Quote of the Day: ‘Don’t Give Up the Ship!’

 

Today I would love to tell you a rich and layered tale of good ship design, poor ship design, arrogance, and more arrogance that led to death, loss, and destruction. But I am not going to tell you that rich and layered tale. It would take a book or two to tell it properly, and I have other books to write. Thus I shall keep this simple.

On the First of June in 1813, the USS Chesapeake set to sea from Boston Harbor and met the waiting HMS Shannon. It was during the War of 1812 when we were at war with the UK. HMS Shannon had a much better-trained crew, drilled in gunnery by their captain, Philip Broke (pronounced Brook). The Shannon won the duel and captured Chesapeake, which was later taken into the Royal Navy as HMS Chesapeake and a mere six years later was sold out of the service, broken up, and the timbers were used to build a mill which still stands today in Wickham, England, UK, as a gift shop and tea room.

James Lawrence, newly-appointed captain of the USS Chesapeake, was mortally wounded in the battle. As he was being carried down to the surgery in the ship, he cried out:

Tell the men to fire faster! Don’t give up the ship!

They did give up the ship.

If you do have a hankering to read a book or two on naval warfare in the age of sail, you might want to look for some of @seawriter‘s work, which you can find listed here.

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  1. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    If you’re interested in historical fiction, Patrick O’Brian wrote about the Shannon v. the Chesapeake, too.  The battle lasted 13 minutes.

    • #1
  2. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    If you’re interested in historical fiction, Patrick O’Brian wrote about the Shannon v. the Chesapeake, too. The battle lasted 13 minutes.

    Yep. I read it. #6 The Fortune of War.

    • #2
  3. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    If you’re interested in historical fiction, Patrick O’Brian wrote about the Shannon v. the Chesapeake, too. The battle lasted 13 minutes.

    Yep. I read it. #6 The Fortune of War.

    Thanks.  I was looking at my bookshelf, but couldn’t pick it out.

    • #3
  4. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    My book Constitution vs Guerriere discussed that battle. Some of the interesting points:

    1. Lawrence was far from the best captain in the US Federal Navy. He was taking command of a frigate for the first time.
    2. He had been promoted as a result of a victorious battle against an incompetent British commander, and assumed all British officers were as competent as that foe.
    3. His opponent was widely regarded as a gunnery nut by the Royal Navy, who spent too much time and effort on gunnery drill.
    4. In 1812, when the war began the North American Station was a backwater, where the Royal Navy sent less competent but well-connected officers and officers considered eccentric (such as for their obsession with gunnery) to keep them out of more critical theaters where their peculiarities might cause problems,
    5. The commanders of Guerriere and Macedonian (captured or sunk in frigate duels in 1812) were competent seamen, but really poor combat officers.
    6. Lawrence was so contemptuous of his opponent he passed up an opportunity to rake his opponent (firing his opening broadside down the length of the opposing ship to create maximum damage) choosing instead to lay alongside on the upwind side of Shannon.
    7. On the day the battle was fought Chesapeake was setting to sea with a new crew, one that never worked together.
    8. Chesapeake was a much weaker frigate than the 44-gun frigates such as Constitution and United States. It mounted 18-pound guns on its main deck as opposed to the 24-pound guns of the other 44-gun frigates.
    9. Chesapeake was rated as a 44-gun frigate based on the number of guns it was authorized to carry.
    10. The US Navy had no 38-gun frigates at that time (until it captured Macedonian) only 36-gun and 44-gun. US historians retroactively re-rated Chesapeake as a 38-gun frigate in the late 19th century to “explain” the loss.

    All of this set up Lawrence for a massive fail. The gods of battle do not always favor the heavier battery (this battle was dead even), but they always favor the better prepared. Broke (commanding Shannon) was completely prepared. Lawrence was winging it.

    • #4
  5. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    Some of the interesting points:

    Indeed. As I said, whole books could be written about the situation. The first “arrogance” I mentioned above was that of Josiah Fox, the shipbuilder, who thought he knew so much more than the original ship designer, Joshua Humphreys. You didn’t name those two, although the smaller ship as built that you did mention was due to Fox. The second “arrogance” mentioned was that of Lawrence, which you have covered well in the points above.

    • #5
  6. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    Some of the interesting points:

    Indeed. As I said, whole books could be written about the situation. The first “arrogance” I mentioned above was that of Josiah Fox, the shipbuilder, who thought he knew so much more than the original ship designer, Joshua Humphreys. You didn’t name those two, although the smaller ship as built that you did mention was due to Fox. The second “arrogance” mentioned was that of Lawrence, which you have covered well in the points above.

    I think you are being a little unfair to Fox. Based on the information he had when he designed Chesapeake, it was a reasonable assessment. The British and French both experimented with 24-pound frigates in the late 1780s and in the 1790s and found significant drawback with them. The British converted three 64-gun ships-of-the-line into 24-pound frigates (one of which Indefatigable was made famous by the Hornblower stories). 

    The French discovered they could not beat the British with their 44-gun frigates (largely because they could only arm them with 18-pound or even 12-pound main deck guns  due to structural weaknesses imposed by timber shortages). The British discovered they could beat large French frigates just fine with their 38-gun 18-pound frigates. The manpower savings in going to the 38-gun frigate was too much of an advantage.

    So by 1812 the 24-pound frigate was viewed as a dead-end, an experiment worth trying but which did not pay off.  That the War of 1812 reversed that judgement doesn’t change that naval architects and navies went by the experience gained in 20 years of warfare before that war started. Even the US Navy abandoned the 24-pound frigate until the War of 1812 revived it.

    I discussed this in my first book – American Heavy Frigates.

    • #6
  7. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    I think you are being a little unfair to Fox.

    Trust me, I’m much worse to the contentious Quaker in some of my upcoming books. 😆

    • #7
  8. She Member
    She
    @She

    Wow.  208 years ago today.  A favorite phrase on my Dad’s side of the family, none of whom were wont to do it.  Ever.  No. Matter. What.

    ***

    This is the Quote of the Day. June’s sign-up sheet is here, and the days are going fast.  Get ’em while they’re hot!

    If you’re new at this game, it’s a easy way to get your feet wet and start a conversation; if you’re an old-timer, you already know the ropes.  Either way, please sign up to speak up.

    Another ongoing project to encourage new voices is our Group Writing Project. June’s theme is “Journeys.”  If you’d like to weigh in, please sign up for Group Writing too!

     

    • #8
  9. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Lucky shot crippled the steering and took out the very capable captain.  Barring that, the Chesapeake was a match–more maneuverable, more guns.

    As for the experience factor, the novice American crew of Old Ironsides beat the Guerreire one-on-one and I think the Chesapeake could have done the same under different circumstances.

    Patrick O’Brien alludes to both battles in his marvelous series and even has Aubrey as a passenger on the Guerriere.

    The best Don’t Give of the Ship story is that of Aristide Aubert du Petit-Thouars.  He commanded the Tonnant anchored in Aboukir Bay with the French fleet when Nelson made his daring attack.  In front of the Tonnant, the French flagship the Orient was literally reduced to splinters when a British cannonball penetrated her magazine resulting in a massive fireball. Quickly surrounded, the Tonnant fought all comers.  Captain du Petit-Thouars lost an arm and both legs from cannon fire and ordered his men to stand him up in an open sand barrel (sand was for spreading over the deck so the inevitable pools of blood would be less slippery) where he continued to give orders for several minutes, one of which was to nail the flag to the mast so the colors could not be cut.  The French Navy has named several ships after him over the years.

    His men did eventually give up the ship.  It became the HMS Tonnant and was the British flagship for the Chesapeake campaign and the unsuccessful bombardment of Fort McHenry.  Francis Scott Key (an American lawyer aboard negotiating prisoner releases) was forced to remain on board the Tonnant when the shooting started and from its deck he witnessed the oversized, in-your-face American flag still waving. 

    • #9
  10. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Lucky shot crippled the steering and took out the very capable captain. Barring that, the Chesapeake was a match–more maneuverable, more guns.

    You get the luck you earn. Had Lawrence not passed on a stern rake, there would have been a lot less opportunity for a lucky shot.

    As for the experience factor, the novice American crew of Old Ironsides beat the Guerreire one-on-one and I think the Chesapeake could have done the same under different circumstances.

    Umm . . . No. Constitution‘s crew could not be described as novice. They had been in commission prior to the War of 1812, and the battle with Guerriere  was fought during Constitution‘s second (or third) cruise of the War of 1812. They were very well drilled when they fought Guerriere. Hull maneuvered repeatedly during the approach to Guerriere, to spoil his opponent’s aim. Stephen Decatur was equally prudent and capable when he fought Macedonian. By contrast, Lawrence, with a green crew, passed up any opportunities for maneuvering and simply sailed up to a pistol-shot exchange of broadsides against the best-prepared 18-pound frigate in the Royal Navy.

    In  Constitution vs Guerriere  I explored the possibility of a victory by Chesapeake. Let me quote from it:

    No frigate duel in the War of 1812 was closer – on paper – than the battle between the Chesapeake and Shannon.  The disparity in crew quality and leadership gave Shannon a decisive edge. Broke’s leadership, and a well-drilled crew that had worked together for seven years would have made the Shannon a challenge for even a Constitution-class frigate.  That is not to say Chesapeakes defeat was inevitable.  Suppose Stephen Decatur had commanded Chesapeake on that fatal May day. A different result would likely have occurred.

    It is likely that the battle would not have taken place.  Experienced leaders – like Hull, Decatur, and Rodgers – respected their opponents.  Decatur would likely not have challenged any Royal Navy warship until his crew was trained to his satisfaction.  He would avoided combat, and spent the next two weeks drilling his crew.

    Had he been unable to avoid combat, Decatur would have fought a smarter battle than Lawrence.  Given the opportunity to open the battle with a stern rake, Lawrence instead opted for to trade broadsides with Shannon, yardarm to yardarm.  Decatur would have seized the moment.  The effect of a well-aimed opening broadside entering the unprotected stern, and sweeping the length of the gun decks could disorganize and demoralize even an elite crew.

    Even with this, an American victory would be not guaranteed.  The superior gunnery and discipline of Shannon might still have given Broke victory.  Even a Decatur could not have welded Chesapeake’s crew into a unified fighting force in two week’s time.

    For the rest, read the book.

    • #10
  11. cqness Inactive
    cqness
    @cqness

    Later in that same year of 1813 Oliver Hazard Perry had a flag made with Lawrence’s famous words sewn onto it.  The flag was raised on his flagship at the start the Battle of Lake Erie which was a famous victory for the U.S. Navy and led to Perry’s famous words “We have met the enemy and he is ours” (and of course we know the Pogo cartoon modification “We have met the enemy and he is us”) 

    Here is an interesting article about Perry’s “Don’t Give Up The Ship” flag in the battle and after.  It’s not clear if the flag was raised again when Perry was forced to change flagships though the consensus is it was.  I find fascinating the story of the flag’s several restorations and current display at the U.S. Naval Academy.  It’s not even clear that the flag was originally blue as was shown in period portraits done of Perry.

    http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/portal/communities/pa-heritage/flag-bears-witness-dont-give-up-the-ship.html

    • #11
  12. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    cqness (View Comment):
    Later in that same year of 1813 Oliver Hazard Perry had a flag made with Lawrence’s famous words sewn onto it.  The flag was raised on his flagship at the start the Battle of Lake Erie which was a famous victory for the U.S. Navy and led to Perry’s famous words “We have met the enemy and he is ours” (and of course we know the Pogo cartoon modification “We have met the enemy and he is us”) 

    For those interested, I wrote about that battle, too.

    • #12
  13. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    “We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and one sloop.” The entire Royal Navy Lake Erie squadron. Determination, courage, luck, and a boneheaded opponent.

    • #13
  14. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Percival (View Comment):
    . . .and a boneheaded opponent.

    It’s always a plus, but one just can’t depend upon it.

    • #14
  15. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Percival (View Comment):

    “We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and one sloop.” The entire Royal Navy Lake Erie squadron. Determination, courage, luck, and a boneheaded opponent.

    I am going to dispute that boneheaded opponent part. Barclay played his cards about as well as he could. He had more ships, but had resource and personnel problems even worse than that of Perry. Barclay even lacked flintlocks for all of his cannon. Some had to be fired using slow match or even by flashing pistols (holding the hammer part of a flintlock pistol over the touchhole and pulling the trigger to create sparks).  Both men were at the very end of a long and tenuous supply chain, but Perry got what he needed, while Barclay did not.

    As it was Barclay almost won. Against a foe less indomitable than Perry he would have. 

    • #15
  16. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):
    . . .and a boneheaded opponent.

    It’s always a plus, but one just can’t depend upon it.

    Perry had a disadvantage too. His second-in-command was either a traitor or a cowardly twerp. Maybe both.

    • #16
  17. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Percival (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):
    . . .and a boneheaded opponent.

    It’s always a plus, but one just can’t depend upon it.

    Perry had a disadvantage too. His second-in-command was either a traitor or a cowardly twerp. Maybe both.

    Neither, as far as I can tell. Just not as competent as Perry. My take on it from my book:

    Niagara’s behavior ultimately led to a court of inquiry over Jesse Elliott’s conduct, and created a poisonous controversy which divided the United States Navy for decades after the battle. Elliot insisted he had to maintain the line of battle. His detractors claimed he hung back due to cowardice or – perhaps worse – in hopes Perry would be killed so Elliot could claim credit for victory.

    The reason for Elliot’s behavior may have been more prosaic. He may have lacked the ability to sail around Caledonia. He was new to his command, having taken charge a bare month earlier. His crew was raw. Passing Caledonia on its unengaged side required tacking Niagara. In the light airs then present the attempt required a skilled crew and captain. It risked having the ship end up “in irons” – trapped halfway through the maneuver, unable to complete it or fall back, and out of the battle.  Sailing around the engaged side would have blocked Caledonia fire temporarily. Elliot, brave but unimaginative, apparently could find no solution other than play follow-my-leader with Caledonia.

     

    • #17
  18. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    “We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and one sloop.” The entire Royal Navy Lake Erie squadron. Determination, courage, luck, and a boneheaded opponent.

    I am going to dispute that boneheaded opponent part. Barclay played his cards about as well as he could. He had more ships, but had resource and personnel problems even worse than that of Perry. Barclay even lacked flintlocks for all of his cannon. Some had to be fired using slow match or even by flashing pistols (holding the hammer part of a flintlock pistol over the touchhole and pulling the trigger to create sparks). Both men were at the very end of a long and tenuous supply chain, but Perry got what he needed, while Barclay did not.

    As it was Barclay almost won. Against a foe less indomitable than Perry he would have.

    The battle only took place because Barclay lifted his blockade. Nobody seems to know why, unless it was in order to offer battle. He didn’t need to do that. He had Perry bottled up.

    • #18
  19. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Percival (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    “We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and one sloop.” The entire Royal Navy Lake Erie squadron. Determination, courage, luck, and a boneheaded opponent.

    I am going to dispute that boneheaded opponent part. Barclay played his cards about as well as he could. He had more ships, but had resource and personnel problems even worse than that of Perry. Barclay even lacked flintlocks for all of his cannon. Some had to be fired using slow match or even by flashing pistols (holding the hammer part of a flintlock pistol over the touchhole and pulling the trigger to create sparks). Both men were at the very end of a long and tenuous supply chain, but Perry got what he needed, while Barclay did not.

    As it was Barclay almost won. Against a foe less indomitable than Perry he would have.

    The battle only took place because Barclay lifted his blockade. Nobody seems to know why, unless it was in order to offer battle. He didn’t need to do that. He had Perry bottled up.

    He was out of food. He returned to Amherstburg for more. He gambled he could get back before Niagara and Lawrence were across the bar and lost the gamble. Moreover, Perry bluffed Barclay into believing the US ships were ready for a fight.

    • #19
  20. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    “We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and one sloop.” The entire Royal Navy Lake Erie squadron. Determination, courage, luck, and a boneheaded opponent.

    I am going to dispute that boneheaded opponent part. Barclay played his cards about as well as he could. He had more ships, but had resource and personnel problems even worse than that of Perry. Barclay even lacked flintlocks for all of his cannon. Some had to be fired using slow match or even by flashing pistols (holding the hammer part of a flintlock pistol over the touchhole and pulling the trigger to create sparks). Both men were at the very end of a long and tenuous supply chain, but Perry got what he needed, while Barclay did not.

    As it was Barclay almost won. Against a foe less indomitable than Perry he would have.

    The battle only took place because Barclay lifted his blockade. Nobody seems to know why, unless it was in order to offer battle. He didn’t need to do that. He had Perry bottled up.

    He was out of food. He returned to Amherstburg for more. He gambled he could get back before Niagara and Lawrence were across the bar and lost the gamble. Moreover, Perry bluffed Barclay into believing the US ships were ready for a fight.

    But then you send one guy back for food.

    I never heard that they were short of rations before, but you wrote a book and I read one once. So there’s that.

    • #20
  21. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Percival (View Comment):
    But then you send one guy back for food.

    I think you are underestimating the primitiveness of the British facilities on the lakes as well as the limitations Barclay had in the number of ships. He could not have sent one of his smaller schooners back for food. They lacked the space to carry all the food required for his flotilla and the manpower to load the food quickly once at Amherstburg. Anyone who could serve as a longshoreman was aboard Barclay’s ships. If he sent enough ships back to carry food for the remaining vessels he effectively divided his command in the face of a superior enemy. Not recommended. Additionally he maintained his station for seven weeks, enough to go through the rations in ships which were not particularly voluminous. He made the least bad choice of a number of really bad choices available. 

    • #21
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