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One more thing.
Why are Giuliani and Bennett are doing what they are doing? Hint: it starts with the letter “H”.
Are you really trying to present yourself as reasonable? You can’t imagine what’s going on? You’re not expected to agree. We expect you to vociferously argue against. But you can’t even imagine what’s going on?
I had initially skipped forward and hadn’t heard the reference to Bill Bennett’s “moral preening” comment. On this, I agree with Bennett.
Yes, and you are enjoying it now. If you don’t think that’s how you sound, you are truly oblivious. Hint #2: that tends to relieve depression a bit. “Most enjoyable. Most Enjoyable.” “Agreed. Agreed.”
Mussolini. Hitler. You think this makes you sound reasonable?
And Mona wants to hear from the open-minded. Comedy Gold.
By the way, it’s Viktor Frankl. Even people holding their nose for Trump can remember that much.
Mona/Jay, just thought I’d let you know that I love your podcast and have been listening for a long time. It is great to hear intelligent conservative voices that too often get drowned out by the Hannity’s of the world. Keep it up!
Why do you think that insulting Mona and Jay will change their minds? They’re very smart people, they can see what’s going on, and it’s breaking their hearts.
Here’s the bottom line. Trump needs to exceed P. J. O’Rourke’s opinion of Hillary Clinton: “She’s wrong about absolutely everything, but she’s wrong within normal parameters.” Trump’s got about two and a half months to convince very smart and very reasonable people like Mona Charen, Jay Nordlinger, and P. J. O’Rourke that he will not flagrantly abuse every bit of power he’s given far beyond “Corrupt” Hillary’s wildest dreams.
I love your podcast (it is sparklingly brilliant!) and agree with every single criticism you have made of Trump. But, I am with Bennett and Prager and Bill McGurn. You both have huge blind spots when it comes to the practical consequences of your #nevertrump position. You imagine there is some third outcome possible besides Trump or Clinton. You are in error. You are both living in a world that does not exist. We lost to Trump in the primaries and we would love to say “we told you so” to his nasty true believers (and it is true, we did say so). Too bad, but no, the world in which the choice is not binary does not exist. (See the pitiful “strategy” laid out by Evan McEwin in the flagship podcast. He thinks he is going to win enough states from Clinton and Trump to throw it to the House, where he thinks neither Clinton nor Trump will emerge! But he names only states he would win that otherwise would go to Trump.)
I must add that your pearl-clutching horror over having had your integrity called into question by Bill Bennett is rather rich. You hold the reciprocal view to us reluctant Trump voters. One gets the clear impression that you think we (the Bills, Dennis, and we of like mind) are lacking in integrity. Please give that some thought.
See my response to Ario in #33 above. I think that it applies to your comment as well.
Mona and Jay’s podcast has become a non-stop insult fest. Perhaps you don’t see that because to you it’s perfectly appropriate. Maybe you have other reasons. I don’t know.
But Mona and Jay are the ones who nodded along when their guest explicitly compared Trump to Mussolini and Hitler.
When is it appropriate to compare someone to Hitler? When they want to kill the Jews. Who wants that? A great deal of the leadership in the Middle East, along with the Islamist parties. Who’s tight with them? Hillary. Her right-hand gal is in deep and has been clearly sympatico. Hillary kissed Arafat’s wife as she slandered the Jews.
I’m not calling Hillary “Hitler” even at that. For Jay and Mona to do it is a sign of derangement.
Mona and Jay’s podcast has become a non-stop insult fest. Perhaps you don’t see that because to you it’s perfectly appropriate. Maybe you have other reasons. I don’t know.
But Mona and Jay are the ones who nodded along when their guest explicitly compared Trump to Mussolini and Hitler.
When is it appropriate to compare someone to Hitler? When they want to kill the Jews. Who wants that? A great deal of the leadership in the Middle East, along with the Islamist parties. Who’s tight with them? Hillary. Her right-hand gal is in deep and has been clearly sympatico. Hillary kissed Arafat’s wife as she slandered the Jews.
I’m not calling Hillary “Hitler” even at that. For Jay and Mona to do it to Trump is a sign of derangement.
It’s not breaking their hearts. They are reveling in their supposed prescience (which they had none of when predicting a Trump primary implosion) while insulting everyone who doesn’t share their view. They give a perfunctory, “Oh, Hillary is just awful,” and continue in smug condescension. They should be engaging in some soul searching as to how the voters in their (former) party ended up nominating an erratic narcissist. Blaming the voters is lazy, stupid, and pointless.
“…far beyond “Corrupt” Hillary’s wildest dreams.”
Are the scare quotes around corrupt a tell? Are you suggesting that Hillary is not really that corrupt? Is O’Rourke suggesting that the Clinton Foundation and related shenanigans are “within the normal parameters”?
Hillary will get away with everything she tries to do (like Obama) because there is a machine behind her protecting her. Trump has no such apparatus. There may be other arguments to prefer Hillary to Trump, but that one has no basis in reality.
I am strident because people who have been thoughtful and considerate for the most part in the past are behaving in a disgraceful way. It is not their opinion of Trump I hold against them. It is their simultaneously arrogant and vile conduct towards others that has brought them so low in my view.
Ario, why on earth do you listen to the podcast if you find it so insufferable? And who gives you the right or the omniscience to tell us what other people are enjoying or how they are feeling? Who is being arrogant here?
And Ario, you obviously don’t understand the concept of an analogy. The lessons of history are almost never one-to-one comparisons. We can compare what is happening now to what happened in the thirties without suggesting that Trump is exactly like Hitler, right down to the policy of killing the Jews. Is our historical analogy too politically incorrect for you?
It’s probably pointless to state this, because you obviously claim to know how we really feel and what we really believe (we speak in code and dog whistles, you know), but for those of us who are #NeverTrump, this election is a nightmare. I am not hoping for anyone to come along and save us, because the disaster has already happened. How dare you accuse us of enjoying this. As Charlie put it, yes, we’re really enjoying seeing everything we’ve worked for fall apart.
I don’t attack those who feel they must hold their noses and vote for Trump (the “lie back and think of the Supreme Court” argument). I don’t even attack my friends who think Trump is wonderful (though I think that, in this, they are terribly wrong). Why do people like you feel the need to attack those of us who feel differently? If you can’t stand the discomfort of people feeling differently than you do, please confine yourself to Fox News and Breitbart.
Mona, Jay is right. We do exist.
I understand analogy. Go ahead and compare Trump to any number of demagogues. Go ahead and make comparisons between someone’s policy positions and, e.g., the economic ideology of Fascism. But comparing someone to Hitler, especially in a non-specific way, says nothing about the object of that comparison. It says everything about the person making the comparison. To call it politically incorrect is, frankly, weird.
My judgment that Jay and Mona are enjoying this stems not from their utter desolation at the nomination of Trump. Rather, it is from their focus, at the near exclusion of all else, on Trump’s shortcomings. My judgment is based on listening all of all of their podcasts (until the last month) since ~2011, and including since they became all Trump-is-a-disgrace all the time.
It’s great you don’t attack people (not sure that holds up having read your comments). But if in the main you don’t, great. Jay and Mona do.
I have plenty of respect for those who refuse to vote for Trump after serious consideration. Ben Shapiro is one example. He wrestles with it. Jay and Mona don’t. They wallow in their moral superiority without consideration. Jay’s perfunctory protestations of Hillary’s awfulness gives it away.
I don’t watch Fox News or read Breitbart.
Who gives me the right? Same as you, eh? That’s not so hard to understand, is it?
No, I agree that Hillary is corrupt. Just look at what the Clinton Foundation did in Haiti. I used the quotes because that’s Trump’s name for her – I’m quoting Trump.
That’s utter rot. As a current never trumper, all I can speak to is my own evolution. Before he announced (and became an immigration hard liner) I scoffed, because the very idea was comical. After the immigration comments, I thought perhaps highlighting the hunger for a tougher stance was a net positive. As his poll numbers grew, bolstered by millions in free media coverage for outrageous statements, I simply shook my head in disbelief. I knew I could never vote for such a mercurial, vicious, venal, unprincipled liberal, but I didn’t have a movement until I heard #nevertrump. I’m also #neverclinton fwiw. Your insinuation that this is somehow a class posture says more about what you think of the trump crowd than what the never trumpers think of them. Also fulldislosure: live in people’s republic of Illinois,can afford idealism.
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This is hardly in keeping with the concept of this site. It is quite possible to understand the concept of an analogy and be horrified by its use.
In my opinion you cannot compare the rise of Hitler to Trump without the baggage of what Hitler actually did. Intelligent civil conversation should avoid flip comparisons to one of histories worst human beings.
That you don’t understand that Hitler comparisons are not useful says more about you than about Ario.
To pretend that many Republicans are refusing to back Trump because he’s not “just right” is just wrong. This is the same “purity test” line we’ve heard dressed up as a fairy tale. And it is a fairy tale. Trump isn’t just a wee bit beyond the pale, he’s light years beyond it. McCain is a jerk, but he’s a jerk within tolerable limits.
Being against a statist who:
is hardly “moral preening.” You do yourself and your cause no favors by insulting people with whom you disagree and demanding that they fall in line.
Frankly, one of the most repellant things about Trump is his, and his supporters’, use of leftist, Alinskyite tactics. Consider the attempts to shout down dissent, the vile insults and labelling (e.g., “cuckservative”), the projecting (you’re calling us bad names and insulting us), the avoidance of issues, and the rejection of logic and reason.
There used to be a line of thought that said basically once you invoke Hitler you have lost the argument. That does not stop nevertrump people.
The rejection of your logic and reason is not the same as the rejection of any logic and reason. The pick of Pence for VP, going to conservative groups and putting out a list of good nominees for the Court and the economic team are all positives for Trump and on the issues. Hillary Clinton and how awful she will be is in and of itself and issue.
That said, I have never used the term “cuckservative” and agree that this is not helpful
I tend to agree with you on this. However, if I remember the podcast correctly (and it’s been awhile since I listened to it, so I may be wrong), Mona et al gave some reasons behind their invocation of Hitler. So far, no one in this trail has refuted those reasons, they’ve just announced that the invocation is proof that Mona et al are bad people.
Dear Jay and Mona, having just heard you podcast I wished to let you know that I love your show it is always a delight to listen to. Don’t ever change.