James Kirchick is the author of an important new book: “The End of Europe: Dictators, Demagogues, and the Coming Dark Age.” He and Jay talk it over: the nationalist-authoritarians and their “pope,” Vladimir Putin; Madame Le Pen in France; the role of Germany; the importance of Ukraine.

Is Greece a goner? Is the EU anything but a menace? What about the Americans?

Toward the end of the podcast, Jay observes something about Jean-François Revel: One of the reasons he wrote his books was to sound alarms. To rouse people from their slumber before it was too late. Jamie Kirchick’s book shares this nature. Hear him out.

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There are 10 comments.

  1. Ario IronStar Inactive

    Finally, at the very end of the conversation, there is the admission regarding Muslim immigration, to paraphrase Mark Steyn (whom I’m sure Jay detests), if respectable politicians refuse to address concerns of the people, the people will turn to unrespectable ones.

    It is notable that there was no connection between French anti-semitism and Islam. This is ball peen hammer idiocy.

    Most of the conversation seems driven by a hatred for Donald Trump. Ironically, most of the elitist policies supported by the interlocutors in this podcast (open-borders, multiculturalism, anti-democratic central bureaucracy and regulation) are integral to the root causes driving the turn to perceived neo-fascism.

    • #1
    • February 18, 2017, at 10:10 AM PST
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  2. PHCheese Member

    Muslims and the rest of humanity are not compatible at this juncture of time. Period.

    • #2
    • February 18, 2017, at 11:52 AM PST
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  3. Unprofitable Servant Thatcher

    Excellent interview! Great points, especially the last part of the dialogue. I’d ask you both to dig deeper than your idealism – there are realistic concerns like national survival that you gloss over. This is not 1945 where we were unscathed by war and where we could edict and arbitrate the peace from a position of military and economic strength. We are victims of our own success and we can afford to be sanguine, idealistic and liberal from afar….but will we back it up like we did prior to 1989 or 2001? Are we not obligated under Article V to defend the blood and soil of Poland and the Baltics? Are words like “democracy”, “liberalism”, etc just fig leafs for raw national interest? Trust me, our Allies are just as nationalistic as the Russians. The fight for blood and soil. The other comments capture the deeper issues. A few my minor quibbles on my part:

    1. The first “blood and soil” post Cold War land grab was the creation of Kosovo. We undermined our own world order rules in 1999. Oops.
    2. The Baltics are not “mother Russia”… that is why we never recognized them as part of the USSR… But, Crimea is mother Russia…Yalta-vacation home of the Tsars – it was only administratively transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in the Soviet Days. This is no justification, but pointing out a harsh reality. Blood and soil do matter to people.
    3. Europe without Europeans (Germany without Germans, France without French, England without English, etc…) is the future- that includes the illiberal worldviews of the new arrivals filling the population vacuum.
    • #3
    • February 18, 2017, at 12:51 PM PST
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  4. Unprofitable Servant Thatcher

    Ario IronStar (View Comment):
    Finally, at the very end of the conversation, there is the admission regarding Muslim immigration, to paraphrase Mark Steyn (whom I’m sure Jay detests), if respectable politicians refuse to address concerns of the people, the people will turn to unrespectable ones.

    It is notable that there was no connection between French anti-semitism and Islam. This is ball peen hammer idiocy.

    Most of the conversation seems driven by a hatred for Donald Trump. Ironically, most of the elitist policies supported by the interlocutors in this podcast (open-borders, multiculturalism, anti-democratic central bureaucracy and regulation) are integral to the root causes driving the turn to perceived neo-fascism.

    people like to forget that Trump is a result not a cause….a result of 25 years of a vacation from History; much blame to go around on all sides

    • #4
    • February 18, 2017, at 1:16 PM PST
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  5. Hang On Member
    Hang On Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    This is truly a tour de force in lies and deceptions by an NRO never Trump neocon and some guy from the Daily Beast (!!!) that would have done Putin proud.

    Orban backed away from liberal democracy precisely because it has the same problems communism does – it is utiopian ideology that leads to very bad places for flesh and blood people because of the faulty assumptions it makes about human nature. Western liberal democracy is western – it is not universal. You start bringing in millions of those committed to an alternative ideology and you have nothing but chaos and worse. But you would rather hang on to your dreamy ideology rather than face reality as Orban has. What if during the Cold War we had decided to bring in millions of communists. How would that have worked out? What is it that these western liberal democratic leaders have done that is any different from that. You two are immensely thick.

    @Ario IronStar has pointed out that the anti-antisemitism problems of France from Le Pen are mild compared to those of this same group of illiberal non-westerners the liberal democratic leaders have insisted on allowing in. Truly amazing dishonesty. But what should one expect from Nordlinger?

    • #5
    • February 18, 2017, at 4:07 PM PST
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  6. Hang On Member
    Hang On Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    And then Greece and its problems: Was the Daily Beast guy channeling Schäubele or merely parroting him? More total and complete deception. Who allowed Greece into the Euro? And the problem of the Euro is far more fundamental – no common fiscal policy and one currency. These Eurocrats are working to centralize all of this in Brussels and you two insipid characters start talking about the right-wing parties centralizing things. Unbelievable the dishonesty. It is certainly true that Greece lied about its fiscal position. Imagine what the EU dreamers would have had on their hands if Ukraine had gotten in. Now that would have made Greece seem like very small potatoes. But it’s not too late for you two.

    Why should Germany spend any more on its military when it has been able to conquer all of the continent without firing a shot and with the willing help of US administrations? When you see what Germany has done to Italy and Spain as well as Greece with our willful participation, our past leaders really do have a lot to answer for. And you two would have us keep it up.

    And then there is the point of war and peace: You think this monstrosity of an EU is going to last? It will break apart and then there is every likelihood of war unless it is disassembled.

    • #6
    • February 18, 2017, at 4:13 PM PST
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  7. DrR Thatcher
    DrR

    Fascinating discussion! Thank you, Jay!

    • #7
    • February 19, 2017, at 7:16 AM PST
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  8. I Walton Member

    Ario IronStar (View Comment):
    Finally, at the very end of the conversation, there is the admission regarding Muslim immigration, to paraphrase Mark Steyn (whom I’m sure Jay detests), if respectable politicians refuse to address concerns of the people, the people will turn to unrespectable ones.

    It is notable that there was no connection between French anti-semitism and Islam. This is ball peen hammer idiocy.

    Most of the conversation seems driven by a hatred for Donald Trump. Ironically, most of the elitist policies supported by the interlocutors in this podcast (open-borders, multiculturalism, anti-democratic central bureaucracy and regulation) are integral to the root causes driving the turn to perceived neo-fascism.

    Exactly my reaction on every one of your comments. Finally they get the main point of the whole problem which they misdiagnose throughout the discussion.

    • #8
    • February 20, 2017, at 3:41 AM PST
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  9. I Walton Member

    Where’s Claire. We should hear from her on this.

    Unprofitable servant

    Great comments..

    The discussion was insightful about a certain branch of conservatism. They almost forgot that Europe is committing suicide and seem to fear those who are taking notice more than the causes. Demography. They also confuse the negative impact of the EU with the positive reality of the EC. Europe is too big, too diverse, too tribal to form a single political cultural entity but free trade is essential as is the rule of law and security that comes from military alliance and good local government. Remote meddling governance whether here or there has little redeeming social value but small states may find it useful to use a larger stable currency rather than try to manage their own. They do not need Brussels to do so, nor to join NATO, nor to enjoy free flow of goods. People flows are different. They have got to come to grips with it and reverse it.

    • #9
    • February 20, 2017, at 4:13 AM PST
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  10. Titus Techera Contributor

    Mr. Nordlinger, I’ve listened to your stimulating interview with Mr. Kirchik. It is rewarding to hear from people who do not wish to abandon Europe just now! But I disagree with many of Mr. Kirchik’s views & I would be grateful for a chance, if you can arrange it, to offer an alternative view of European affairs to the audience of Q&A.

    I’m one of the few Ricochet members with wide experience of European politics. I’m from Bucharest, a grad student in pol.sci studies, with a stint in Brussels, & a liberal arts stint in Berlin. I’ve been pitting my knowledge of European affairs agaisnt Mr. Kirchik’s in listening to your interview & I wish to say, at the very least, there’s another view of things that is entirely missing from his presentation!

    Of course, the man has his book & his experience & his views–I do not knock him–perhaps he is right & I am wrong where we disagree… But the overall effect of the interview on me has been this. I started listening saying to myself, gratefully: Thank goodness there is a man of experience here to correct, gently, some of the more brusque intellectual gestures of American conservatism, & to educate us all on European affairs! But I often ended up saying to myself: Well, this fellow leaves out of discussion important things & substitutes one American view for another, with little or no mention of European views of the affairs he’s discussing!

    • #10
    • February 21, 2017, at 12:08 PM PST
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