Failure to Communicate

 

In regards the Ma’Khia Bryant shooting, once the body camera video was produced there didn’t seem to be much to talk about as far as the incident itself.  A police officer showed up for a call and within less than ten seconds had to shoot an aggressor with a knife.  But I was wrong; apparently, there is a very large cohort of Americans who honestly believe that the officer was wrong to take the actions that seem obviously necessary to the rest of us.  I read this morning about an encounter with a radio host and a guest that was sort of enlightening, but in reality disturbing. After the quotes I’ll tell you why:

“DJ Envy and Charlamagne Tha God had argued over Ma’Khia’s case. “Every case is different, and in this case, if I pull up to a scene and see a girl chasing another girl [and] about to stab a girl, my job as a police officer is to make sure that girl doesn’t get killed,” Envy said at the time. “And the law allows me to stop that killing or that stabbing by any means necessary. That’s what the law allows me to do, on both sides.”

On a later broadcast: “On Monday, April 28, Dr. Umar delivered a passionate statement regarding the case and condemned officer Reardon’s deadly use of force. “I work in schools, Charlamagne,” Dr. Umar explained. “I have seen lunchroom aides with no police training. No bulletproof vest, no knife-proof vest, no gun in the pocket. I have seen elderly Black women and elderly Black men take knives and other weapons out of the hands of students during lunchroom riots. You mean to tell me … a trained, armed police, with a bulletproof vest can’t get the knife outta the hand of a 16-year-old?”

Here is the thing:  I have literally no point of reference for a discussion with someone who thinks students possessing “knives and other weapons” during “lunchroom riots” is an occurrence anything short of catastrophic.  There appear to be millions of Americans who aren’t outright shocked at a 16-year-old girl attacking other people with a knife while making deadly threats.  I’ve seen the interview with the neighbor and the street looks like a fairly typical suburban neighborhood, but the people involved in the dispute seem to be anything but typical.  If you watch the body cam video you see what appears to be an adult male kicking one of the women to the ground and then again when she is down.  He immediately starts yelling at the officer after the shots are fired.

I just don’t get it.  I don’t know if I could have any sort of conversation with people that do this or defend it. It’s a different America than the one I live in.  What is going on?

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  1. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Joker (View Comment):
    In Floyd’s case there was something about holding a gun to the belly of a pregnant woman in Texas after he broke into her house.

    Do you have Floyd, accused of kiting a bad $20 bill, confused with another person?

    This was in Floyd’s criminal history.

    • #61
  2. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    If I was king of the cops here’s what I would do:
    1) establish national standards on use of force
    2) establish national standards on care of detained persons
    3) establish national standards on courtesy and service standards
    4) train the crap out of cops
    5) establish something like the NTSB, to study incidents and correct standards annually
    6) invest billions in new technology (we can do better than clubs and guns)
    7) purge the bad apples. Chick-fil-a does not tolerate unfriendly workers
    8) run a PR campaign. pay people in Hollywood to write scripts that show cops being friendly and respectful

     

    I think there’s too much variation in local cultures to make national standards that are workable. I often recall the police chief of the upstate New York suburb (40,000 people, median household income well above the regional average, heavy concentration of “professionals,” especially engineers) in which I then lived talking with our church mens group about how different policing was as compared to the city of which our town was a suburb (population 250,000, extremely high rate of poverty and single parenthood, very low rates of employment, lots of gangs, especially of two often warring dominant ethnic groups). The local suburban police chief said that an officer who had worked more than a couple of years in the city would be quite unhelpful in the suburb, as during his work in the city he would have developed an attitude toward the people with whom he interacted that would be completely inappropriate for an interaction with a resident of our suburban town. Interactions between a police officer and a resident were completely different in our suburb than such an interaction would be in the city.

    The left denies this too, of course.

    Um. 

    OK firstly, I agree that policing should be local, and styles of interaction will vary, and that we should not be surprised to find that urban police are less warm and fuzzy than suburban police, who, in turn are less all-smiles than rural police. 

    Because of their population distribution, a black person person can reasonably conclude that the different treatment is about race, rather than class or location. 

    • #62
  3. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Joker (View Comment):

    The solution is to have only minority officers deal with minority police emergencies. Our surprise at regular girl knife fights in the cafeteria means that whites can’t process a crime scene to minority satisfaction / standards.

    The feeling of ‘they’re out to kill us’ among minority populations switches very easily between ‘the cops’ and ‘whites’. That’s why we have new phrases like ‘white adjacent’, and why ‘Uncle Tom’ gets a resurgence. 

    • #63
  4. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Dbroussa (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):
    Hospitals kill 250,000 people a year

    That’s an absurd number.

    Regardless of how you quantify a “hospital killing someone,” that’s not close. That would be more than 10% of our deaths in this country.

    I have seen cases where the care received by the patient in the hospital could have been better, and I’ve seen cases where it turned out to even be harmful. Those cases are rare, but they do happen.

    But a quarter of a million people a year?

    That’s absurd.

    Incidentally, I’m not criticizing you, Don. I’ve seen that number at anywhere between 2,500 deaths per year to over a million. You picked one. Ok, fine.

    And I don’t pretend to know the real number. It depends on how you define “kill,” I suppose. But it’s not 250k.

    We withdraw drugs from the market that kill only 2 or 3 people. Banned by the FDA. That’s it.

    We would never tolerate a system of concentrations camps like that.

    Funny you mention that…

    A quick internet search reveals…

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

    https://patch.com/california/san-diego/10-medical-malpractice-statistics-you-should-know

    https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

    There’s much more, if you keep searching.

    The fact that it makes no sense becomes less relevant if you get enough hits on Google.

    Again, there’s just no way that 10% of the deaths in this country are from medical mistakes.

    I’ve been involved in a couple deaths that might reasonably be attributed to medical mistakes. I was not the doctor in charge, but I was familiar with the case. A couple of cases. I’ve been practicing for 25 years. I could recite the whole case to you. It was memorable, unfortunately.

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    Obesity can be caused by eating badly, not just by eating too much. But it would probably be a good idea if every young person in school received a copy of the excellent book “How To Lie With Statistics.”

     

    Or we could teach them statistics.

    I tell everyone that it is impossible to lie to someone using statistics. If that person understands statistics.

    Yes, but there are certain groups who are just innately inferior and can’t really ever understand statistics. I think we all know who I’m talking about here; journalists. 

    • #64
  5. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Dbroussa (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):
    Hospitals kill 250,000 people a year

    That’s an absurd number.

    Regardless of how you quantify a “hospital killing someone,” that’s not close. That would be more than 10% of our deaths in this country.

    I have seen cases where the care received by the patient in the hospital could have been better, and I’ve seen cases where it turned out to even be harmful. Those cases are rare, but they do happen.

    But a quarter of a million people a year?

    That’s absurd.

    Incidentally, I’m not criticizing you, Don. I’ve seen that number at anywhere between 2,500 deaths per year to over a million. You picked one. Ok, fine.

    And I don’t pretend to know the real number. It depends on how you define “kill,” I suppose. But it’s not 250k.

    We withdraw drugs from the market that kill only 2 or 3 people. Banned by the FDA. That’s it.

    We would never tolerate a system of concentrations camps like that.

    Funny you mention that…

    A quick internet search reveals…

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

    https://patch.com/california/san-diego/10-medical-malpractice-statistics-you-should-know

    https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

    There’s much more, if you keep searching.

    The fact that it makes no sense becomes less relevant if you get enough hits on Google.

    Again, there’s just no way that 10% of the deaths in this country are from medical mistakes.

    I’ve been involved in a couple deaths that might reasonably be attributed to medical mistakes. I was not the doctor in charge, but I was familiar with the case. A couple of cases. I’ve been practicing for 25 years. I could recite the whole case to you. It was memorable, unfortunately.

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    These two statistics you mention are particularly annoying in their dishonesty. 

    • #65
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    TBA (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    If I was king of the cops here’s what I would do:
    1) establish national standards on use of force
    2) establish national standards on care of detained persons
    3) establish national standards on courtesy and service standards
    4) train the crap out of cops
    5) establish something like the NTSB, to study incidents and correct standards annually
    6) invest billions in new technology (we can do better than clubs and guns)
    7) purge the bad apples. Chick-fil-a does not tolerate unfriendly workers
    8) run a PR campaign. pay people in Hollywood to write scripts that show cops being friendly and respectful

     

    I think there’s too much variation in local cultures to make national standards that are workable. I often recall the police chief of the upstate New York suburb (40,000 people, median household income well above the regional average, heavy concentration of “professionals,” especially engineers) in which I then lived talking with our church mens group about how different policing was as compared to the city of which our town was a suburb (population 250,000, extremely high rate of poverty and single parenthood, very low rates of employment, lots of gangs, especially of two often warring dominant ethnic groups). The local suburban police chief said that an officer who had worked more than a couple of years in the city would be quite unhelpful in the suburb, as during his work in the city he would have developed an attitude toward the people with whom he interacted that would be completely inappropriate for an interaction with a resident of our suburban town. Interactions between a police officer and a resident were completely different in our suburb than such an interaction would be in the city.

    The left denies this too, of course.

    Um.

    OK firstly, I agree that policing should be local, and styles of interaction will vary, and that we should not be surprised to find that urban police are less warm and fuzzy than suburban police, who, in turn are less all-smiles than rural police.

    Because of their population distribution, a black person person can reasonably conclude that the different treatment is about race, rather than class or location.

    I don’t know if black-on-black violence is more likely in cities than in rural areas, but with more blacks in cities than in rural areas, the raw numbers are definitely higher.

    • #66
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    TBA (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Dbroussa (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):
    Hospitals kill 250,000 people a year

    That’s an absurd number.

    Regardless of how you quantify a “hospital killing someone,” that’s not close. That would be more than 10% of our deaths in this country.

    I have seen cases where the care received by the patient in the hospital could have been better, and I’ve seen cases where it turned out to even be harmful. Those cases are rare, but they do happen.

    But a quarter of a million people a year?

    That’s absurd.

    Incidentally, I’m not criticizing you, Don. I’ve seen that number at anywhere between 2,500 deaths per year to over a million. You picked one. Ok, fine.

    And I don’t pretend to know the real number. It depends on how you define “kill,” I suppose. But it’s not 250k.

    We withdraw drugs from the market that kill only 2 or 3 people. Banned by the FDA. That’s it.

    We would never tolerate a system of concentrations camps like that.

    Funny you mention that…

    A quick internet search reveals…

     

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

    https://patch.com/california/san-diego/10-medical-malpractice-statistics-you-should-know

    https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

    There’s much more, if you keep searching.

    The fact that it makes no sense becomes less relevant if you get enough hits on Google.

    Again, there’s just no way that 10% of the deaths in this country are from medical mistakes.

    I’ve been involved in a couple deaths that might reasonably be attributed to medical mistakes. I was not the doctor in charge, but I was familiar with the case. A couple of cases. I’ve been practicing for 25 years. I could recite the whole case to you. It was memorable, unfortunately.

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    Obesity can be caused by eating badly, not just by eating too much. But it would probably be a good idea if every young person in school received a copy of the excellent book “How To Lie With Statistics.”

     

    Or we could teach them statistics.

    I tell everyone that it is impossible to lie to someone using statistics. If that person understands statistics.

    Yes, but there are certain groups who are just innately inferior and can’t really ever understand statistics. I think we all know who I’m talking about here; journalists.

    Maybe politicians too.

    • #67
  8. Dotorimuk Coolidge
    Dotorimuk
    @Dotorimuk

    I can’t take a man who refers to himself as “tha God” seriously.

    ”Is tha God here?”

    ”No, he went to Arby’s.”

    • #68
  9. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge
    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!)
    @DonG

    TBA (View Comment):
    OK firstly, I agree that policing should be local, and styles of interaction will vary, and that we should not be surprised to find that urban police are less warm and fuzzy than suburban police, who, in turn are less all-smiles than rural police. 

    Cops work for cities or counties, but they can still follow national standards.  Think of firefighters.  They work for a city or county and while they have different types of challenges, they should all be trained on best procedures.   One important thing about having national standards, is that it helps the people that cops have to deal with.  Who wants a different standard every time they get pulled over?  This is important, because I want my local police to be effective in controlling crime.  When there are badly trained cops, it hurts the entire profession and then makes me less safe.

    • #69
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Dotorimuk (View Comment):

    I can’t take a man who refers to himself as “tha God” seriously.

    ”Is tha God here?”

    ”No, he went to Arby’s.”

    I’ve got you beat, I stop taking someone seriously as soon as I get to “Charlamagne.”

    • #70
  11. Joker Member
    Joker
    @Joker

    How’s this for a national standard, Don: Don’t fight with police, don’t resist arrest and don’t flee. 

    • #71
  12. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    OK firstly, I agree that policing should be local, and styles of interaction will vary, and that we should not be surprised to find that urban police are less warm and fuzzy than suburban police, who, in turn are less all-smiles than rural police.

    Cops work for cities or counties, but they can still follow national standards. Think of firefighters. They work for a city or county and while they have different types of challenges, they should all be trained on best procedures. One important thing about having national standards, is that it helps the people that cops have to deal with. Who wants a different standard every time they get pulled over? This is important, because I want my local police to be effective in controlling crime. When there are badly trained cops, it hurts the entire profession and then makes me less safe.

    Cops working to national standards will be nationally controlled.  New York and California will control your police. 

    Firemen don’t arrest people and throw them in jail.  

    Having different standards is beneficial, not a detriment.  If everyone has the same standards then improvement is slow and hard.  

    • #72
  13. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    Tex929rr: I just don’t get it. I don’t know if I could have any sort of conversation with people that do this stuff or defend it. It’s a different America than the one I live in. What is going on?

    Here is what baffles me. There are 800K cops in the country and they are not working together to improve their performance or their image. The cop unions and fraternal orders are failing. Hospitals kill 250,000 people a year and nobody is calling for them to be defunded, so public relations can work.

    If I was king of the cops here’s what I would do:
    1) establish national standards on use of force
    2) establish national standards on care of detained persons
    3) establish national standards on courtesy and service standards
    4) train the crap out of cops
    5) establish something like the NTSB, to study incidents and correct standards annually
    6) invest billions in new technology (we can do better than clubs and guns)
    7) purge the bad apples. Chick-fil-a does not tolerate unfriendly workers
    8) run a PR campaign. pay people in Hollywood to write scripts that show cops being friendly and respectful

    I am an engineer and I just see a daily parade of human factor and technology problems in policing. When a plane crashes, pre-flight checklists get reviewed/updated. When a surgeon removes the wrong kidney, the procedure is updated to use a sharpie on the patient before they are sedated. Our problems are fixable, but the people in charge don’t have the knowledge or incentive to fix them. This problem is going to have to get fixed by the cops themselves or by some national pro–law citizens group.

    And…that’s why we don’t put engineers in charge.

    • #73
  14. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):
    If I was king of the cops here’s what I would do:
    1) establish national standards on use of force
    2) establish national standards on care of detained persons
    3) establish national standards on courtesy and service standards

    You sound like the Democrats who thought our country needed a national mask mandate and national lockdown measures.

    No I don’t. I didn’t say government should do it. Most professions have national standards. Cops should act and be treated as professionals.

    Lots have state standards, too.  You’re essentially arguing to nationlize the police.

    That’s not a good idea, and it’s not going to solve or stop problems where those same people, under some sort of magical federal training mandate, have to make life or death decisions in seconds.

    You really think a nationalized training program is going to create magical failure-proof human robots?  The human world is not math.

    • #74
  15. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    There is a different world out there in many urban areas. In the northeast US city I lived near until a couple of years ago knife fights among girls were fairly common, and actually were rarely fatal. But they tended to be vicious and protracted. The girls tended not to be strategic in their fighting moves, making the fights tended to be chaotic and unpredictable, and extremely dangerous for authorities to try to intervene and break up.

    The fights among boys had a different dynamic, more often being short and then pausing until someone went off to get a gun and return to conduct a drive-by shooting, often fatal. When doing hand-to-hand fighting, the boys tended to be more strategic than the girls, but that also made their fights more predictable and therefore easier for an authority to intervene and break up.

    Since the Bryant event took place at a foster home, I wouldn’t necessarily assume the placid suburban looking setting was necessarily the environment in which the girls had spent most of their lives.

     

    See the source image

    • #75
  16. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    OK firstly, I agree that policing should be local, and styles of interaction will vary, and that we should not be surprised to find that urban police are less warm and fuzzy than suburban police, who, in turn are less all-smiles than rural police.

    Cops work for cities or counties, but they can still follow national standards. Think of firefighters. They work for a city or county and while they have different types of challenges, they should all be trained on best procedures. One important thing about having national standards, is that it helps the people that cops have to deal with. Who wants a different standard every time they get pulled over? This is important, because I want my local police to be effective in controlling crime. When there are badly trained cops, it hurts the entire profession and then makes me less safe.

    We should then have:

    National Drivers Licensing Standards

    National Gun Permitting Standards

    National Cupcake Baking Standards

    The thing is, right now, a cop is somewhere wrasslin’ some chowderhead to the ground.  Did his or her training work well enough to handle the situation?  Would it have escalated?  Would lethal force have been required?

    Who knows?  I know though, that providing an Approved Tactical Response Checklist that officers responding to 911 calls must walk through, so all standards are adhered to, will mean more deaths, not fewer, because Fed Cops ™ will simply stop taking action.  They will become federal bureaucrats, locked into the standards behavior created by idiots, and enforced by simpletons.

    But yeah.  Let’s nationalize everything.  That’ll fix it.  That’ll stop untenable situations from occurring.  It’ll weed out bad cops and make criminals think twice before doin’ dirt.

     

     

    • #76
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) (View Comment):
    Who wants a different standard every time they get pulled over?

    Much preferred to one stupid national standard. 

    • #77
  18. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    Obesity can be caused by eating badly, not just by eating too much. But it would probably be a good idea if every young person in school received a copy of the excellent book “How To Lie With Statistics.”

    Yes!!! That book is very eye-opening and why I tend to be fairly skeptical of them. And it’s not a very long read.

    How to Lie with Statistics

    • #78
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Weeping (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    Obesity can be caused by eating badly, not just by eating too much. But it would probably be a good idea if every young person in school received a copy of the excellent book “How To Lie With Statistics.”

    Yes!!! That book is very eye-opening and why I tend to be fairly skeptical of them. And it’s not a very long read.

    How to Lie with Statistics

    I actually bought a couple or three print copies a while back, one brand new for keeping, the others are “reading copies.”

    • #79
  20. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth. 

    • #80
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t that “deluded?”

    • #81
  22. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    TBA (View Comment):

    There was a time in our history when bar brawls and public fights were considerably more frequent.

    But none of the participants were surprised when the police came and arrested them.

    Then the brawls and public fights became less frequent. We could probably benefit from studying the history of public fighting, its flow and ebb, its cultural adherents and cultural detractors, in order to find out what makes it acceptable behavior. Because what the reaction to this event suggests is that there is a wide perception that the officer interfered in, and overreacted to a normal private dispute.

    One of the nice things about duels was that the participants were obliged to keep them out of sight and out of range, and they knew full well that the law was not with them. 

    People who fight with crowds watching – well, there’s a reason we have referees for that kind of sport. 

    • #82
  23. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    kedavis (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t that “deluded?”

    I think it’s like ‘schizo’, ‘depressed’, ‘manic’, and similar – the terms are properly kept to the literally mentally ill rather than the casual usage. 

    • #83
  24. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t self deception still deception?  And isn’t the great majority of behaviors resulting from self-deception matters of convenience?

    • #84
  25. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Flicker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t self deception still deception? And isn’t the great majority of behaviors resulting from self-deception matters of convenience?

    People who self-deceive are less to blame that people who purposely deceive others. The self-deceived need help, the other-deceiving need censure. 

    • #85
  26. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    TBA (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t self deception still deception? And isn’t the great majority of behaviors resulting from self-deception matters of convenience?

    People who self-deceive are less to blame that people who purposely deceive others. The self-deceived need help, the other-deceiving need censure.

    I can see that.  But they can also be equal at times.  Who is more harmful, the self-deceived Munchhausen’s-by-proxy mother who dresses her 5-year-old son up as a girl and calls him Luna and a few years later schedules him for hormone blockers?  Or those professionals who propagate the whole transsexual fantasy?

    Come to think of it, who are these professionals?  Everyone seems to take transsexuality as a matter of faith; who is actually advocating for it?  For example, where would Angelina Jolie have gotten the idea from?  Hollywood personalities?

    (PS: I hear Meghan Markle is thinking of having Harry transition.)

    • #86
  27. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):
    (PS: I hear Meghan Markle is thinking of having Harry transition.)

    Isn’t “he” about halfway there already?  Sure sounds like it to me.

    • #87
  28. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    TBA (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t that “deluded?”

    I think it’s like ‘schizo’, ‘depressed’, ‘manic’, and similar – the terms are properly kept to the literally mentally ill rather than the casual usage.

    I like to think that people can be deluded and yet not mentally ill.  Look at dyed in the wool NTers.

    • #88
  29. Dbroussa Coolidge
    Dbroussa
    @Dbroussa

    Weeping (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    We always have to remember that statistics are complied with a mission. There is the whole “one in five” children go to bed hungry in America. That is utter BS. We have a rampant obesity problem. There are not “food deserts” in America. It is more like we have a dessert problem.

    Obesity can be caused by eating badly, not just by eating too much. But it would probably be a good idea if every young person in school received a copy of the excellent book “How To Lie With Statistics.”

    Yes!!! That book is very eye-opening and why I tend to be fairly skeptical of them. And it’s not a very long read.

    How to Lie with Statistics

    We read that book when I was in High School, I forget for which class, I think it was AP Biology to be honest.

    • #89
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SOmeone willing to pull a knife on someone else is risking deadly force being used against them.

    The policeman acted correctly 100%. That anyone says otherwise is to in fact, lie. If they were the one threatened with a knife, they would be fine with deadly force to protect them.

    Let me say that again: Anyone who claims that they don’t think deadly force was called for is lying.

    I wouldn’t say lying so much as deluded.

    Speaking as a professional, I can say they are not psychotic and delusional. They are lying. Now, denial is a lie to the self so that me be it, but it is still a lie.

    Fair enough. I think, though, that we need a word for people who are ‘lying to themselves’ that differentiates from lying to others while knowing the truth.

    Isn’t that “deluded?”

    I think it’s like ‘schizo’, ‘depressed’, ‘manic’, and similar – the terms are properly kept to the literally mentally ill rather than the casual usage.

    I like to think that people can be deluded and yet not mentally ill. Look at dyed in the wool NTers.

    Well, actually…  Okay,fine, I won’t pile on!

    • #90
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