The Dog Phenomenon

 

From time immemorial, the human race has obeyed the biological imperative. Societies traditionally channeled much of their energy into reproducing themselves. Until now. Parenthood is falling into obsolescence, to be replaced by such simulacra as dog parenthood, cat parenthood, and plant parenthood (not to be confused, of course, with Planned Parenthood). About one out of every two dating profiles features the words “dog mom,” “dog mama,” or some variant thereof. Millennials spend lavishly on dogs. They live for dogs, talk about dogs, think about dogs — everything short of worshipping them.

Why is this happening? The usual explanation takes the form of economic determinism. Raising children is costly. “Raising” a dog is less costly. Lacking money, the argument goes, Millennials “raise” dogs instead of children. This may be part of the explanation, but not the complete one. Something else is happening — something more insidious, and something likely to stand in the way of parenting even if all financial burdens were lifted by a benevolent state. No, Millennials fear a different kind of burden, I think. Here’s my theory:

Millennials prefer dogs to children because dogs, unlike children, require no moral formation. A dog never asks the question, “Why?” A dog obeys no code of ethics, and thus a dog cannot rebel. Yes, a dog’s owner might say, “You’re such a good boy!” out of a sense of anthropomorphizing affection, but what she means is, “My Pavlovian conditioning has worked wonders!” She is not praising the dog’s goodness, since a dog can have no goodness — only dogness, which may be pleasant or beneficial to humans in one way or another, but which occupies its own spot in the moral universe. Dogs do not experience angst or ennui. A dog will not wake up one morning, dye its fur blue, announce its intention to identify as “they,” and join the local chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America. Instead, a dog concerns itself with more pressing matters, such as the chewiness of this or that rubber bone or the tastiness of this or that mailman.

A dog, in other words, offers a would-be parent the opportunity to dote without the existential burdens of parenting. It offers the ice cream without the salad. A dog is what it is, and an owner’s duties to it are clear and universally acknowledged. Take it on walks, feed it regularly, scoop up its droppings, toss some fake femurs into the near distance, and you shall be rewarded with the unconditional affection which is a dog’s nature.

Eons ago, far back in the mists of time, children were more like dogs. They had a nature, and society recognized certain duties concomitant with that nature. Much has changed. Man is now whatever man decides to be. Ours is the age of the existential hero. It is up to us, and to our children, to define our “own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life,” as Anthony Kennedy once said. And for an increasing number, that concept of meaning no longer includes parenthood. Society has fractured into ten-thousand subcultures, each with its own code of conduct and its own substantive conception of the human person, and all are knit together by the ethic of nonjudgmentalism. Rules, structures, guidance — these things are to be avoided, or even shamed, in the public square. As families grow ever smaller, fewer and fewer of us spend any real time around children, and fewer and fewer of us, therefore, have the innate knowledge of how to relate to children that our ancestors took for granted. It is easy to do something when everyone else is doing it, too. When everybody is marrying and everybody is having kids, marrying and having kids is easy enough. When nobody is marrying or having kids, marrying and having kids becomes a Herculean task.

If she does decide to raise children, the new parent is immediately confronted with the awesome responsibility involved. What kind of man do I want my son to be? What kind of woman do I want my daughter to be? What things are good and bad? What should I forbid and permit? What kind of culture should I expose my child to? How do I answer his pesky questions? All difficult. Too difficult. My head hurts! I think I’ll play fetch instead.

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  1. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Remember the olden days when people would just have “Puppies to give away free!” on a cardboard box?

    These days you have places thoroughly vetting your home to see if you are suitable to “adopt” a dog for several hundred dollars.

    I sort of get the rescue thing, since the people involved with those see some really bad stuff happen to dogs.

    But they’re still nuts.  Before we got our dog over the winter (from a family who’s Golden Retriever had puppies) we had been investigating adopting through a couple rescue organizations.  In fact “Nuts” barely even begins to describe it.

    Home visits, applications requiring to list every pet you’ve owned for the last 40 years, including references from the vets you used  so they can be sure you took the animals in regularly.  At least the pandemic was preventing the home visits.

    They don’t understand that at the end of the day, it’s just a dog.

     

     

    • #31
  2. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Remember the olden days when people would just have “Puppies to give away free!” on a cardboard box?

    These days you have places thoroughly vetting your home to see if you are suitable to “adopt” a dog for several hundred dollars.

    I sort of get the rescue thing, since the people involved with those see some really bad stuff happen to dogs.

    But they’re still nuts. Before we got our dog over the winter (from a family who’s Golden Retriever had puppies) we had been investigating adopting through a couple rescue organizations. In fact “Nuts” barely even begins to describe it.

    Home visits, applications requiring to list every pet you’ve owned for the last 40 years, including references from the vets you used so they can be sure you took the animals in regularly. At least the pandemic was preventing the home visits.

    They don’t understand that at the end of the day, it’s just a dog.

    Same with the bird rescues.  I have volunteered for them and tried to adopt one.  They want premium adoption fees, visits for what is usually an emotionally and physically damaged bird.  While the amount did not bother me the home visits are BS and reference list is silly.  They are birds.  It is bad they are unwanted and mistreated but the point should be to move them on their way and try to get them good homes.  Not to make it harder to get a bird than to adopt a human.

    • #32
  3. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Not to make it harder to get a bird than to adopt a human.

    Well, when pets are considered more important than humans, it is to be expected.

    Plus, we never seem to see people insisting that their critters are a different sex, much less paying for a sex change. 

    • #33
  4. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob

    All this led to the really high end dog food companies that deliver human grade dog food to your home packed in dry ice. As a result, my dogs’ food now costs more than my own. 

    • #34
  5. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Remember the olden days when people would just have “Puppies to give away free!” on a cardboard box?

    These days you have places thoroughly vetting your home to see if you are suitable to “adopt” a dog for several hundred dollars.

    I sort of get the rescue thing, since the people involved with those see some really bad stuff happen to dogs.

    But they’re still nuts. Before we got our dog over the winter (from a family who’s Golden Retriever had puppies) we had been investigating adopting through a couple rescue organizations. In fact “Nuts” barely even begins to describe it.

    Home visits, applications requiring to list every pet you’ve owned for the last 40 years, including references from the vets you used so they can be sure you took the animals in regularly. At least the pandemic was preventing the home visits.

    They don’t understand that at the end of the day, it’s just a dog.

    When they’d prefer to euthanize a dog rather than place it in a decent home, then you know something’s haywire in the brain pan.

    • #35
  6. Max Knots Member
    Max Knots
    @MaxKnots

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Parenting / children seems to me to be a giant money suck with no ROI. I have seen too many of my friends treat their parents wrong or others who children are complete drug addicted terrors destroying all around them. Lot of risk in the parenting venture.

    Not sure about the whole dog mom / cat dad thing. Sounds creepy.

    I do have a pet. A parrot. I had to put it down in April. It is saddening. I got another one and now I have to start training all over again. A bit frustrating.

    It seems to me that a lot of people (usually women) try to turn their kids into their best friends. Seems to cause issues for both.

    I hope you are being facetious.  Life cannot be lived without risk. And yes, parenthood comes with risks of disappointment, just as relationships.  But the long term potential is so great that the risk is worth it.  Parenthood is an exercise in optimism. We hope that in the end, we will have grandchildren who love us as much as we love them.  Having children is also an expression of the gratitude due our ancestors for their difficult choices and the hardship they endured so that we could be alive today.  Their lives were far less prosperous and far more dangerous than ours.  They risked losing their offspring and their spouses to an endless list of diseases, wars, and natural disasters.  And still they took the chance of parenthood.  I honor them by continuing what they started.  

    Human capital is real.  We are not just consumers.  Somewhere in this world, someday, there will be born someone who will have an idea never before thought.  And that idea will help the rest of us survive, thrive, and maybe even explore this magnificent universe.

    You’re right that children are “not” meant to be our best friends.  We are their living examples, their mentors, and their appreciators.  But we are also their judge and jury when needed.  Our love means we want them capable of recognizing and making the best long-term choices so that their own lives will be joyful and useful in ways we cannot imagine.  This is not something they can learn unattended.

     

    • #36
  7. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    • #37
  8. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Weeping (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    A big one.

    • #38
  9. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    A big one.

    It’s a great Dane without clipped ears, I believe. 

    • #39
  10. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Max Knots (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Parenting / children seems to me to be a giant money suck with no ROI. I have seen too many of my friends treat their parents wrong or others who children are complete drug addicted terrors destroying all around them. Lot of risk in the parenting venture.

    Not sure about the whole dog mom / cat dad thing. Sounds creepy.

    I do have a pet. A parrot. I had to put it down in April. It is saddening. I got another one and now I have to start training all over again. A bit frustrating.

    It seems to me that a lot of people (usually women) try to turn their kids into their best friends. Seems to cause issues for both.

    I hope you are being facetious. Life cannot be lived without risk. And yes, parenthood comes with risks of disappointment, just as relationships. But the long term potential is so great that the risk is worth it. Parenthood is an exercise in optimism. We hope that in the end, we will have grandchildren who love us as much as we love them. Having children is also an expression of the gratitude due our ancestors for their difficult choices and the hardship they endured so that we could be alive today. Their lives were far less prosperous and far more dangerous than ours. They risked losing their offspring and their spouses to an endless list of diseases, wars, and natural disasters. And still they took the chance of parenthood. I honor them by continuing what they started.

    Human capital is real. We are not just consumers. Somewhere in this world, someday, there will be born someone who will have an idea never before thought. And that idea will help the rest of us survive, thrive, and maybe even explore this magnificent universe.

    You’re right that children are “not” meant to be our best friends. We are their living examples, their mentors, and their appreciators. But we are also their judge and jury when needed. Our love means we want them capable of recognizing and making the best long-term choices so that their own lives will be joyful and useful in ways we cannot imagine. This is not something they can learn unattended.

     

    Outstanding comment, Max.

    • #40
  11. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Evening Max,

    Wonderful comment.  To add to your comment I would add that one becomes more fully human only after becoming a parent.  One starts caring about the neighborhood and the schools and what is in the songs your children listen to.  Here is the problem, on one hand we have the Amish whose families average 6+ children but who stop going to school at the eighth grade, on the other hand we encourage young women to follow their intellectual interests as far as they choose.  Our society benefits from the women who have invested in their education.  The cost is the number of children decreases as the education of women increases.  Part of this is just peak fertility conflicts with college and graduate school, add to the this that once someone has spent years following an intellectual path they are less likely to do nothing with it and choose to have children when they are young.  When I was in high school (graduated in 1965, class had 800 students) I only knew one student who came from a single parent family and everyone of the kids on the street I lived on come from a family where the mother stayed at home even though many were college eduacated.  My mom was a head nurse who stopped working when I was born.  At that time, the choice that my parents made was the most common choice even if that meant that we only had one car until mom was almost 35.  Pop was a doc so, even middle class folks were living with fewer material things.  This is to say the causes of our falling population are complex.  I agree that when a people can’t even bother to have children at replacement levels, the society is choosing a slow suicide., I think the West is making that a choice.  In a way we have said to ourselves that children will block me from fully realizing my potential.  This is a love of autonomy and self and a rejection of obligation.

    • #41
  12. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Max Knots (View Comment):
    Max Knots @MaxKnots 1 Hour Ago

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Parenting / children seems to me to be a giant money suck with no ROI. I have seen too many of my friends treat their parents wrong or others who children are complete drug addicted terrors destroying all around them. Lot of risk in the parenting venture.

    Not sure about the whole dog mom / cat dad thing. Sounds creepy.

    I do have a pet. A parrot. I had to put it down in April. It is saddening. I got another one and now I have to start training all over again. A bit frustrating.

    It seems to me that a lot of people (usually women) try to turn their kids into their best friends. Seems to cause issues for both.

    I hope you are being facetious.  Life cannot be lived without risk. And yes, parenthood comes with risks of disappointment, just as relationships.  But the long term potential is so great that the risk is worth it.  Parenthood is an exercise in optimism. We hope that in the end, we will have grandchildren who love us as much as we love them.  Having children is also an expression of the gratitude due our ancestors for their difficult choices and the hardship they endured so that we could be alive today.  Their lives were far less prosperous and far more dangerous than ours.  They risked losing their offspring and their spouses to an endless list of diseases, wars, and natural disasters.  And still they took the chance of parenthood.  I honor them by continuing what they started.

    Human capital is real.  We are not just consumers.  Somewhere in this world, someday, there will be born someone who will have an idea never before thought.  And that idea will help the rest of us survive, thrive, and maybe even explore this magnificent universe.

    You’re right that children are “not” meant to be our best friends.  We are their living examples, their mentors, and their appreciators.  But we are also their judge and jury when needed.  Our love means we want them capable of recognizing and making the best long-term choices so that their own lives will be joyful and useful in ways we cannot imagine.  This is not something they can learn unattended.

    This leads me to say that a woman once told me that having a child was like taking your heart out and rolling it down the sidewalk and hoping that everyone else would be kind to it and not hurt it.

    • #42
  13. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Max Knots (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Parenting / children seems to me to be a giant money suck with no ROI. I have seen too many of my friends treat their parents wrong or others who children are complete drug addicted terrors destroying all around them. Lot of risk in the parenting venture.

    Not sure about the whole dog mom / cat dad thing. Sounds creepy.

    I do have a pet. A parrot. I had to put it down in April. It is saddening. I got another one and now I have to start training all over again. A bit frustrating.

    It seems to me that a lot of people (usually women) try to turn their kids into their best friends. Seems to cause issues for both.

    I hope you are being facetious. Life cannot be lived without risk. And yes, parenthood comes with risks of disappointment, just as relationships. But the long term potential is so great that the risk is worth it. Parenthood is an exercise in optimism. We hope that in the end, we will have grandchildren who love us as much as we love them. Having children is also an expression of the gratitude due our ancestors for their difficult choices and the hardship they endured so that we could be alive today. Their lives were far less prosperous and far more dangerous than ours. They risked losing their offspring and their spouses to an endless list of diseases, wars, and natural disasters. And still they took the chance of parenthood. I honor them by continuing what they started.

    Human capital is real. We are not just consumers. Somewhere in this world, someday, there will be born someone who will have an idea never before thought. And that idea will help the rest of us survive, thrive, and maybe even explore this magnificent universe.

    You’re right that children are “not” meant to be our best friends. We are their living examples, their mentors, and their appreciators. But we are also their judge and jury when needed. Our love means we want them capable of recognizing and making the best long-term choices so that their own lives will be joyful and useful in ways we cannot imagine. This is not something they can learn unattended.

     

    Our a ancestors had a multitude of children because they did not have reliable contraception.  And needed a workforce to survive.  Both those issues have been resolved.  Thus why we are not having children any more.

    • #43
  14. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    Max Knots (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Parenting / children seems to me to be a giant money suck with no ROI. I have seen too many of my friends treat their parents wrong or others who children are complete drug addicted terrors destroying all around them. Lot of risk in the parenting venture.

    Not sure about the whole dog mom / cat dad thing. Sounds creepy.

    I do have a pet. A parrot. I had to put it down in April. It is saddening. I got another one and now I have to start training all over again. A bit frustrating.

    It seems to me that a lot of people (usually women) try to turn their kids into their best friends. Seems to cause issues for both.

    I hope you are being facetious. Life cannot be lived without risk. And yes, parenthood comes with risks of disappointment, just as relationships. But the long term potential is so great that the risk is worth it. Parenthood is an exercise in optimism. We hope that in the end, we will have grandchildren who love us as much as we love them. Having children is also an expression of the gratitude due our ancestors for their difficult choices and the hardship they endured so that we could be alive today. Their lives were far less prosperous and far more dangerous than ours. They risked losing their offspring and their spouses to an endless list of diseases, wars, and natural disasters. And still they took the chance of parenthood. I honor them by continuing what they started.

    Human capital is real. We are not just consumers. Somewhere in this world, someday, there will be born someone who will have an idea never before thought. And that idea will help the rest of us survive, thrive, and maybe even explore this magnificent universe.

    You’re right that children are “not” meant to be our best friends. We are their living examples, their mentors, and their appreciators. But we are also their judge and jury when needed. Our love means we want them capable of recognizing and making the best long-term choices so that their own lives will be joyful and useful in ways we cannot imagine. This is not something they can learn unattended.

    Again, as I said, the conservative argument is “Having children is your duty and responsibility.”  If that argument actually worked, we would be in a completely different place as a society.   It’s like someone telling you to buy a horse and learn to ride it as it is your responsibility, your duty.  The people you want to persuade are going to laugh at you.

     

    • #44
  15. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Our a ancestors had a multitude of children because they did not have reliable contraception.  And needed a workforce to survive.  Both those issues have been resolved.  Thus why we are not having children any more.

    Parallel to this, I once said to a Ricochet member that we reproduce because God spoke: Go forth and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it.

    And she said: Well, it’s already been subdued.

    • #45
  16. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Our a ancestors had a multitude of children because they did not have reliable contraception. And needed a workforce to survive. Both those issues have been resolved. Thus why we are not having children any more.

    Parallel to this, I once said to a Ricochet member that we reproduce because God spoke: Go forth and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it.

    And she said: Well, it’s already been subdued.

    Lucille?

    • #46
  17. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    A big one.

    It’s a great Dane without clipped ears, I believe.

    Thanks, Susan. I had no idea Great Danes’ ears were usually clipped. 

    • #47
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):
    Our a ancestors had a multitude of children because they did not have reliable contraception. And needed a workforce to survive. Both those issues have been resolved. Thus why we are not having children any more.

    Parallel to this, I once said to a Ricochet member that we reproduce because God spoke: Go forth and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it.

    And she said: Well, it’s already been subdued.

    Lucille?

    No.  It’s no biggie at all, but if she sees this then she can take credit.  I thought it was really insightful.

    • #48
  19. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    A big one.

    LOL! I knew I should have added And don’t say big at the end there. 

    • #49
  20. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    Jim Beck (View Comment):
    To add to your comment I would add that one becomes more fully human only after becoming a parent.

    Yes and one becomes more fully a Christian only after becoming a parent, and becoming fully aware of the import of the sacrifice that was made.

    • #50
  21. JamesSalerno Inactive
    JamesSalerno
    @JamesSalerno

    Excellent post.

    I like dogs. I find myself liking them less and less lately, mainly because at least 90% of dog owners annoy the hell out of me. And I don’t like feeling that way because it’s not the dogs fault. Good dogs are awesome.

    But dogs are not people. You have to feed a dog and give it exercise at the bare minimum. If you really want to put in the “effort,” you have to show it affection. Almost anyone is capable of doing this without making any major life changes. But relationships with other people often require sacrifices and compromise. They are not always easy, but they are far more rewarding because they’re not easy. If you seriously, honestly believe that dogs are better than people, I feel bad for you because it sounds like you haven’t formed any meaningful friendships in life.

    I don’t mean to come down hard on dogs. I really don’t. But dogs are people on easy mode.

    • #51
  22. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    Dogs or kids?

    Yes!

    This is a post about pets like dogs and cats Boss. Not about ponies.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of dog is that?

    A big one.

    It’s a great Dane without clipped ears, I believe.

    Yes. Zeus has crossed the rainbow bridge, but he was awesome.  Great family dog, incredible war dog.  Man, I miss that overgrown canine.

    • #52
  23. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    JamesSalerno (View Comment):

    I don’t mean to come down hard on dogs. I really don’t. But dogs are people on easy mode.

    Dogs are wolves with the canine equivalent of Williams Syndrome (no, seriously, that’s what the genetic science says).  There are far worse things (for either canines or humans), its most iconic symptom is being friendly and outgoing.  

     

     

    • #53
  24. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    JamesSalerno (View Comment):
    But dogs are people on easy mode.

    I get what you mean, and I laughed, but even that formulation does them a disservice. There’s so much enjoyment in understanding your dog as a dog

    • #54
  25. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Evening Max,

    Wonderful comment. To add to your comment I would add that one becomes more fully human only after becoming a parent. One starts caring about the neighborhood and the schools and what is in the songs your children listen to. Here is the problem, on one hand we have the Amish whose families average 6+ children but who stop going to school at the eighth grade, on the other hand we encourage young women to follow their intellectual interests as far as they choose. Our society benefits from the women who have invested in their education. The cost is the number of children decreases as the education of women increases. Part of this is just peak fertility conflicts with college and graduate school, add to the this that once someone has spent years following an intellectual path they are less likely to do nothing with it and choose to have children when they are young. When I was in high school (graduated in 1965, class had 800 students) I only knew one student who came from a single parent family and everyone of the kids on the street I lived on come from a family where the mother stayed at home even though many were college eduacated. My mom was a head nurse who stopped working when I was born. At that time, the choice that my parents made was the most common choice even if that meant that we only had one car until mom was almost 35. Pop was a doc so, even middle class folks were living with fewer material things. This is to say the causes of our falling population are complex. I agree that when a people can’t even bother to have children at replacement levels, the society is choosing a slow suicide., I think the West is making that a choice. In a way we have said to ourselves that children will block me from fully realizing my potential. This is a love of autonomy and self and a rejection of obligation.

    Wow, is there is not post after post about how hateful and hurtful this is, I am going to feel persecuted. 

    • #55
  26. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Morning Omega,

    You are suggesting that telling folks to have children because it is their duty is as effective as telling your children “eat you spinach, because it is good for you, and besides there are children starving in China”.

    You can’t think that telling them the truth about parenting would be better?  Have children so that you can learn how to deal with sleep deprivation.  Or have children so those little germ factories can bring home every new type of cold or flu so that you can update your immune system.  Or have children so that you can develop more sympathy for Uber drivers as you chauffeur your child from music lessons to sports lessons.  Or have children so that you can decide when your daughter will start her birth control tablets, or so that you can marvel that any little boy lives past 11 years old.  Or have children so that you can postpone your retirement so that you can help with college expenses.  You think this is better?

    Or maybe we could just go cynical, and hoping that  some young folks will do the opposite.  “Don’t have any kids, they just get in the way, and you will be dead before society goes down the drain, so who cares”

    • #56
  27. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Morning Omega,

    You are suggesting that telling folks to have children because it is their duty is as effective as telling your children “eat you spinach, because it is good for you, and besides there are children starving in China”.

    You can’t think that telling them the truth about parenting would be better? Have children so that you can learn how to deal with sleep deprivation. Or have children so those little germ factories can bring home every new type of cold or flu so that you can update your immune system. Or have children so that you can develop more sympathy for Uber drivers as you chauffeur your child from music lessons to sports lessons. Or have children so that you can decide when your daughter will start her birth control tablets, or so that you can marvel that any little boy lives past 11 years old. Or have children so that you can postpone your retirement so that you can help with college expenses. You think this is better?

    Or maybe we could just go cynical, and hoping that some young folks will do the opposite. “Don’t have any kids, they just get in the way, and you will be dead before society goes down the drain, so who cares”

    Have Children because they will enrich your life in ways that cannot be put into words. Children will bring you moments of transcendent Joy and touch your soul deeper than you imagined possible. They will forever be a part of you that you surrender to the world. You will have smiles and tears; laughter and terror; victory and defeat. It will be the job of the rest of your life. And you won’t trade it for anything in the wide world. 

     

    • #57
  28. colleenb Member
    colleenb
    @colleenb

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Morning Omega,

    You are suggesting that telling folks to have children because it is their duty is as effective as telling your children “eat you spinach, because it is good for you, and besides there are children starving in China”.

    You can’t think that telling them the truth about parenting would be better? Have children so that you can learn how to deal with sleep deprivation. Or have children so those little germ factories can bring home every new type of cold or flu so that you can update your immune system. Or have children so that you can develop more sympathy for Uber drivers as you chauffeur your child from music lessons to sports lessons. Or have children so that you can decide when your daughter will start her birth control tablets, or so that you can marvel that any little boy lives past 11 years old. Or have children so that you can postpone your retirement so that you can help with college expenses. You think this is better?

    Or maybe we could just go cynical, and hoping that some young folks will do the opposite. “Don’t have any kids, they just get in the way, and you will be dead before society goes down the drain, so who cares”

    Have Children because they will enrich your life in ways that cannot be put into words. Children will bring you moments of transcendent Joy and touch your soul deeper than you imagined possible. They will forever be a part of you that you surrender to the world. You will have smiles and tears; laughter and terror; victory and defeat. It will be the job of the rest of your life. And you won’t trade it for anything in the wide world.

     

    This makes me think that not having children is part of not having a faith or religious belief. Almost all the things you list are what one goes through when worshipping G-d. Lack of children leads to lack of faith which leads to lack of children. Or start with lack of faith for the last sentence and it comes out the same.

    • #58
  29. Jim Beck Inactive
    Jim Beck
    @JimBeck

    Morning Colleen’s,

    I think Boss hit on the foundational part of love that both parental love and Christianity illuminate.  Parental love and Christianity help one learn a better definition of love; that is, a love that is a love built on sacrifice and service.  When one is young, or maybe more precisely when I was young, I paired love with what was happening to me.  If someone met my desires, pleased my eyes, enabled my hopes and plans, then, of course I loved them.  If they blocked my plans, or frustrated my hopes then my loved faded.  That meant, what I really loved was myself.  Love was having my needs met.  Modern life has made this confusion even worse.  We think if we have more choices we will be happier, as if the key to happiness is having our material needs met, and when do we want our needs met, now, Amazon me, now.  We/I don’t see that this sin of self love/self adoration separates from everyone else, it isolates us. I think this is part of the problem seen in substituting pets for children.  Dogs are there to please you, to meet your needs, they are almost completely under your control.  

    We don’t have to read much of the Bible to see that having children does not always produce wiser parents with a better understanding of love.   Think of Lot offering his daughters to the sex crazed men of Sodom instead of his “guests”, or Jacob picking Joseph as a favorite.  We also see that one can sin by worshipping one’s desires to be a parent.  Sara and Abraham were more devoted to having children than following God, and  they sinned even though they were assured by God that they would have heirs.  Sara giving Hagar to Abraham, or Abram then, was worshiping one’s desires and acting to please oneself.  We can see that the problems are with our own hearts and not our status as parents.  For some folks, having children can be path to a more complete understanding of love.   And, there are times when you think that this must be what Heaven must be like.

    • #59
  30. colleenb Member
    colleenb
    @colleenb

    Jim Beck (View Comment):

    Morning Colleen’s,

    I think Boss hit on the foundational part of love that both parental love and Christianity illuminate. Parental love and Christianity help one learn a better definition of love; that is, a love that is a love built on sacrifice and service. When one is young, or maybe more precisely when I was young, I paired love with what was happening to me. If someone met my desires, pleased my eyes, enabled my hopes and plans, then, of course I loved them. If they blocked my plans, or frustrated my hopes then my loved faded. That meant, what I really loved was myself. Love was having my needs met. Modern life has made this confusion even worse. We think if we have more choices we will be happier, as if the key to happiness is having our material needs met, and when do we want our needs met, now, Amazon me, now. We/I don’t see that this sin of self love/self adoration separates from everyone else, it isolates us. I think this is part of the problem seen in substituting pets for children. Dogs are there to please you, to meet your needs, they are almost completely under your control.

    We don’t have to read much of the Bible to see that having children does not always produce wiser parents with a better understanding of love. Think of Lot offering his daughters to the sex crazed men of Sodom instead of his “guests”, or Jacob picking Joseph as a favorite. We also see that one can sin by worshipping one’s desires to be a parent. Sara and Abraham were more devoted to having children than following God, and they sinned even though they were assured by God that they would have heirs. Sara giving Hagar to Abraham, or Abram then, was worshiping one’s desires and acting to please oneself. We can see that the problems are with our own hearts and not our status as parents. For some folks, having children can be path to a more complete understanding of love. And, there are times when you think that this must be what Heaven must be like.

    Lovely comment. I know, as a parent, when I corrected my child or he had to be in a pain getting a shot, etc., I had a better idea of the love of God and the correction/growth that entails. Sacrifice is such a huge part of love. It’s not a surprise, though, that people don’t want to sacrifice if they see no (immediate?) reason to do so. Again, religion/faith aids them in understanding that.

    • #60
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