All Voting is Virtue Signaling

 

virtue-sginaling“Virtue Signaling” seems to be the newest insult fad. Everyone is looking to dismiss those they disagree with as simply virtue signaling while their tribe is the epitome of pragmatic sensibility.

#NeverTrumpers are signalling their virtue that Trump and Hillary are so beyond the pale that neither of them deserve their vote. Meanwhile, #ReluctantTrumpers are signalling their virtue that they can swallow their pride and do what they believe is best for the country. #Trumpers are signalling their virtue that everyone else can take a hike: They aren’t going to feel guilty for what they believe.

By any sane metric, voting is a colossal waste of time. You’re more likely to win the lottery than change the outcome of a presidential election. You can say that, if everyone thought like that, that you’d then stand a much stronger likelihood of affecting the election, but — when it comes down to you personally standing in the booth — your act will almost certainly make no difference to the final outcome.

Most of life is signaling. Even graduating from college is mostly signaling your intelligence as well as your ability to commit and follow through, all things employers value more than your grade in English Lit. If no one signaled, we couldn’t communicate real information and society would come to a halt. If no one signaled their perceived virtue, actual virtue could never propagate.

I’m sure you could even argue that I am virtue signaling in this post, but that’s okay! That something contains virtue signaling neither makes it wrong, nor makes it unworthy of being said.

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  1. Tom Meyer Member
    Tom Meyer
    @tommeyer

    Mike H:Most of life is signaling. Even graduating college is mostly signaling your intelligence as well as your ability to commit and follow through, all things employers value more than your grade in English Lit. If no one signaled, we couldn’t communicate real information and society would come to a halt. If no one signaled their perceived virtue then actual virtue could never propagate.

    Let’s not even talk about first dates. ;)

    • #1
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    I think you are stretching the term way to far. VS means showing others I am in the right group. Voting is an attempt to change the outcome. While one vote has little effect, those effects clearly add up. My $1 to Project Eliminate might not stop infant tetneus on its own, but the dollars add up and mean something.

    VS is posting a hashtag and then doing nothing.

    • #2
  3. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    • #3
  4. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Maybe I conflate the two things because I’m seeing people on Ricochet conflate them.

    • #4
  5. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    It’s also probably not that binary. A celebrity’s tweet may be virtue signaling to her peers and to higher rank individuals and an attempt to assert superior status and influence the thinking and/or behavior of lower status individuals.

    • #5
  6. She Member
    She
    @She

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    I hope that’s true.

    If we’ve reached a point where holding any position, feeling good about doing so, thinking that it’s right, and then saying so, is ‘virtue-signaling’ (which is a bad thing, no?), then things have come to a pretty pass.

    I, for one, think accusing someone of ‘virtue-signaling’ is often the first step on an path to accusing him of ‘bad faith.’  Virtue-signaling always implies, ‘I see what you say, but I know what you are really thinking’).  Never a good start to a civil conversation, IMHO.

    • #6
  7. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    Accusations of virtue signaling is essentially accusing person of bad faith, i.e. making a declarative a position based on how one wants to be perceived rather the position (or action) one would take in the absence of declaring a position publicly.

    • #7
  8. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    She:

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    I hope that’s true.

    If we’ve reached a point where holding any position, feeling good about doing so, thinking that it’s right, and then saying so, is ‘virtue-signaling’ (which is a bad thing, no?), then things have come to a pretty pass.

    I, for one, think accusing someone of ‘virtue-signaling’ is often the first step on an path to accusing him of ‘bad faith.’ Virtue-signaling always implies, ‘I see what you say, but I know what you are really thinking’). Never a good start to a civil conversation, IMHO.

    Good minds think alike?

    • #8
  9. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    Z in MT:

    She:

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    I hope that’s true.

    If we’ve reached a point where holding any position, feeling good about doing so, thinking that it’s right, and then saying so, is ‘virtue-signaling’ (which is a bad thing, no?), then things have come to a pretty pass.

    I, for one, think accusing someone of ‘virtue-signaling’ is often the first step on an path to accusing him of ‘bad faith.’ Virtue-signaling always implies, ‘I see what you say, but I know what you are really thinking’). Never a good start to a civil conversation, IMHO.

    Good minds think alike?

    That last comment was the definition of virtue signaling.

    • #9
  10. KC Mulville Inactive
    KC Mulville
    @KCMulville

    Game theory lesson #3: individuals and groups belong to different orders of decision-making. A group doesn’t make a decision like an individual does, and an individual doesn’t decide like a group. That’s why the Prisoner’s Dilemma is a dilemma; it leads to a group-inferior outcome, even though every individual acted as best they could.

    Yes, an individual’s vote will not decide the group as it would for the individual. That’s because group decision-making is different.

    As @bryangstephens said above, if you do happen to treat a group vote as if it were an individual decision, then you’d be signalling what group you belong to.

    • #10
  11. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    The act of voting is not virtue signalling.

    Perhaps what Mike is referring to is the act of talking about one’s vote.

    • #11
  12. She Member
    She
    @She

    Z in MT:

    She:

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    I hope that’s true.

    If we’ve reached a point where holding any position, feeling good about doing so, thinking that it’s right, and then saying so, is ‘virtue-signaling’ (which is a bad thing, no?), then things have come to a pretty pass.

    I, for one, think accusing someone of ‘virtue-signaling’ is often the first step on an path to accusing him of ‘bad faith.’ Virtue-signaling always implies, ‘I see what you say, but I know what you are really thinking’). Never a good start to a civil conversation, IMHO.

    Good minds think alike?

    Or, as dear old Mum used to say, fools seldom differ?

    • #12
  13. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    She:

    Z in MT:

    She:

    drlorentz:The OP conflates signaling and virtue signaling. True that humans engage in many kinds of signaling. But it is not all virtue signaling. This term has a specific meaning and does not apply to all the examples in the OP.

    I hope that’s true.

    If we’ve reached a point where holding any position, feeling good about doing so, thinking that it’s right, and then saying so, is ‘virtue-signaling’ (which is a bad thing, no?), then things have come to a pretty pass.

    I, for one, think accusing someone of ‘virtue-signaling’ is often the first step on an path to accusing him of ‘bad faith.’ Virtue-signaling always implies, ‘I see what you say, but I know what you are really thinking’). Never a good start to a civil conversation, IMHO.

    Good minds think alike?

    Or, as dear old Mum used to say, fools seldom differ?

    LOL!

    • #13
  14. Matt Upton Inactive
    Matt Upton
    @MattUpton

    This feels like it should be a 10,000 word essay on Slate Star Codex (and I would read it all). I suppose the difference between virtue signalling and being virtuous is the difference between wanting to be a good person and wanting to be seen as being a good person.

    I try not to fault a person for failing to live up to their own stated morals. We are all human. What is insufferable are those who use their morals as a club while not even attempting to live up to the standards themselves (see Pharisees). Or worse, some will explain away their bad behavior because it was for a good cause/the offended party deserved it (see slavery or radical SJWs).

    Considering we speak in a relatively closed community at Ricochet, we can give each other the benefit of the doubt that we really are trying to be the people we project. Now excuse me while I go back to my custom furniture making I send to natural disaster victims in 3rd world nations while sipping free-trade coffee and listening to a Dostoevsky audio book. (Okay, okay, playing video games, drinking Dr. Pepper, and listening to Pitbull.)

    • #14
  15. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    Mike H:Maybe I conflate the two things because I’m seeing people on Ricochet conflate them.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. If others are conflating two distinct concepts, you’re not helping by aiding and abetting in the confusion. All human communication can be dubbed signaling. Virtue signaling has a specific meaning. I’ll take this one:

    Virtue signalling is the expression or promotion of viewpoints that are especially valued within a social group, especially when this is done primarily to enhance the social standing of the speaker.

    It is related to the concept of slacktivism. In both cases, the perpetrator is seeking to improve his image without taking action. It is seen that this bears no resemblance to graduating from college or voting. The utility of voting in terms of game theory or other considerations is an interesting topic in its own right but outside the scope of this discussion.

    • #15
  16. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    Z in MT:Accusations of virtue signaling is essentially accusing person of bad faith, i.e. making a declarative a position based on how one wants to be perceived rather the position (or action) one would take in the absence of declaring a position publicly.

    While it’s always risky to impute motives to others, it is also quite possible that an individual is engaging in an activity for the sole or principal purpose of self-aggrandizement. The accusation may be considered rude or unjustified, or it may be right on target. Slacktivism is a prima facie form of virtue signaling. It’s possible that the slacktivist intends to follow through with action, but that’s not the way to bet.

    • #16
  17. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    rico:The act of voting is not virtue signalling.

    Perhaps what Mike is referring to is the act of talking about one’s vote.

    I liked the sound of the title I used better, but mostly, yes.

    • #17
  18. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    drlorentz:

    Mike H:Maybe I conflate the two things because I’m seeing people on Ricochet conflate them.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. If others are conflating two distinct concepts, you’re not helping by aiding and abetting in the confusion.

    I’m sorry you feel that way. At least it sparked this conversation in the comments. Thanks for pointing it out.

    • #18
  19. Quinn the Eskimo Member
    Quinn the Eskimo
    @

    #NeverVirtueSignal

    • #19
  20. drlorentz Member
    drlorentz
    @drlorentz

    Mike H:

    drlorentz:

    Mike H:Maybe I conflate the two things because I’m seeing people on Ricochet conflate them.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. If others are conflating two distinct concepts, you’re not helping by aiding and abetting in the confusion.

    I’m sorry you feel that way. At least it sparked this conversation in the comments. Thanks for pointing it out.

    There are many ways to spark a conversation. Not all ways are equally useful. For example, Mr. Trump has sparked many conversations on Ricochet and throughout the land.

    The OP could have sparked a better conversation about virtue signaling by pointing out the confusion, preferably with examples, rather than engaging in it. Frankly, I have not noticed the use of the term in the way you suggest.

    • #20
  21. Tim McNabb Member
    Tim McNabb
    @TimMcNabb

    I get the point of the post, but I think it misses the point of the insult. Virtue Signalling is, in my mind, a substitute for actual virtue. One signals virtue rather than actually engaging in virtue.

    For example, treating others as you wish to be treated without regard to race, color, religion, national origin (etc.) is virtue.

    Virtue Signalling is loudly denouncing racism, or Islamophobia but engaging in soft bigotry and animosity toward groups who are unfashionable.

    • #21
  22. Man With the Axe Inactive
    Man With the Axe
    @ManWiththeAxe

    I appreciate the OP. Regardless of whether the assertion is correct that all voting is virtue signaling, what is undeniably true is that accusations of virtue-signaling have proliferated on Ricochet. These accusations, as I see it, are often used instead of arguments.

    “I think Hillary is much worse than Trump.”

    “I’m not so sure.”

    “You are virtue-signaling.”

    I’ve had half a dozen conversations that went just like that.

    • #22
  23. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    As a Reluctant Trump voter, I certainly don’t see voting for Trump as a virtuous act. I see it as embracing the cross in this tragic-comedy known as “life.” Suffer and die, baby. Until then, pray for mercy and do the best you can in a fallen world.

    • #23
  24. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    drlorentz: Virtue signaling has a specific meaning. I’ll take this one:

    Virtue signalling is the expression or promotion of viewpoints that are especially valued within a social group, especially when this is done primarily to enhance the social standing of the speaker.

    But is that not what often happens here, when someone essentially makes the argument, “I’m a better Ricochetian that you because I’m voting-for/not-voting-for X”?

    We are all part of a social group, the Ricochet membership, within which social group are various cliques, and yes it is possible to jockey for status within and between cliques.

    The Rabble Alliance promotes its Rabble-Alliance-ness, the reluctant Trumpers promote their reluctance, and the #NeverTrumps their #Never-ness. All are expressing or promoting a viewpoint especially valued within some social group.

    • #24
  25. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    Ahh… not really.    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/i-invented-virtue-signalling-now-its-taking-over-the-world/

    “One of the crucial aspects of virtue signalling is that it does not require actually doing anything virtuous. It does not involve delivering lunches to elderly neighbours or staying together with a spouse for the sake of the children. It takes no effort or sacrifice at all.”

    Each party listed would disagree about the nature of their vote or non-vote being virtuous which is defined as a standard of moral behavior.

    vir·tu·ous

    [ˈvərCHo͞oəs]

    ADJECTIVE

    1. having or showing high moral standards:

      No one would assign a vote for either Trump or Clinton as having a high moral standard.  A non-vote is more convincing.

    • #25
  26. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Western Chauvinist:As a Reluctant Trump voter, I certainly don’t see voting for Trump as a virtuous act. I see it as embracing the cross in this tragic-comedy known as “life.”

    … and embracing the cross is not a virtuous act?

    Suffer and die, baby. Until then, pray for mercy and do the best you can in a fallen world.

    I think I know what you mean, and I don’t think for a minute you’re being smug or smarmy by calling it “embracing the cross” or saying that an act of embracing the cross is not virtuous, just another tragicomic absurdity. But those with less reason than you have had (and you have had ample reason) to develop a keen sense of the absurd could wonder at such a description :-)

    • #26
  27. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    Man With the Axe:I appreciate the OP. Regardless of whether the assertion is correct that all voting is virtue signaling, what is undeniably true is that accusations of virtue-signaling have proliferated on Ricochet. These accusations, as I see it, are often used instead of arguments.

    “I think Hillary is much worse than Trump.”

    “I’m not so sure.”

    “You are virtue-signaling.”

    I’ve had half a dozen conversations that went just like that.

    This is where I also think the OP was trying to go – i.e. there has been a lot of accusations of virtue signaling on Ricochet. Rather than trying to make virtue signaling less bad, I would rather push back against the accusation. Nobody at Ricochet is trumpeting* their #NeverTrump status to signal their virtue. Only other Ricochetti care about what is posted at Ricochet, i.e. we are not trying to impress our peers, we are trying to convince our peers of our way of thinking about the situation. The same would go for the pro-Trump, and reluctant Trump crowd. They are trying to convince their peers of their way of thinking.

    *(pun noticed, not intended)

    • #27
  28. EHerring Coolidge
    EHerring
    @EHerring

    You forgot a group, and that group isn’t signaling virtue but sending a message to fellow voters that our values are not to be ignored and our vote should not be taken for granted if they want to win. They say we are supporting Hillary, that Hillary would be worse, that we will be blamed if we don’t vote.  What better year to send home the shocking realization that we are a force to be listened to than when they most fear a loss.  And if they don’t get it before November, then let them feel the bitter outcome of rejecting us for the next four years.  Nothing else has gotten their attention, not even 8 years of Obama.  If anything, they have gotten worse.

    • #28
  29. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Z in MT: Only other Ricochetti care about what is posted at Ricochet, i.e. we are not trying to impress our peers, we are trying to convince our peers of our way of thinking about the situation. The same would go for the pro-Trump, and reluctant Trump crowd. They are trying to convince their peers of their way of thinking.

    Hey, we agree on something! Isn’t that the point of (especially political) conversation? To try to persuade?

    In general, I agree with Mike that status is a big driver of human behavior. The act of voting is really outside the realm of status-seeking, though, because it’s a private act done in the secrecy of the voting booth.

    • #29
  30. Ball Diamond Ball Member
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    What a miserable outlook.

    • #30
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