Know Your Enemy

 

Conservatives of America!  Meet your enemy, John Dewey, and find out what he’s all about.

That’s just a short video from the Great Texts in Philosophy playlist on my YouTube channel, and the first of a series now airing on the The Philosophers in Their Own Words playlist.

Truth be told, I don’t actually think Dewey is the enemy. I think he’s an interesting philosopher who’s not always right.  But I enjoy reading him when I can, and I agree with him on some things. You can keep an eye out in this series for reasons why your so-called enemy is not exactly a caricature of an arch-leftist–maybe even an ally from time to time. Here are some pointers on what he says:

  • Education is how a society renews its life from one generation to the next. Education involves initiating the young’uns in the life of their society. In a democratic society, that means (among other things) equal participation in education.
  • Education should involve a good bit of scientific training. But it should also involve some old ideas and old books as introductions to and training in the moral and intellectual life of the society’s past.
  • Education should be active–not one where students passively absorb information, but one where young humans learn to use and channel their energy into creative and useful action.  A good education doesn’t need Ritalin.  (I think the failure of schools in the USA these days to harness the interests and energies of students would leave Dewey appalled and deeply upset.)

Here’s the first video from the Own Words playlist:

And here’s the second one: The video isn’t loading properly, but here’s the URL.

Expect one more each Monday for the next four weeks.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Percival (View Comment):

    We know now that not everyone has the same learning style. Some people do better with individual study than they do with groups. His socially oriented schools will allow such people to fall through the cracks.

    The socially oriented schools we do have do. I’m not convinced they got that from Dewey, instead of by ignoring one facet of a multifaceted philosophy.

    But I’d have to review chapter 22 carefully if I wanted to be sure one way or the other. Also his criticism of Plato.

    • #31
  2. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    CACrabtree (View Comment):

    I suppose that’s a valid take on Dewey but I never viewed him as the true “enemy”.  After Sputnik 1, this country went on a crash program of education (the National Defense Education Act among other things) which resulted in a pretty decent system of education.

    Then, after the 60s, the education “establishment” proceeded to tear that system down, brick by brick.  I suppose they might have used Dewey as their philosophical beacon but the destruction of our education system wasn’t inevitable.

    I’ve always viewed the Sputnik response as part of the destructive process, in part because it nationalized our educational system. It wasn’t without its good points, but the overall effect, both short- and long- term, was destructive. 

    • #32
  3. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Over at the first video, a YouTuber said this:

    YouTube guy:

    “Dewey rejects the idea of any dichotomy of conservative vs. progressive.” Rejection of contemporary politics, then? I’d love to hear more of his perspectives on this.

    I typed up this reply:

    Me:

    Dewey’s way of thinking about life is cyclical but also forward-looking, and what I mean is this:

    He thinks that we take what we’ve gotten through past experience and we apply it in future experience, and then that application itself becomes part of our experience, which we can then apply again in the future. We move from experience to experience through cycles of taking-from-the-past and acting-for-the-future.

    In taking from the past, we always have something to preserve.

    In acting for the future, we always have to try something new–either some correction of past lessons, or at least some new application of past wisdom.

    This, he thinks, is how science works. This is also how knowledge in general works. This is also how biological life works from one generation to the next, and even from one day to the next.

    This is also how society continues from one generation to another. And it’s all a part of . . . EXPERIENCE.

    The conservatives are always on to something because they’re focused on taking-from-the-past. But the progressives are always on to something because they’re focusing on that acting-for-the-future. And we need both.

    But then I added:

    Me:

    I had no idea I was going to type all of that! It’s just what happens when I sit down and try to think in Dewey. Hopefully there’s enough Dewey in my head that I got it right. I think you should probably assume it’s correct, but only until you learn better.

    One way to learn better is to look for an actual Dewey scholar somewhere. (Maybe IEP.UTM.edu or Plato.Stanford.edu.) Another way is to read Dewey yourself. That’s usually the better option–if you have time!

    • #33
  4. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Also his criticism of Plato.

    Ah. Here we are. I thought that would be this week.

    • #34
  5. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Also his criticism of Plato.

    Ah. Here we are. I thought that would be this week.

    But what if I don’t want to do the job I’m best suited for. Congress doesn’t do the job of Congress, journalists don’t do the job of journalism.  Which is not to say that congressmen are suited to be congressmen, or that journalists are suited to be journalists. But why should I have to be constrained in what I do. Especially, why should I stick to work that others think I’m suited for and are willing to pay me to do? 

    Yes, that’s a sarcastic commentary on things I’ve heard people say in the news, without ever being challenged on them.

    Now back to finish watching the video.

    • #35
  6. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Percival (View Comment):

    I just watched the first two, and it all came flooding back.

    Not the part about disliking Dewey. That part I remembered. It was the why that I forgot. Dewey keeps shooting at aphorism and hitting cliché. When he’s right, he isn’t profound, and when he’s profound, he isn’t right.

    Anybody who designs and implements communications systems will tell you: you cannot transmit everything. If you don’t prioritize, you’ll fail to let the receiver know what they need to know. “Everything” takes more bandwidth than you have. Also, you don’t have to explain to people how to feel, but you had better let them know how to think. Critical thinking is not being taught, neither the critical part nor the thinking part. But the feeling? That they have down. Feeling and sharing those feelings. I’d “thank them for sharing,” except that would give them encouragement to continue doing so, and I’d really rather they would stop.

    “Word problems are too hard.”

    “Suck it up, Buttercup. Life is a word problem.”

    Except for those all important moments when Life is a math problem.

    But the Left feels that math is too hard also. As well as being “too white guy.” (Even though the Egyptians and Persians contributed greatly to the foundations of math.)

     

    • #36
  7. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    How timely. I’m working (slowly) through a book arguing that Dewey left Progressives without a solid philosophical basis. They can’t get at the improvement of society except through the use of expert individuals, because they are metaphysical nominalists. If Dewey had followed Peirce’s pragmatism with Peirce’s realist position, instead of James’, it would allow a place in his political theory for communities as communities, and not as collections of individuals.

    My interest is less in political theory than in what nominalism vs realism tells me about how (or if) a discipline of macroeconomics can be built from a microeconomic base.

    Can you explain nominalism? (Like how you’d define it, for instance.)

    I doubt I have heard the term before.

    • #37
  8. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    How timely. I’m working (slowly) through a book arguing that Dewey left Progressives without a solid philosophical basis. They can’t get at the improvement of society except through the use of expert individuals, because they are metaphysical nominalists. If Dewey had followed Peirce’s pragmatism with Peirce’s realist position, instead of James’, it would allow a place in his political theory for communities as communities, and not as collections of individuals.

    My interest is less in political theory than in what nominalism vs realism tells me about how (or if) a discipline of macroeconomics can be built from a microeconomic base.

    Can you explain nominalism? (Like how you’d define it, for instance.)

    I doubt I have heard the term before.

    In the usual sense in philosophy (or at least a usual sense) it means the idea that universals don’t exist.

    And what are universals?  Universals are shared qualities or shared properties.  E.g., a book on my shelf is red.  My pen is red.  They both have redness.  Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places.  (And it’s not made of matter.)

    • #38
  9. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    How timely. I’m working (slowly) through a book arguing that Dewey left Progressives without a solid philosophical basis. They can’t get at the improvement of society except through the use of expert individuals, because they are metaphysical nominalists. If Dewey had followed Peirce’s pragmatism with Peirce’s realist position, instead of James’, it would allow a place in his political theory for communities as communities, and not as collections of individuals.

    My interest is less in political theory than in what nominalism vs realism tells me about how (or if) a discipline of macroeconomics can be built from a microeconomic base.

    Can you explain nominalism? (Like how you’d define it, for instance.)

    I doubt I have heard the term before.

    In the usual sense in philosophy (or at least a usual sense) it means the idea that universals don’t exist.

    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Yes. For my purposes, nominalism would tell me that an economy (or a market) is made up entirely of individual agents. I think of it as Robinson Crusoe and Friday trading fish and coconuts expanded to very large numbers of individuals who interact the same way that Crusoe and Friday interact. But, is that all an economy is? If I hold a realist position, then a market, an economy, a community, has some existence that makes it different than just the sum of its individual members. Perhaps then a market takes on more than just the narrow self-interest of the individual agents making trades?

    • #39
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    Yes. For my purposes, nominalism would tell me that an economy (or a market) is made up entirely of individual agents. I think of it as Robinson Crusoe and Friday trading fish and coconuts expanded to very large numbers of individuals who interact the same way that Crusoe and Friday interact. But, is that all an economy is? If I hold a realist position, then a market, an economy, a community, has some existence that makes it different than just the sum of its individual members. Perhaps then a market takes on more than just the narrow self-interest of the individual agents making trades?

    You know, I think I might sooner connect that to reductionism in metaphysics than to universals.  I’m sure there are connections, but I do think of those as separate topics in metaphysics.

    (You know, this comment probably doesn’t matter.)

    • #40
  11. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Over at the first video, a YouTuber said this:

    YouTube guy:

    “Dewey rejects the idea of any dichotomy of conservative vs. progressive.” Rejection of contemporary politics, then? I’d love to hear more of his perspectives on this.

    I typed up this reply:

    Me:

    Dewey’s way of thinking about life is cyclical but also forward-looking, and what I mean is this:

    He thinks that we take what we’ve gotten through past experience and we apply it in future experience, and then that application itself becomes part of our experience, which we can then apply again in the future. We move from experience to experience through cycles of taking-from-the-past and acting-for-the-future.

    In taking from the past, we always have something to preserve.

    In acting for the future, we always have to try something new–either some correction of past lessons, or at least some new application of past wisdom.

    This, he thinks, is how science works. This is also how knowledge in general works. This is also how biological life works from one generation to the next, and even from one day to the next.

    This is also how society continues from one generation to another. And it’s all a part of . . . EXPERIENCE.

    The conservatives are always on to something because they’re focused on taking-from-the-past. But the progressives are always on to something because they’re focusing on that acting-for-the-future. And we need both.

    But then I added:

    Me:

    I had no idea I was going to type all of that! It’s just what happens when I sit down and try to think in Dewey. Hopefully there’s enough Dewey in my head that I got it right. I think you should probably assume it’s correct, but only until you learn better.

    One way to learn better is to look for an actual Dewey scholar somewhere. (Maybe IEP.UTM.edu or Plato.Stanford.edu.) Another way is to read Dewey yourself. That’s usually the better option–if you have time!

    I finally found the quote I was looking for. 

    “When James popularized pragmatism, he stamped it with the nominalism from which even Dewey failed fully to escape, the nominalism that therefore came to dominate twentieth-century pragmatic liberalism.

         As for Dewey, not philosophy alone, but also political considerations tilted him toward nominalism, for he mistakenly assumed that the metaphysical realism–a commitment to the reality of general classes and principles–was inevitably conservative. His assumption was that general principles can only be fixed principles, such as, say laissez-faire economic theories, which will usually reflect prevailing social mores and will therefore usually support the status quo.” [James Hoopes, Community Denied, p. 50.]

    In Peirce’s realism, general ideas–like everything else in Peirce–evolve toward a final fixed state that is truth.  

    • #41
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    I finally found the quote I was looking for. 

    “When James popularized pragmatism, he stamped it with the nominalism from which even Dewey failed fully to escape, the nominalism that therefore came to dominate twentieth-century pragmatic liberalism.

         As for Dewey, not philosophy alone, but also political considerations tilted him toward nominalism, for he mistakenly assumed that the metaphysical realism–a commitment to the reality of general classes and principles–was inevitably conservative. His assumption was that general principles can only be fixed principles, such as, say laissez-faire economic theories, which will usually reflect prevailing social mores and will therefore usually support the status quo.” [James Hoopes, Community Denied, p. 50.]

    In Peirce’s realism, general ideas–like everything else in Peirce–evolve toward a final fixed state that is truth.  

    Ah!

    Interesting.

    I’m not sure if this is a confusion over “general”–does it mean wholes and groups rather than parts and members, or does it mean universal properties?

    Maybe it can mean both–i.e., what I think of as “reductionism” overlaps with what I think of as “nominalism.”

    Anyway, . . . that looks like a very promising critique of Dewey you got that.

    • #42
  13. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    Yes. For my purposes, nominalism would tell me that an economy (or a market) is made up entirely of individual agents. I think of it as Robinson Crusoe and Friday trading fish and coconuts expanded to very large numbers of individuals who interact the same way that Crusoe and Friday interact. But, is that all an economy is? If I hold a realist position, then a market, an economy, a community, has some existence that makes it different than just the sum of its individual members. Perhaps then a market takes on more than just the narrow self-interest of the individual agents making trades?

    You know, I think I might sooner connect that to reductionism in metaphysics than to universals. I’m sure there are connections, but I do think of those as separate topics in metaphysics.

    (You know, this comment probably doesn’t matter.)

    I think Walker Percy said something about it being a miracle that any two people can communicate at all. To say nothing about agreeing on terminology.  

    • #43
  14. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    I think Walker Percy said something about it being a miracle that any two people can communicate at all. To say nothing about agreeing on terminology.  

    Amen.

    • #44
  15. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    And what are universals?  Universals are shared qualities or shared properties.  E.g., a book on my shelf is red.  My pen is red.  They both have redness.  Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places.  (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Just out of curiosity, Augie, do mind-independent universals “exist”?  I should hope you will say “no,” but if you say “yes” then my question would be – what do you mean by the word “exist”?

    • #45
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Larry3435 (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Just out of curiosity, Augie, do mind-independent universals “exist”? I should hope you will say “no,” but if you say “yes” then my question would be – what do you mean by the word “exist”?

    By “exist” I mean “exist.”

    Mind-independent universals exist.

    They’ve always been the second-best reason to reject materialism.

    • #46
  17. Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler Member
    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler
    @Muleskinner

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Larry3435 (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Just out of curiosity, Augie, do mind-independent universals “exist”? I should hope you will say “no,” but if you say “yes” then my question would be – what do you mean by the word “exist”?

    By “exist” I mean “exist.”

    And of course mind-independent universals exist.

    They’ve always been the second-best reason to reject materialism.

    Peirce says nothing is “mind-independent” because everything is mind. “…what we call matter is not completely dead, but is merely mind hidebound with habits.” —CS Peirce 

    “Don’t think that Peirce is saying that that wall is imaginary, if you put your head down and run as hard as you can into that wall, you will find out that it is real. Just as Peirce says.” —my Philosophy professor 

    so what is the first-best reason?

    • #47
  18. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Muleskinner, Weasel Wrangler (View Comment):

    so what is the first-best reason?

    Consciousness.

    • #48
  19. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    And what are universals?  Universals are shared qualities or shared properties.  E.g., a book on my shelf is red.  My pen is red.  They both have redness.  Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places.  (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Ok, that one’s too egregious to ignore any longer. I assert that qualia are not real. That’s just as valid as your assertion that they are. Over to you.

    • #49
  20. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    By “exist” I mean “exist.”

    Well, that certainly is nice and circular.  Also meaningless.  Care to elaborate?

    Mind-independent universals exist.

    Since your version of “exist” remains undefined, I suppose it would be equally true to say they exist, or they do not exist.  I’m tempted to ask for an example, but you know, it’s you, so there would be no point.  You previously gave the example of red or redness.  Does vermillion fall within the “universal” of red?  Ruby?  Carmine?  Cerise?  Can that be determined in any way that is mind-independent?

    • #50
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Ok, that one’s too egregious to ignore any longer. I assert that qualia are not real. That’s just as valid as your assertion that they are. Over to you.

    My assertion, however, that I am indeed perceiving red just now is more true than your assertion that I am not.

    But do you understand that I was talking about universals in that bit you quoted?  If “red” makes you think of qualia, just switch it out for “tendency to reflect light at such-and-such-a-wavelength” or even “weighing more than a quarter-ounce.”

    • #51
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Larry3435 (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    By “exist” I mean “exist.”

    Well, that certainly is nice and circular. Also meaningless. Care to elaborate?

    No, but here’s an online dictionary if you need it.

    Mind-independent universals exist.

    Since your version of “exist” remains undefined, I suppose it would be equally true to say they exist, or they do not exist. I’m tempted to ask for an example, but you know, it’s you, so there would be no point. You previously gave the example of red or redness. Does vermillion fall within the “universal” of red? Ruby? Carmine? Cerise? Can that be determined in any way that is mind-independent?

    Start with something simpler that doesn’t tempt us to switch from the topic of universals to the topic of qualia.

    Does your left shoe have the property of weighing more than an ounce?

    • #52
  23. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    Ok, that one’s too egregious to ignore any longer. I assert that qualia are not real. That’s just as valid as your assertion that they are. Over to you.

    My assertion, however, that I am indeed perceiving red just now is more true than your assertion that I am not.

    But do you understand that I was talking about universals in that bit you quoted? If “red” makes you think of qualia, just switch it out for “tendency to reflect light at such-and-such-a-wavelength” or even “weighing more than a quarter-ounce.”

    Be careful. The subtle art of philosophy is to substitute the map for the territory; it’s the trap. If you want to say “red” means some specific range of wavelengths, I’m all for that. But writ larger, that identification of a perception with a repeatable measurement will rule out many things you might want to argue for.

    • #53
  24. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Start with something simpler that doesn’t tempt us to switch from the topic of universals to the topic of qualia.

    You started that when you chose a quality (qualium?) as an example of a universal.

    • #54
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Start with something simpler that doesn’t tempt us to switch from the topic of universals to the topic of qualia.

    You started that when you chose a quality (qualium?) as an example of a universal.

    A color is the easiest example of a property.  Usually, it doesn’t cause a problem.  If it does, you solve the problem by replacing “red” with “tendency to reflect light in a certain range of wavelengths” or something.

    And I didn’t choose a qualia as an example of a universal. I chose a color, and you assumed I meant a qualia.

    • #55
  26. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Barfly (View Comment):

    If you want to say “red” means some specific range of wavelengths, I’m all for that. But writ larger, that identification of a perception with a repeatable measurement will rule out many things you might want to argue for.

    I’m not identifying a perception with a repeatable measurement.  That’s silly.  A perception is of a thing that can be repeatedly measured, but that’s not the same thing.

    • #56
  27. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    A color is the easiest example of a property.  Usually, it doesn’t cause a problem.  If it does, you solve the problem by replacing “red” with “tendency to reflect light in a certain range of wavelengths” or something.

    Ok, good. That’s real, the property of reflecting some specific light.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    And what are universals?  Universals are shared qualities or shared properties.  E.g., a book on my shelf is red.  My pen is red.  They both have redness.  Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places.  (And it’s not made of matter.)

    But it is made of matter. The light is energy, the reflector is matter, all of it is material. I think you’re trying to have it both ways.

    • #57
  28. Barfly Member
    Barfly
    @Barfly

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    If you want to say “red” means some specific range of wavelengths, I’m all for that. But writ larger, that identification of a perception with a repeatable measurement will rule out many things you might want to argue for.

    I’m not identifying a perception with a repeatable measurement. That’s silly. A perception is of a thing that can be repeatedly measured, but that’s not the same thing.

    Gaslighting. You said:

    If “red” makes you think of qualia, just switch it out for “tendency to reflect light at such-and-such-a-wavelength” or even “weighing more than a quarter-ounce.”

    • #58
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    A color is the easiest example of a property. Usually, it doesn’t cause a problem. If it does, you solve the problem by replacing “red” with “tendency to reflect light in a certain range of wavelengths” or something.

    Ok, good. That’s real, the property of reflecting some specific light.

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    And what are universals? Universals are shared qualities or shared properties. E.g., a book on my shelf is red. My pen is red. They both have redness. Redness is a property shared by two different objects; it’s a real thing existing in two different places. (And it’s not made of matter.)

    But it is made of matter. The light is energy, the reflector is matter, all of it is material. I think you’re trying to have it both ways.

    The light, the reflector–sure, you can call that material.

    But I wasn’t talking about them.  I was talking about the properties.  The property is also real.

    • #59
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    If you want to say “red” means some specific range of wavelengths, I’m all for that. But writ larger, that identification of a perception with a repeatable measurement will rule out many things you might want to argue for.

    I’m not identifying a perception with a repeatable measurement. That’s silly. A perception is of a thing that can be repeatedly measured, but that’s not the same thing.

    Gaslighting. You said:

    If “red” makes you think of qualia, just switch it out for “tendency to reflect light at such-and-such-a-wavelength” or even “weighing more than a quarter-ounce.”

    I never gaslight.

    Yes, I said that.

    That doesn’t identity a perception with a repeatable measurement.  Where are you getting the idea that it does?

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