After we recorded and posted part 1 of this conversation last week, the news came out that the Supreme Court will hear the Harvard/University of North Carolina affirmative action admissions cases. It has been solidly demonstrated that the universities don’t just use race as a minor, tie-breaking “plus” factor, but indeed put both feet on the scale in favor of blacks and to a lesser degree Hispanics, and heavily against Asian applicants.

This makes for a perfect launching point for the second half the conversation, where we jump in exactly where we left off in part 1. Charles and Steve Sailer had just reviewed the falling crime rates in Hispanic communities, and we resume here with Charles bluntly and directly arguing that affirmative action is the 50-ton elephant in the room, and not just in college admissions. From there we turn to the subject of education, and take up the changing views of meritocracy, and suggest alternatives for preserving excellence in education in a new era where the familiar screens of the SAT and other achievement tests are being quickly abandoned. Charles and Steve have perspectives on these subjects that may surprise listeners.

The idea for this episode was born on Twitter. Someone wondered if Charles Murray would be willing to do a podcast with journalist Steve Sailer, who, like Charles, is willing to confront openly the most delicate aspects of race and class in America—and gets the same treatment from liberals everywhere: complete demonization.

I offered to host, and Charles and Steve, who have never met, agreed.