Discrimination against Asians at Ivy League Schools

 

There is another article on the issue of racial discrimination in today’s Wall Street Journal, titled “The New Jews of Harvard Admissions.

The problem has been ongoing. Visit any Asian (well, Indian, at least) party and attendees will tell you how to beat the SAT score bias and what exactly is needed on an application to be selected by an Ivy League school.

Asians have to achieve the following scores:

[O]n average approximately 140 points higher than a white student, 270 points higher than a Hispanic student and 450 points higher than a black student on the SAT to be on equal footing.

According to the Journal article, Asians are not having this anymore. A group of 60 Asian student groups are asking the Justice Department to investigate.

Good.

It’s about time we put an end to preferential treatment, or as I see it, the tyranny of lowered expectations.

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  1. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Agreed!

    • #1
  2. 10 cents Member
    10 cents
    @

    This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    • #2
  3. Asquared Inactive
    Asquared
    @ASquared

    10 cents:This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    They already have the answer pre-cooked.  It’s called diversity.  If they just accepted people based on merit, the Ivy League would be predominantly Asian and those poor African-Americans would be denied a chance to enter a university they are not prepared for academically (given the disparity in average test scores).

    • #3
  4. 10 cents Member
    10 cents
    @

    Asquared:

    10 cents:This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    They already have the answer pre-cooked. It’s called diversity. If they just accepted people based on merit, the Ivy League would be predominantly Asian and those poor African-Americans would be denied a chance to enter a university they are not prepared for academically (given the disparity in average test scores).

    Maybe the NFL and NBA could get some of that too.

    • #4
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Barkha Herman:Asians have to [score?]:

    on average approximately 140 points higher than a white student, 270 points higher than a Hispanic student and 450 points higher than a black student on the SAT to be on equal footing.

    Done:

    • #5
  6. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Asquared:

    10 cents:This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    They already have the answer pre-cooked. It’s called diversity. If they just accepted people based on merit, the Ivy League would be predominantly Asian and those poor African-Americans would be denied a chance to enter a university they are not prepared for academically (given the disparity in average test scores).

    There’s a slightly better answer in that there is merit in different types of thinking. If all the ivy league schools were filled with clones of the most meritorious test taker, you’re probably missing out on a diversity of thought.

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    • #6
  7. user_189393 Inactive
    user_189393
    @BarkhaHerman

    @Zafar

    Hey…..

    When did you install cameras in my house?

    • #7
  8. user_189393 Inactive
    user_189393
    @BarkhaHerman

    Mike H:

    Asquared:

    10 cents:This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    They already have the answer pre-cooked. It’s called diversity. If they just accepted people based on merit, the Ivy League would be predominantly Asian and those poor African-Americans would be denied a chance to enter a university they are not prepared for academically (given the disparity in average test scores).

    There’s a slightly better answer in that there is merit in different types of thinking. If all the ivy league schools were filled with clones of the most meritorious test taker, you’re probably missing out on a diversity of thought.

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    The admissions already look at other factors over and beyond the SAT scores.

    I know you have a Ph.D in Physics, but so you really want to get into a “my credentials are better than your” discussion with me  (And the young overachieving Asians I know)?

    • #8
  9. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Barkha Herman:

    Mike H:

    Asquared:

    10 cents:This should be fun to watch the pretzel being made in how they explain this away.

    They already have the answer pre-cooked. It’s called diversity. If they just accepted people based on merit, the Ivy League would be predominantly Asian and those poor African-Americans would be denied a chance to enter a university they are not prepared for academically (given the disparity in average test scores).

    There’s a slightly better answer in that there is merit in different types of thinking. If all the ivy league schools were filled with clones of the most meritorious test taker, you’re probably missing out on a diversity of thought.

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    The admissions already look at other factors over and beyond the SAT scores.

    I know you have a Ph.D in Physics, but so you really want to get into a “my credentials are better than your” discussion with me (And the young overachieving Asians I know)?

    Huh? I think you may have misunderstood my comment because I don’t follow yours.

    Admissions do look at other factors other than SAT, that’s my whole point. If those factors, when considered, offset the higher SAT scores among Asians, it is plausible that could explain at least some of the discrepancy.

    I think credentials are overrated in general.

    • #9
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Mike H:

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    Going by the figures that implies that Blacks have more personality than other groups, Hispanics have quite a lot, Whites have an average amount and Asians are dull and lifeless.  Hmmm.  I guess that’s possible.

    • #10
  11. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Barkha Herman:@Zafar

    Hey…..

    When did you install cameras in my house?

    No need.  Send in (Stereo)Typical Indian Mother from Central Casting…

    • #11
  12. user_189393 Inactive
    user_189393
    @BarkhaHerman

    Zafar:

    Mike H:

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    Going by the figures that implies that Blacks have more personality than other groups, Hispanics have quite a lot, Whites have an average amount and Asians are dull and lifeless. Hmmm. I guess that’s possible.

    OK.  I’ll pit my personality against all Ricochetti :-D.  Any day, any time.

    • #12
  13. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Zafar:

    Mike H:

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    Going by the figures that implies that Blacks have more personality than other groups, Hispanics have quite a lot, Whites have an average amount and Asians are dull and lifeless. Hmmm. I guess that’s possible.

    Test scores are a zero sum game. When you do better you make others look worse. Asian culture, as is implied in the video you posted, highly values test scores. This overemphasis on test scores will make them look better on paper.

    Of course there is some racial discrimination going on, that’s obvious. But asians are still overrepresented and blacks underrepresented. I’m just saying that if you could adjust for racial discrimination I wouldn’t be surprised to see Asians still have much higher average SAT scores, and still be overrepresented thanks to their higher average intelligence.

    • #13
  14. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    There are several problems reading such an article.

    First, usually the writers are utterly innumerate. The term “on average” is troubling. Discrimination is measured at the margin, not on average. If two groups have different distributions of SAT score and/or are of different size, they can have different averages at a given institution without there being discrimination.

    Imagine every applicant with at least a 99.5th percentile score was admitted to a top school (and none with a lower score). There is no discrimination. However, Group A could have a greater representation in the 99.8+ range while Group B has a greater representation in the 99.5-99.7 range. Group A, on average has a higher score than Group B.

    Second, the aggregation of groups is a big issue. Based on my knowledge of admissions from about 25 years ago, under the “diversity” guise most schools broke up whites into many groups (I’ll get to sex and citizenship later). It may break down as: New York Jew needs to be 99.7th percentile to get admitted to a top school; New York WASP needs to be 98th percentile, New York Irish Catholic needs to be 97th percentile… down to Bayou Cajun needing 90th percentile. Many of the Asian comparisons are comparing the marginal Asian to the marginal white token and not to the marginal New Yorkers.

    There are also issues involving the aggregation of groups within “Asian”.

    Sex preferences may bring some lower scoring white females into a place like MIT, thus lowering white averages and margins. OTOH, this could work in the opposite direction if relatively more Asian women chose to take advantage of the preferences than white women.

    Conversely, there are over 4 billion Asians in Asia and a lot of them are really smart. If American schools limit the number of foreign admittees to only the best, that will tend to pad the average scores of Asians (see my first point about averages).

    Finally, whites are gutless. For years whites have talked about discrimination against Asians (often when none was present) because they were scared about discussing discrimination against whites. It was easy for whites to mislead when a marginal Asian had a 95th percentile score and a marginal black had an 80th. The problem back then was that in some situations (like law and business schools) the marginal white would have had a 98th percentile score. The numbers I had seen from 25 odd years ago suggested that black and latino affirmative action at the undergrad level came essentially entirely at the expense of whites. In law  and business schools, Asians massively benefitted from preferences. The gray area was graduate science and engineering. However the big issue there was limits on foreigners.

    • #14
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Barkha Herman:

    Zafar:

    Mike H:

    So, the discrepancy may be due to some Asians missing in the personality department rather than being actively discriminated against for being Asian.

    Going by the figures that implies that Blacks have more personality than other groups, Hispanics have quite a lot, Whites have an average amount and Asians are dull and lifeless. Hmmm. I guess that’s possible.

    OK. I’ll pit my personality against all Ricochetti :-D. Any day, any time.

    I suspect that you are Punjabi By Nature, so my money is on you.

    • #15
  16. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Mike H:

    Test scores are a zero sum game. When you do better you make others look worse. Asian culture, as is implied in the video you posted, highly values test scores. This overemphasis on test scores will make them look better on paper.

    Of course there is some racial discrimination going on, that’s obvious. But asians are still overrepresented and blacks underrepresented. I’m just saying that if you could adjust for racial discrimination I wouldn’t be surprised to see Asians still have much higher average SAT scores, and still be overrepresented thanks to their higher average intelligence.

    I don’t think Asians have a higher average intelligence, I think it’s a combination of a very competitive culture and a standard immigrant neurosis about achieving achieving achieving and making good.  Plus a certain (often) unease with how their children adapt to the receiving culture, so fallback default plan (before you get them married) is make them study study study because that will keep them out of mischief.

    • #16
  17. user_189393 Inactive
    user_189393
    @BarkhaHerman

    @Zafar:

    Hans Herman Hoppe would disagree with you; as will Richard Lynn.  Intelligence does vary by race / ethnic group.  Reasons may not be as obvious.

    What I do no like about the admissions though is the fact that there is an inherent “lowered expectations” based on race.

    If admissions were to be truly fair, remove race and gender disclosures from all admissions for the initial screenings.  Select based on applications alone, then go to the interview phase to determine, say the personality so valued as suggested; which is again silly  – since some of the most successful, hardworking and high achieving  people I know are introverts and may have a not so brilliant personality.

    • #17
  18. Vance Richards Inactive
    Vance Richards
    @VanceRichards

    Colleges want more minorities, but you have to be the right kind of minority. If Asian kids are having issues getting into college, maybe they should try checking off the transgender box on the application.

    • #18
  19. user_189393 Inactive
    user_189393
    @BarkhaHerman

    Vance Richards:Colleges want more minorities, but you have to be the right kind of minority. If Asian kids are having issues getting into college, maybe they should try checking off the transgender box on the application.

    Or pretend to be black, like Mindy Kaling’s brother did.

    I guess he gained personality by checking the box.

    • #19
  20. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Barkha Herman:

    Vance Richards:Colleges want more minorities, but you have to be the right kind of minority. If Asian kids are having issues getting into college, maybe they should try checking off the transgender box on the application.

    Or pretend to be black, like Mindy Kaling’s brother did.

    I guess he gained personality by checking the box.

    Or “leadership” or whatever other fudging buzzword the left chooses.

    • #20
  21. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Welcome to the club, Asians!  We white males have been facing explicit, legally-sanctioned discrimination against us for my entire life.  (FYI, I’m 47.)

    Should we have a secret handshake?

    Though this report isn’t new news.  I think that we’ve known for about 25 years that Asians faced heavy discrimination in college admissions.

    • #21
  22. Vance Richards Inactive
    Vance Richards
    @VanceRichards

    Barkha Herman:

    Vance Richards:Colleges want more minorities, but you have to be the right kind of minority. If Asian kids are having issues getting into college, maybe they should try checking off the transgender box on the application.

    Or pretend to be black, like Mindy Kaling’s brother did.

    I guess he gained personality by checking the box.

    And that got him accepted into medical school. That kind of story can make people think twice about going to a black doctor, which is shame for the doctors who got into school because they were actually qualified.

    • #22
  23. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Zafar:

    Mike H:

    Test scores are a zero sum game. When you do better you make others look worse. Asian culture, as is implied in the video you posted, highly values test scores. This overemphasis on test scores will make them look better on paper.

    Of course there is some racial discrimination going on, that’s obvious. But asians are still overrepresented and blacks underrepresented. I’m just saying that if you could adjust for racial discrimination I wouldn’t be surprised to see Asians still have much higher average SAT scores, and still be overrepresented thanks to their higher average intelligence.

    I don’t think Asians have a higher average intelligence, I think it’s a combination of a very competitive culture and a standard immigrant neurosis about achieving achieving achieving and making good. Plus a certain (often) unease with how their children adapt to the receiving culture, so fallback default plan (before you get them married) is make them study study study because that will keep them out of mischief.

    The culture and selection bias definitely exacerbates the effect, but I thought there was a slight (3 points or so) average IQ difference due to slightly larger brains and (maybe?) slightly longer gestation.

    • #23
  24. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Barkha Herman:

    I guess he gained personality by checking the box.

    You completely misunderstand what I was saying.

    • #24
  25. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    In addition to ctlaw’s excellent breakdown, there may be other factors at work.

    For instance, the Asian Asian kids I went to school with were frequently beneficiaries of subsidies from their governments. Failure for them probably meant a plane ride back home. Failure for others – including the Asian Americans – meant a stint at the community college. Nothing wrong with community colleges, but the foreign students maintained focus.

    • #25
  26. iWc Coolidge
    iWc
    @iWe

    I know much more about this than I can say in an open comment.

    This quest for diversity based solely on skin color/name is indeed pure racism. Admissions offices spend an awful lot of time lying to themselves about what they do and why. Only academics can consistently convince themselves that all empirical data is wrong.

    It is morally indefensible on every front.

    • #26
  27. 10 cents Member
    10 cents
    @

    iWe:I know much more about this than I can say in an open comment.

    This quest for diversity based solely on skin color/name is indeed pure racism. Admissions offices spend an awful lot of time lying to themselves about what they do and why. Only academics can consistently convince themselves that all empirical data is wrong.

    It is morally indefensible on every front.

    But that still does not stop them.

    The saddest part is that they hurt those who they are trying to help.

    • #27
  28. Asquared Inactive
    Asquared
    @ASquared

    10 cents:

    iWe:…

    It is morally indefensible on every front.

    But that still does not stop them.

    The saddest part is that they hurt those who they are trying to help.

    I’m admittedly cynical, but I’ve become convinced that the left knows exactly what it is doing and has absolutely no interest in helping minorities.

    By seeming to help them while actually harming them, they stay poor and reliable votes for the Democratic party.

    • #28
  29. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @

    It actually gets more pathetic. If you are diagnosed with ADD ADHD or other learning disabilities, you get extra time – a fair amount – to complete the test. One of the most difficult aspects of these tests is the time pressure. So what are parents doing? You got it, having their sons and daughters diagnosed with ADD (easy to do) so they can get better scores, and this way they also get the performance-enhancing drugs like adderal for test day. My daughter tells me everyone she knows takes those drugs for their SATs anyway.

    There are teachers and tutors who have basically ‘hacked’ the SAT tests and if you take their courses you are bound to get a better score. My daughters freind reported that she took a course and the exact same essay question was assigned to her in the course that was on her exam. She had already written an essay in class, which of course helped her tremendously.

    • #29
  30. EThompson Member
    EThompson
    @

    The disregard for meritocracy in universities is a disgrace.

    A longtime friend married a man of Hispanic ancestry but for professional reasons, maintained her WASPy last name. Their kids used their father’s last name but when applying to colleges were advised to ignore the multi-ethnic box and check Hispanic just as Obama insists upon referring to himself solely as black.

    Another friend (African-American) got into Harvard with far lower SAT scores than I had. Admittedly, it had an adverse effect upon our relationship and this is the ultimate irony of liberal obsession with “diversity.” If you manipulate standards and requirements, it only aggravates and alienates relationships between ethnic groups.

    Thomas Sowell once wrote quite poignantly that he thought affirmative action had had a devastating effect upon his own kids who did well scholastically (surprise!) but were ashamed that their imminent success was credited to racially skewed admission policies.

    • #30
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