “Why yes, I do identify with the Empire in Star Wars” sense.

     

    Someone who applies that definition to conservative is just not worth paying attention to.

    • #27
    • August 6, 2019, at 12:36 PM PST
    • 1 like
  28. JuliaBlaschke Coolidge

    I think it is pretty stupid to think that the main reason the Tea Party objected to Obama was race. You have an arrogant, foolish, ill-educated, Democrat with a lot of really stupid, dangerous ideas but they didn’t like him because he is black? Speaking for myself, I supported the Tea Party because I thought Obama was a huge mistake. About the only thing I liked about him was the fact that he was black because I hoped it would help to heal the wounds of racism. But it did the opposite. 

    As for Corey Stewart, how ironic that Ms. Coaston picked him as her example when we ended up with Ralph Northam! Talk about racism not being a problem for the DNC. 

    A lot of these problems would go away if more people took the time to vote in primaries. Otherwise you get fringe voters selecting candidates. 

    • #28
    • August 6, 2019, at 1:02 PM PST
    • 1 like
  29. TallCon Coolidge

    This was a good podcast to hear (I thought). These days it’s nice to hear people talking to each other instead of shouting at each other.

    That said: I want specifics on how different the opposition to the bailouts and the ACA (by whatever form it would have taken) would have been different under H. Clinton or Biden? You can’t tell me I was suddenly opposing everything I had been opposing ten minutes ago because now it’s a black guy.

    Also, the data point I will never forget: There was the Tea Party rally in Phoenix, AZ where photo of a fellow carrying a rifle (was it an AR-15?) was clear and deciding evidence that the Tea Party was racist. Only the photo was cropped so you couldn’t tell that the fellow was black.

    • #29
    • August 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM PST
    • 1 like
  30. Jeff Hawkins Coolidge

    JuliaBlaschke (View Comment):

    I think it is pretty stupid to think that the main reason the Tea Party objected to Obama was race.

    Doesn’t matter if it’s true, it matters if it is an effective narrative. And it was.

    • #30
    • August 6, 2019, at 4:19 PM PST
    • 1 like
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