Caution: Using This Product Against Armed Citizens Might Result in Injury or Death

 

A video showing an armed plainclothes Brazilian police woman fighting back against an armed attacked has gone viral and is popping up all over my social media feed. My friend John Corriea breaks down the video from a tactical perspective on his YouTube channel, but caution: There is no blood shown, however, someone does wind up assuming room temperature. The video itself and how’s it’s gone viral, though, have some interesting implications for the larger efforts to fight back against gun control and keep and expand our right to self-defense.

One of the methods currently used by those opposed to the right of self defense is the proven strategy of making guns “uncool,” and holding gun manufacturers liable for their misuse, which is essentially the same methods used against the tobacco companies to limit the use of their products.

One of the examples of this strategy in the fight against private ownership of guns is the efforts to repeal the Protection in Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, (PLCAA) which shields firearms manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits designed to drive them out of business, such as the lawsuit brought against online ammo seller Lucky Gunner by the parents of a victim of the Aurora theater shooter, implying somehow that Lucky Gunner was liable because they somehow knew beforehand that their ammo was going to used in such a horrific manner. Due in part to the PLCAA, the suit was dismissed by Judge Richard P. Matsch, who also order the plaintiffs to pay a healthy chunk of Lucky Gunner’s legal fees (which Lucky Gunner later earmarked for use by gun rights organizations (*sniff*… I love a happy ending…).*

The strategy of “guns = tobacco” has a fatal flaw. The positive societal benefits of smoking are pretty much non-existant but the positive societal benefits of a responsible armed citizenry are out there for all to see. They’re exemplified in that viral video of a mother defending her family with a concealed firearm, and they continue on with skills acquired by competing in the shooting sport and the conservation programs funded by the Pittman Robertson Act. Yes, there are negative effects of civilian gun ownership (nothing in life is free), and the campaigns to limit those negative effects are being championed by the gun industry itself. Just as the biggest advocates of pool safety is the pool building industry, gun trade groups understand the need for safety and promote efforts to increase firearms education, enforce existing gun laws and expand the safe storage of guns.

Guns are not tobacco, and effort to label them as a menace to society as tobacco was so labeled is doomed to fail, because if guns themselves were the problem confronting society, why do the police carry them to protect society from itself?

That’s a question the anti-gun crowd has no answer for.

* Full Disclosure: Lucky Gunner provides me with ammo for some gun tests, and they’re good friends of mine because, well, they’re friendly people.

There are 26 comments.

  1. Member

    Just today, an octogenarian neighbor told me three hooligans recently stopped him on a walking trail — directly beside a busy road — to demand his money. He said he had no money (as a retired police officer, he presumably hoped to defuse the situation without escalating tension). “There’s three of us and one of you” they said. My neighbor revealed his handgun. The end. 

    Weeks later, he saw a guy beating on a woman. He approached and spoke up. The lowlife told him to leave and tried to intimidate him. My neighbor pulled out… his phone and threatened to call 911. The end. 

    Lowlife’s brother happened by days later and threatened. But again my neighbor was secure. Why was this elderly gentelman confident enough to stand up to thugs even while he needs a cane to walk? Because he carries a gun. 

    That is three encounters defused without violence because of responsible gun ownership.

    • #1
    • May 13, 2018 at 4:34 pm
    • 9 likes
  2. Member

    Kevin Creighton: * Full Disclosure: Lucky Gunner provides me with ammo for some gun tests, and they’re good friends of mine because, well, they’re friendly people.

    And they provide you with ammo…

    • #2
    • May 13, 2018 at 8:06 pm
    • 1 like
  3. Member

    Great video and great breakdown.

    Man, if I wasn’t married (totally, desperately, til-death-do-us-part married), I might have to pony up all my miles and fly down to meet the next ex-Mrs. Mongo. I think I’ve got a bit of a crush.

    • #3
    • May 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm
    • 2 likes
  4. Thatcher

    I am also a happy customer of Lucky Gunner.

    • #4
    • May 14, 2018 at 4:59 am
    • 2 likes
  5. Member

    Sometimes good things happen to bad people.

    • #5
    • May 14, 2018 at 7:07 am
    • 2 likes
  6. Thatcher

    I doubt this video (and others like it) will ever be shown in the MSM because it goes against their narrative that guns in the hands of average citizens are seldom used for self protection.

    • #6
    • May 14, 2018 at 7:12 am
    • 2 likes
  7. Member

    She got three shots into the bad guy within 6 seconds of the event commencing. That is one prepared lady. I tip my hat to her.

    • #7
    • May 14, 2018 at 8:19 am
    • 1 like
  8. Member

    Some questions about that particular incident, after watching the video: 

    What are the odds that, had her first shot passed through the robber, it could have done serious damage to the mother or child directly behind him? 

    Do you recommend shallow-penetrating bullets for urban defenders? Does it affect your gun selection?

    • #8
    • May 14, 2018 at 9:15 am
    • Like
  9. Member

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Some questions about that particular incident, after watching the video:

    What are the odds that, had her first shot passed through the robber, it could have done serious damage to the mother or child directly behind him?

    Do you recommend shallow-penetrating bullets for urban defenders? Does it affect your gun selection?

    Hollow points are best. Military ball ammunition may be less expensive, but it’s designed to penetrate more than one person.

     

    • #9
    • May 14, 2018 at 9:58 am
    • 2 likes
  10. Member

    It’s not clear that she should have started shooting. That should only be done if it reduces the likelihood that someone is going to get hurt. Not merely to stop a robbery. It’s case by case and a subjective call. She should only have done that if she thought the perp was about to shoot someone. Look how close she came to getting shot herself or someone else getting hit when he returned fire.

    • #10
    • May 14, 2018 at 12:15 pm
    • 1 like
  11. Member

    Here is a brief overview of Oregon Law:

    Definitions:

    “Deadly weapon” means any instrument, article or substance specifically designed for and presently capable of causing death or serious physical injury.

    “Serious physical injury” means physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.

    Persons lawfully defending life or property as provided in ORS 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person);

    Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

    (1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

    (2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

    (3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person.

    I don’t know what Brazilian law states, but looking at the video her actions meet the criteria for a justified shooting in Oregon.

    Reasonably believed is how the victim perceives the situation, not the intent of the criminal.

    • #11
    • May 14, 2018 at 3:12 pm
    • 3 likes
  12. Member

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Some questions about that particular incident, after watching the video:

    What are the odds that, had her first shot passed through the robber, it could have done serious damage to the mother or child directly behind him?

    Do you recommend shallow-penetrating bullets for urban defenders? Does it affect your gun selection?

    Hollow points are best. Military ball ammunition may be less expensive, but it’s designed to penetrate more than one person.

     

    You can also get frangible. More wound effects (@dougwatt, yeah?) even less over-penetration concern. Usually, long gun in an urban environment is the sweet spot for frangible, but given what I saw on the video, she may have pre-made that decision.

    • #12
    • May 14, 2018 at 4:05 pm
    • 2 likes
  13. Member

    Bob Wainwright (View Comment):

    It’s not clear that she should have started shooting. That should only be done if it reduces the likelihood that someone is going to get hurt. Not merely to stop a robbery. It’s case by case and a subjective call. She should only have done that if she thought the perp was about to shoot someone. Look how close she came to getting shot herself or someone else getting hit when he returned fire.

    Wholly disagree, brother. If a criminal miscreant is willing to pull a gun for the purposes of taking your resources (when kids are present!), then that criminal has lost all benefit of the doubt. If he violates the norms of a civil society to that extent, in the moment, then a sane, civil person cannot ponder “why?” and “what if?”

    What if his purpose was to get some cash/credit cards (not a bad site selection for him, then. Most of the moms would probably hand over their purposes willingly to keep shots from being fired near their children). What if after that he wanted to grab some pediatric strange to enjoy whilst he intoxicated himself, enabled by the fruits of his ill-gotten gains?

    He determined he’d bring a gun to the table. The law abiding citizen should not be saddled with determining whether it’s just a motivational prop, whether it’s there for personal protection during the crime, or whether it’s present so that once he gets some frogskins, he can get his mass-shooter-in-front-of-a-school mojo on. 

    Once the criminal’s gun comes out, do what’s safest for the mostest fastest. His intentions count for naught.

    Nope. Once someone presents lethal capability in pursuit of an illicit objective, he’s done. No benefit of the doubt.

    • #13
    • May 14, 2018 at 4:19 pm
    • 3 likes
  14. Member

    Bob Wainwright (View Comment):

    It’s not clear that she should have started shooting. That should only be done if it reduces the likelihood that someone is going to get hurt. Not merely to stop a robbery. It’s case by case and a subjective call. She should only have done that if she thought the perp was about to shoot someone. Look how close she came to getting shot herself or someone else getting hit when he returned fire.

    I thought that too.

    Then I looked again.

    He’s pointing his revolver right at one of the other Moms. Deadly force was indeed justified.

    All of this was over in 6 seconds. Not a lot of time to analyse.

    • #14
    • May 14, 2018 at 5:52 pm
    • 2 likes
  15. Member

    I was wincing all the way through the part where the woman and child were the backstop for the first shot. I’d have nightmares about the little girl in pink if the same thing happened to me, no matter the outcome.

    I have a a 9mm M&P Shield for carry, but things like this are making me consider a .45 with hollow points, to try to prevent overpenetration. 

     

    • #15
    • May 14, 2018 at 6:50 pm
    • 2 likes
  16. Thatcher

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    Once the criminal’s gun comes out, do what’s safest for the mostest fastest. His intentions count for naught.

    This! Especially the rhyming bit…

    • #16
    • May 15, 2018 at 1:44 am
    • 2 likes
  17. Contributor
    Kevin Creighton Post author

    cirby (View Comment):

    I have a a 9mm M&P Shield for carry, but things like this are making me consider a .45 with hollow points, to try to prevent overpenetration.

    Carry the Shield (it’s what I do, and it’s an effective little gun) and fill it up with good jacketed hollow point (JHP). I’m a huge fan of Federal HST’s myself, because they did very well in one of the most comprehensive ammo tests I’ve ever seen (and yes, that is yet another Lucky Gunner link… What can I say? They do good work! :) ). If not the HST’s, then Gold Dots or Golden Sabers or the new SIG stuff or anything that a) penetrates between 12 and 16 inches into gel and b) opens up (the two tend to be related…) will work just peachy in your Shield.

    • #17
    • May 15, 2018 at 6:09 am
    • 1 like
  18. Member

    Also, of note, the video states her firearm was .40 cal. Not a round to be disrespected.

    That guy soaked up three rounds. He wasn’t having any fun, for sure, but he was still alive. Shot #2 was close and at/near the heart. There is an expectation that that would be a show-stopper. Apparently not.

    Lesson learned (or at least reinforced): If it’s not a CNS kill shot, you haven’t flipped a switch; you’ve started a timer.

    • #18
    • May 15, 2018 at 6:50 am
    • 2 likes
  19. Thatcher

    Bob Wainwright (View Comment):
    It’s not clear that she should have started shooting. That should only be done if it reduces the likelihood that someone is going to get hurt. Not merely to stop a robbery.

    In an armed robbery, there is a high likelihood someone will be shot. The lady had milliseconds to make a decision, and her primary focus was on the robber whose gun was already out. Normally, we take time to make sure the area behind a target is clear, but those are controlled situations such as on the range or hunting. There are cases where one doesn’t have the luxury, and this was clearly (IMHO) one of those cases.

    The lady “done good” as we say down “heyah” in SC . . .

    • #19
    • May 15, 2018 at 7:22 am
    • 3 likes
  20. Thatcher

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    Also, of note, the video states her firearm was .40 cal. Not a round to be disrespected.

    My preference over the 9mm . . .

    • #20
    • May 15, 2018 at 7:22 am
    • 2 likes
  21. Thatcher

    Kevin Creighton (View Comment):
    Carry the Shield (it’s what I do, and it’s an effective little gun) and fill it up with good jacketed hollow point (JHP). I’m a huge fan of Federal HST’s myself, because they did very well in one of the most comprehensive ammo tests I’ve ever seen

    I’m a fan of the Hornady XTP and FTX rounds. What is your opinion of them? I’m open to suggestion.

    • #21
    • May 15, 2018 at 7:25 am
    • 2 likes
  22. Contributor
    Kevin Creighton Post author

    Stad (View Comment):

    I’m a fan of the Hornady XTP and FTX rounds. What is your opinion of them? I’m open to suggestion.

    They’ll work. They do the job. I’ve carried them in my LCP in the past. 

    Which brings up an interesting point: Ballistics is a goofy thing. A bullet that might work great in one caliber might kinda suck in another. HST’s, for instance, are the current hotness in 9mm’s, but they sorta suck out of a .38. Look for a round that works well in a bunch of calibrated FBI tests, where they check their gel for consistency and shoot thru four layers of denim. Aside from Lucky Gunner, BrassFetcher and TNOutdoors9 both do excellent ammo tests. 

    • #22
    • May 15, 2018 at 8:15 am
    • 2 likes
  23. Member

    Just some info:

    Carry rounds that are used by, and available to law enforcement agencies. Hand loading hot rounds could be a legal problem. I use 147 grain 9MM Speer Gold Dots, that’s a common LE round. I also use those rounds on the range, so I’m familiar with the recoil. That being said there is a wide range of calibers used in LE that would be available to the CHL holder.

    Spend a little money and if possible find an instructor that specializes in tactical shooting. Find a range that allows you to draw and shoot from your holster. Practice is the key to develop muscle memory that you will need to overcome the adrenaline dump in an actual shooting situation. There is a big difference between shooting at paper and a human being.

    • #23
    • May 15, 2018 at 8:59 am
    • 3 likes
  24. Member

    Kevin Creighton (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    I have a a 9mm M&P Shield for carry, but things like this are making me consider a .45 with hollow points, to try to prevent overpenetration.

    Carry the Shield (it’s what I do, and it’s an effective little gun) and fill it up with good jacketed hollow point (JHP). I’m a huge fan of Federal HST’s myself, because they did very well in one of the most comprehensive ammo tests I’ve ever seen (and yes, that is yet another Lucky Gunner link… What can I say? They do good work! :) ). If not the HST’s, then Gold Dots or Golden Sabers or the new SIG stuff or anything that a) penetrates between 12 and 16 inches into gel and b) opens up (the two tend to be related…) will work just peachy in your Shield.

    That’s my setup – with the addition of the “long” 8 round magazines. If I don’t use the extension, the Shield is basically a two-finger grip for me. It shoots surprisingly good for such a tiny pistol – about as good as my big Walther PPX, which is pretty friggin’ huge for a 9mm pistol, and is only reasonably concealable when I wear a coat. In Florida.

    • #24
    • May 15, 2018 at 6:35 pm
    • 2 likes
  25. Member

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Bob Wainwright (View Comment):

    It’s not clear that she should have started shooting. That should only be done if it reduces the likelihood that someone is going to get hurt. Not merely to stop a robbery. It’s case by case and a subjective call. She should only have done that if she thought the perp was about to shoot someone. Look how close she came to getting shot herself or someone else getting hit when he returned fire.

    Wholly disagree, brother. If a criminal miscreant is willing to pull a gun for the purposes of taking your resources (when kids are present!), then that criminal has lost all benefit of the doubt. If he violates the norms of a civil society to that extent, in the moment, then a sane, civil person cannot ponder “why?” and “what if?”

    What if his purpose was to get some cash/credit cards (not a bad site selection for him, then. Most of the moms would probably hand over their purposes willingly to keep shots from being fired near their children). What if after that he wanted to grab some pediatric strange to enjoy whilst he intoxicated himself, enabled by the fruits of his ill-gotten gains?

    He determined he’d bring a gun to the table. The law abiding citizen should not be saddled with determining whether it’s just a motivational prop, whether it’s there for personal protection during the crime, or whether it’s present so that once he gets some frogskins, he can get his mass-shooter-in-front-of-a-school mojo on.

    Once the criminal’s gun comes out, do what’s safest for the mostest fastest. His intentions count for naught.

    Nope. Once someone presents lethal capability in pursuit of an illicit objective, he’s done. No benefit of the doubt.

    Im not worrying about the perp. I agree, he’s forfeited his right to life when he pulls the gun. I’d be worrying about me or someone else that might get shot. So you shoot or don’t shoot based on that consideration alone. 

    • #25
    • May 16, 2018 at 6:05 am
    • 2 likes
  26. Contributor
    Kevin Creighton Post author

    cirby (View Comment):
    That’s my setup – with the addition of the “long” 8 round magazines.

    I installed one of the MagGuts +1 followers in one of my 8 round mags, and it works great: No hiccups thru 100+ rounds. I now have 9+1, and I’m considering ditching carrying around a spare mag.

    • #26
    • May 16, 2018 at 6:10 am
    • Like