Elizabeth Warren is running. The Boston Globe’s Jeff Jacoby analyzes her “likeability” among other things with Mona. Jay joins later to talk about another Massachusettsite – or is it Utahite?

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There are 33 comments.

  1. 1
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  1. Member

    Mona, I usually enjoy your podcast, but I was very disappointed today with the way that you and your guest Jeff Jacoby discussed immigration. I think you both ignored and misrepresented factual statistics on legal and illegal immigration. You and he don’t seem to always make a clear differentiation between legal immigration and illegal immigration. When I was a child, California’s Central Valley in addition to feeding the world, was a virtual paradise. It had good paying jobs, good schools, citizens with respect for the law and was a delightful place to live. Drive through it today, and most of the time you would swear you are in a third world country. I invite you and Jeff to take such a drive and see firsthand the effects of the unlimited immigration you championed in the podcast. For some salient statistics, please read many of Victor Davis Hanson’s columns such as this one or his book Mexifornia.

     

    One of the reasons there has been a change in the way many conservatives view immigration is the fact that the Republican Party prior to Trump paid absolutely no attention to preventing or discouraging illegal immigration while the Democrats quietly legislated to support open borders. Until the problems with illegal immigration are addressed, it is futile to try and make a case for more immigration. During the presidency of George Bush when the Republicans controlled both branches of Congress was there any attempt to pass e-Verify, a guest worker program or implement a Visa tracking system at our ports and airports. No, there absolutely was not. There was a “comprehensive” solution proposed that was fatally flawed and was defeated. Whether it was because of lobbying by the Club for Growth or the cheerleading of the Wall Street Journal for cheap labor there was absolutely no enforcement of anti-illegal immigration measures. Was there any attempt to enact legislation to prevent the abuse of claiming “amnesty” from the thousands assailing our southern border from Latin America who don’t deserve amnesty but are released into the country never to answer their court date? No, there wasn’t.

     

    There is an entirely different environment in the country today than when Mr. Jacoby’s father immigrated in 1948. This was over 70 years ago. Your arguments need to reflect the current environment in the United States. I think we need to adopt an approach to immigration that is closer to the Canada model based on skill and education, and not on family association (chain migration). We are allowing too many illegal aliens into the country without high school degrees and who don’t speak English. They will never successfully assimilate. Today, America needs brain power more than it needs muscle power. Simply repeating Ronald Reagan’s view in the 80’s on immigration vis a vis the Mexico border doesn’t address the problems of today and won’t convert anyone to your views on immigration.

    • #1
    • January 5, 2019 at 2:29 pm
    • 4 likes
  2. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):
    There is an entirely different environment in the country today than when Mr. Jacoby’s father immigrated in 1948. This was over 70 years ago. Your arguments need to reflect the current environment in the United States. I think we need to adopt an approach to immigration that is closer to the Canada model based on skill and education, and not on family association (chain migration). We are allowing too many illegal aliens into the country without high school degrees and who don’t speak English. They will never successfully assimilate. Today, America needs brain power more than it needs muscle power. Simply repeating Ronald Reagan’s view in the 80’s on immigration vis a vis the Mexico border doesn’t address the problems of today and won’t convert anyone to your views on immigration.

    I think I agree with this paragraph. I am only slightly aware of the Canadian system but do agree that we need to focus more on skills than we presently do.

    I disagree with that part of the second paragraph that says The George Bush administration didn’t do much. And I think the “gang of eight” legislation, which some conservatives scorn, was probably the best approach. Sure, I am fully aware of all parts to it (I do not read practically unreadable legislation for a living; it is too lawyerly). But I have confidence in Marco Rubio. I think too many conservatives get so angry that the mention of the word amnesty that they refuse to be practical. Illegal immigration is wrong, no doubt, but something must be done with these people. Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life.

     

    • #2
    • January 5, 2019 at 3:02 pm
    • 1 like
  3. Member

    Mona, I enjoyed Jeff Jacoby. Please have him on again.

    I like what you both said about disagreements within the conservative movement. There are those, and they should be handled rationally, without rancor. I am just so tired of those today who proclaim that if you are not a Trumpite, you are not a conservative. Trump himself is not a conservative. Anybody who denies the fact of that is just not paying attention. All praise to him for being will to propose conservative things. But that is at the behest of his advisers; it doesn’t mean he thinks, or acts, like a conservative.

    • #3
    • January 5, 2019 at 3:08 pm
    • 1 like
  4. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life.

    I agree with this, but that doesn’t give them a right to enter the country and live here illegally.

    • #4
    • January 5, 2019 at 3:59 pm
    • 1 like
  5. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    And I think the “gang of eight” legislation, which some conservatives scorn, was probably the best approach.

    I don’t think the majority of the country would ever agree to this kind of an approach until they are convinced we have control of our borders. I also don’t think a majority will accept granting citizenship to those who have come here illegally. They will accept some form of punishment like a fine and and some form of legal residence, but not citizenship. That in my opinion is where Marco Rubio who I also admire made a major legislative mistake.

    • #5
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:04 pm
    • 1 like
  6. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life.

    I agree with this, but that doesn’t give them a right to enter the country and live here illegally.

    Fine, you are echoing what I said. By the way, other than e-verify, I think the best way to combat this scourge is to try and put together some public/private partnership (emphasis on the private) to get more capitalism into countries like Mexico, so people will want to say there – and thrive.

    • #6
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:25 pm
    • Like
  7. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    I think I agree with this paragraph. I am only slightly aware of the Canadian system but do agree that we need to focus more on skills than we presently do.

    @georgetownsend Here is a link where you can find out more about Canada’s immigration rules.

    • #7
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:26 pm
    • Like
  8. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    I think the best way to combat this scourge is to try and put together some public/private partnership (emphasis on the private) to get more capitalism into countries like Mexico, so people will want to say there – and thrive.

    I agree with this. I also think we need to offer to help Mexico reconstitute their police force. Today, it is completely corrupt and in many locations in control of the drug gangs. The drug gangs in Latin America are another major reason driving illegal immigration from there that must be addressed.

    • #8
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:31 pm
    • 2 likes
  9. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    And I think the “gang of eight” legislation, which some conservatives scorn, was probably the best approach.

    I don’t think the majority of the country would ever agree to this kind of an approach until they are convinced we have control of our borders. I also don’t think a majority will accept granting citizenship to those who have come here illegally. They will accept some form of punishment like a fine and and some form of legal residence, but not citizenship. That in my opinion is where Marco Rubio who I also admire made a major legislative mistake.

    One cannot put half-a-life on something. So – what the heck – I put a “like” on it. I don’t think they could forever be excluded from citizenship.

    I might as well go ahead and say what I believe: John Podheretz has called himself a “squish” on this. That’s kinda where I am. I don’t like illegal immigration, of course. It isn’t fair to people who came the right way. But I’ll be darned if I can see the great harm it’s done. Our economy is thriving; unemployment is at record lows. The greatest harm I see is from people like that scum who just killed a member of the police. I wanted to string the guy up. But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    • #9
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:36 pm
    • 1 like
  10. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    I think the best way to combat this scourge is to try and put together some public/private partnership (emphasis on the private) to get more capitalism into countries like Mexico, so people will want to say there – and thrive.

    I agree with this. I also think we need to offer to help Mexico reconstitute their police force. Today, it is completely corrupt and in many locations in control of the drug gangs. The drug gangs in Latin America are another major reason driving illegal immigration from there that must be addressed.

    good point!

    • #10
    • January 5, 2019 at 4:38 pm
    • Like
  11. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    It is in California. California is the classic case of what happens when illegal immigration is not controlled. Decades of encouraging illegal immigration has driven the middle class out of the state and resulted in two remaining classes–the very rich and the very poor with crime prevention at an all time low and crime at an all time high.

    • #11
    • January 5, 2019 at 5:13 pm
    • 1 like
  12. Member

    While the Immigration and Nationality Act prohibits people entering the United States if they are likely to become a “public charge,” that concept has been whittled into nothingness by the courts, who have defined a wide range of welfare benefits as not being applicable for the purposes of immigration law enforcement. About the only class of welfare that counts is general public assistance, which has almost disappeared in most places. Moreover, women come to the United States and give with (at public expence) and the U.S. citizen child is automatically eligible for AFDC or similar programs. In one country where I worked, when I asked visa applicants from that country how the recent immigrant from their home country they were going to visit supported herself, the answer would be “the child’s pension.” I wasn’t aware that working infants were so well-organized.

    Indeed I disagree that most immigrants come to exploit our welfare system. Most immigrants I’ve dealt with have been honest and hard-working. But they will also remain at the bottom rung of the economic latter for some time, and they will inevitably turn to public assistance at some point. The best research I’ve seen indicates that the transaction is barely a break-even for our country, and easily can turn into a net loss.

    Do we need the current levels of high immigration? I don’t think so. The influx of illegal labor directly impacts the lower 20% of our society, and their erstwhile protectors, the Democratic Party, look at fact in the eye and refuses to believe it. All they see are prospective political supports, who of course, would never, ever want to challenge their positions of power, just vote for them like lemmings.

    Neither side of the immigration debate is serious. They are playing around with their own stereotypes. Right now I’m ready for a policy, any policy that is enforced seriously, and the resources to do the job. We were promised this in 1986, and were betrayed, and illegal immigration continued unabated. The Democratic Party is clearly content with the status-quo of inaction, because seeing an unlimited increase of immigrants into this country simply just makes them feel virtuous, regardless of its future impacts.

    • #12
    • January 5, 2019 at 9:26 pm
    • 3 likes
  13. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    I think the best way to combat this scourge is to try and put together some public/private partnership (emphasis on the private) to get more capitalism into countries like Mexico, so people will want to say there – and thrive.

    I agree with this. I also think we need to offer to help Mexico reconstitute their police force. Today, it is completely corrupt and in many locations in control of the drug gangs. The drug gangs in Latin America are another major reason driving illegal immigration from there that must be addressed.

    good point!

    The absolute lack of attention paid to Latin America since the Clinton Administration has been absolutely shameful. Hey, Latinos here are going to vote for me anyway, why should I care what goes on south of the border, except for narcotics? Our Anti-Imperialist President Obama was even more neglectful.

    The entire Hemisphere, including us, should be ashamed by our collective inaction in Venezuela. That once-rich and prosperous country has been completely destroyed by an ideology and the petty, selfish people pushing it. I’m disgusted that we sit back silent. People, our neighbors, are starving and dying. I’m frustrated that neighboring OAS countries refuse to act, hiding behind an ancient history where intervention meant something else. And I hope Sean Penn and the rest of his Chavista friends wake up in a cold sweat after being visited by the spirit of a starved Venezuelan child who is no longer with us.

    • #13
    • January 5, 2019 at 9:33 pm
    • 3 likes
  14. Member

    big spaniel (View Comment):
    The absolute lack of attention paid to Latin America since the Clinton Administration has been absolutely shameful.

    And China is currently trying to develop influence in Latin America with low cost loans and a refusal to criticize the governing regime. They have already established a foothold in Panama.

    • #14
    • January 5, 2019 at 9:44 pm
    • 1 like
  15. Listener

    I agree with @alkennedy about the lack of distinction in the podcast between legal and illegal immigration. I personally don’t know anyone opposed to legal immigration. 

    @bigspaniel is right about the cost of welfare for children of illegal immigrants. 

    My own experience with illegal immigrants in my city in the southeast left me conflicted, but against open borders. For several years, I tutored an elementary school student born here to illegal immigrants. She was a bright, lovely child who received citizenship, but her father murdered a police officer who was checking on a domestic violence call phoned in by her mother. I was thankful that the child had opportunities here that she wouldn’t have had in Mexico, but it was at such a high cost. Her father should never have been free to live here. 

    Illegal immigration can also change communities as ghettos form and crime rates go up. In my fairly safe, medium sized city, immigrant gang members recently murdered (gruesomely) a woman and a child – in a safe part of town. It was shocking. I had no idea those gangs had come here. 

    I’m no Trump fan. He doesn’t always express himself well or nobly in discussing immigration, but there is truth to some of what he says. Twenty years ago, I didn’t see any of these problems in the southeast, but today, I don’t think the anger at open borders/illegal immigration is unfounded. 

    • #15
    • January 6, 2019 at 12:26 am
    • 2 likes
  16. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    It is in California. California is the classic case of what happens when illegal immigration is not controlled. Decades of encouraging illegal immigration has driven the middle class out of the state and resulted in two remaining classes–the very rich and the very poor with crime prevention at an all time low and crime at an all time high.

    I am not sure. Was it Barry Goldwater who said we ought to cut California from the nation, and set it adrift? LOL :-;

    • #16
    • January 6, 2019 at 12:35 am
    • Like
  17. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    It is in California. California is the classic case of what happens when illegal immigration is not controlled. Decades of encouraging illegal immigration has driven the middle class out of the state and resulted in two remaining classes–the very rich and the very poor with crime prevention at an all time low and crime at an all time high.

    I am not sure. Was it Barry Goldwater who said we ought to cut California from the nation, and set it adrift? LOL :-;

    Another problem is that the middle class moving out is taking their left wing politics with them. Witness what’s happening electorally in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

    • #17
    • January 6, 2019 at 2:03 am
    • 1 like
  18. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    It is in California. California is the classic case of what happens when illegal immigration is not controlled. Decades of encouraging illegal immigration has driven the middle class out of the state and resulted in two remaining classes–the very rich and the very poor with crime prevention at an all time low and crime at an all time high.

    I am not sure. Was it Barry Goldwater who said we ought to cut California from the nation, and set it adrift? LOL :-;

    Another problem is that the middle class moving out is taking their left wing politics with them. Witness what’s happening electorally in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

    You know, this bothers me. I simply do not understand. Maybe I do. But I just can’t accept it, intellectually: Doesn’t the reason people are moving out have to go with quality of life? E.G. their taxes are too high? The policies of the state have deteriorated? Doesn’t it occur to these people that voting for these same policies are going to make their newly adopted states just as bad? I know, I know, it is ideology. But at what point do these people decide to grow up? Many of us who are conservative did not start out that way. We saw that we had been wrong, and were willing to change. It just takes some humility, and willingness to look facts squarely in the eye.

    • #18
    • January 6, 2019 at 2:23 am
    • 2 likes
  19. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    It is in California. California is the classic case of what happens when illegal immigration is not controlled. Decades of encouraging illegal immigration has driven the middle class out of the state and resulted in two remaining classes–the very rich and the very poor with crime prevention at an all time low and crime at an all time high.

    I am not sure. Was it Barry Goldwater who said we ought to cut California from the nation, and set it adrift? LOL :-;

    Another problem is that the middle class moving out is taking their left wing politics with them. Witness what’s happening electorally in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

    You know, this bothers me. I simply do not understand. Maybe I do. But I just can’t accept it, intellectually: Doesn’t the reason people are moving out have to go with quality of life? E.G. their taxes are too high? The policies of the state have deteriorated? Doesn’t it occur to these people that voting for these same policies are going to make their newly adopted states just as bad? I know, I know, it is ideology. But at what point do these people decide to grow up? Many of us who are conservative did not start out that way. We saw that we had been wrong, and were willing to change. It just takes some humility, and willingness to look facts squarely in the eye.

    I couldn’t agree more. I also cannot get my head around their reasoning. As Yul Brynner said in “The King and I”: “It’s a puzzlement!” Arizona, Nevada, and Texas don’t tax income. If taxes are lower, you have more personal income to spend rather than the government. The implication is that the government therefore has less to spend. To me, that’s goodness! The cost of living is lower in these states. California has the highest gasoline tax in the nation and the most expensive electricity. Housing is not affordable. However these California emigrants don’t seem to buy that argument or think that these benefits require them to be more self-sufficient. I just don’t know the reason.

    • #19
    • January 6, 2019 at 2:42 am
    • 1 like
  20. Coolidge

    Put the podcast aside, the comments here are more striking. They are reasonable and civil and engaging. Who can ever say that about a comments section?

    I can’t imagine anyone treated Mona poorly on that National Review cruise several years ago where she said her minority opinion was encouraged. I love that you can still find that same spirit here on Ricochet… 

    Even the initial objection to the podcast is polite and based on substance.

    It is very nice to see.

     

    • #20
    • January 6, 2019 at 6:08 am
    • 4 likes
  21. Member

    I totally agree, Lois. But you should see some other threads. Sigh!

    • #21
    • January 6, 2019 at 6:27 am
    • 1 like
  22. Member

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Put the podcast aside, the comments here are more striking. They are reasonable and civil and engaging. Who can ever say that about a comments section?

    I can’t imagine anyone treated Mona poorly on that National Review cruise several years ago where she said her minority opinion was encouraged. I love that you can still find that same spirit here on Ricochet…

    Even the initial objection to the podcast is polite and based on substance.

    It is very nice to see.

    Thank you @LoisLane, but I thought this was the point of Ricochet. I was fortunate to have a principal partner in the conversation who was as thoughtful, intelligent and polite as @georgetownsend. I think the world of Mona Charen. I have been reading her for over thirty years and think her arguments are well researched , thoughtful, and insightful. She has been a champion of conservative values for women without descending to the condensation of the Democrat belief in identity politics since her participation in the Reagan Administration. I have cringed at the comments of the President Trump fan club on Ricochet who disparage the fact that she is just not an “always Trump”. Their comments say more about them then they do about Mona. Mona and I just disagree on illegal immigration.. Thanks again for reading the thread.

    • #22
    • January 6, 2019 at 7:58 am
    • 3 likes
  23. Member

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):
    I was fortunate to have a principal partner in the conversation who was as thoughtful, intelligent and polite as @georgetownsend.

    Why, thank you, Al. Back at ya!

    • #23
    • January 6, 2019 at 9:06 am
    • Like
  24. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):
    I was fortunate to have a principal partner in the conversation who was as thoughtful, intelligent and polite as @georgetownsend.

    Why, thank you, Al. Back at ya!

    Thank you George. I enjoyed it.

    • #24
    • January 6, 2019 at 9:20 am
    • 1 like
  25. Listener

    Mona helped me stay sane through the 2016 election, when my very conservative and religious parents and in-laws grew defensive of any criticism of Trump, and he was even their last choice. Conversation about politics became almost impossible with them, and I found myself agreeing aloud with Mona as she brilliantly articulated many of the things I thought my own parents should be saying but wouldn’t. About the only time my mom and I have agreed on Trump and been able to speak cordially on the subject was when she admitted that Trumpy Bear was ridiculous.

    • #25
    • January 6, 2019 at 11:46 am
    • 3 likes
  26. Coolidge

    I like everyone’s comments on this thread really, but I “liked” @katy ‘s comment because I got the pleasure of figuring out what the heck a “Trumpy Bear” is. Oi!

     

    • #26
    • January 6, 2019 at 12:09 pm
    • 2 likes
  27. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life.

    I agree with this, but that doesn’t give them a right to enter the country and live here illegally.

    Fine, you are echoing what I said. 

    No, he’s not echoing what you said. He’s pointing out that what you said (“Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life”) is irrelevant. They’re lawbreakers. They’re trespassers.

    The zombie-like quality of this “they just want a better life” trope astonishes me. It won’t die, and it is contagious.

    • #27
    • January 6, 2019 at 6:24 pm
    • 1 like
  28. Member

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    I think in a country this big, that kind of brutality from an illegal is not as widespread as Trump tries to make us believe.

    George, as Al suggested in the very first comment, read Victor Davis Hanson: 

    Three houses within a half-mile of my own [California] home have been the scene of gang shoot-outs, illegal trash dumping, and illicit commerce. This week there was one mass robbery attempt (of farm workers) and a shoot-out on the freeway within a two-mile radius of where I write. I found a stolen and stripped spray rig last night in the orchard.

    • #28
    • January 6, 2019 at 6:34 pm
    • Like
  29. Listener

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    I think the best way to combat this scourge is to try and put together some public/private partnership (emphasis on the private) to get more capitalism into countries like Mexico, so people will want to say there – and thrive.

    I agree with this. I also think we need to offer to help Mexico reconstitute their police force. Today, it is completely corrupt and in many locations in control of the drug gangs. The drug gangs in Latin America are another major reason driving illegal immigration from there that must be addressed.

    You nation-building neo-con ;)

    • #29
    • January 6, 2019 at 10:38 pm
    • 1 like
  30. Member

    LibertyDefender (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Al Kennedy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life.

    I agree with this, but that doesn’t give them a right to enter the country and live here illegally.

    Fine, you are echoing what I said.

    No, he’s not echoing what you said. He’s pointing out that what you said (“Most, I think, are fine people, just seeking a better life”) is irrelevant. They’re lawbreakers. They’re trespassers.

    The zombie-like quality of this “they just want a better life” trope astonishes me. It won’t die, and it is contagious.

    This is uncalled for. Al said he agrees with me. I never disagreed with him about the illegality. You are just being nasty.

    • #30
    • January 7, 2019 at 3:07 am
    • Like
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