Split Focus

 

God began early, hunting me down and taking hold of me when I was just a child in Farmington, Connecticut. I wasn’t born there, but close by in Maine at a Naval hospital that no longer calls itself a hospital, and to this day still raises questions of its location; Maine or New Hampshire? My parents weren’t exactly religious given my father was a rigid perfectionist and my mother was a neurotic depressive. I emerged from the womb happy, which was taken advantage of by my mother and beheld with contempt by my father.

I say this to now say that we sometimes went to church (at least until the elders came to the house to collect offerings and ticked off my mother), I didn’t go to catechism, and in third grade, I was best friends with a Jewish girl who had never heard of Jesus until I told her about Him while playing out in the field near the school’s monkey bars. I don’t remember exactly when I found Him, except maybe the one summer I went to vacation Bible school in Farmington and we used felt-covered boards and characters to show Jesus running down the hill away from the big boulder chasing Him from the tomb. The young teen-aged teacher was creative even if not theologically sound.

Despite my less than perfect “churching,” there were four things that I “knew” early on.

  1. God loves me, is interested in me, and will never forget me.
  2. God has a plan for my life regardless of how things might look.
  3. God is present and if I get quiet, I will hear Him and He will show me what to do.
  4. God is behind things, engineering and allowing my circumstances to move and flow to His liking, revealing His hand in it all, but only in retrospect.

I’ve also learned that I can’t measure God’s love by the degree of ease and pleasure my life might offer. Ease and pleasure have nothing to do with God’s love. Well, sometimes it does, but only when that ease and pleasure points to Him.

Another thing I’ve learned is that He’s perfectly fine with allowing me to live with uncertainty about my own future and safety. I don’t like it, but He seems to have gone out of His way to put me through the boot camp of uncertainty at different times throughout my life, and now I wonder if there is a moment fast approaching when I will understand why.

I’m like anyone else. We want to control what happens, to protect ourselves, to pursue our own dreams, to make stuff happen. And for many of us that means we watch, study, calculate, prognosticate, anticipate, make plans, chase after the heroic, and obsess about what we’ll do to get through.

Don’t do that.

Why?

Because when you do that, when you read the news, listen to the podcasts, and allow the increasingly distorted perspectives of truth come into your mind, it will distract you from the only voice you ought to be seeking right now.

God is always talking. His word is alive and powerful.

Take time to hunker down and listen, be encouraged, and do that of which He asks. Your assignment may not seem like much, but it doesn’t matter. You will only find the strength to stand by doing that which He requires of you … you specifically … no more and no less.

Don’t split your focus. Be all in.

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  1. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Flicker (View Comment):
    It is not God that should inspire us to interpret scientific data, it is the data that should challenge us to know God.

    Fabulous response … the entire post. This is what I cannot pull myself away from, and many I try to talk with think I’m nuts. But now I know it’s because I live too isolated from those who are curious about the big questions of life.

    • #61
  2. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    He gets quiet sometimes, especially when I’ve moved out of my lane, but He’s always there, waiting patiently while working diligently in the deeper regions of my wounded and corrupted soul.

    But G-d doesn’t make people believe in capitalism or evolution. If G-d doesn’t bring people into the most important Truths of our reality, shouldn’t humanity try to step up?

    Isn’t capitalism just one name for an intellectual construct? God initiated private ownership. And God upheld private ownership. And moreover God says that one can give away what he wants without interference. And by implication at least, God justifies selling what one owns, and buying what one wants to own. What about capitalism or free market did God leave out?

    You are correct that religious faith does lead to some support of capitalism. Study after suggests that Church attendance increase support that free-market policies. However, I don’t think that Christianity necessarily supports the scientific method or Empiricism or the very best of free market philosophy.

    G-d and religion doesn’t make people in what is scientifically true from what I have observed. What Christianity does quite well is that it diverts our human desire religion into (usually) positive social institutions. As G.K. Chesterton put it, “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in everything.” Socialism is more of a religion than a political philosophy and it is demonstrably worse than Christianity. What Christianity does not do is focus on the Scientific Method or an empirical analysis of anything.

    G-d does not motivate people to think like Thomas Sowell or to learn history or to understand how to interpret scientific data. In a very important way, humanity’s religious impulse is insufficient for the pursuit of knowledge.

    I struggle to get down into the weeds of your specific observations because I live at the meta level (even though I do have a minor degree in Economics so am no slouch there) … but the fact that you refer to both G.K. Chesterton and Thomas Sowell is absolutely wonderful.

    Oh, and I disagree that God doesn’t motivate us to think in certain ways. If not for His promptings and nudges I would only have been a wanderer.

    Acts 17:28 For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ c

    • #62
  3. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    By the way, G-d does not make any “bad” genes. And we are always able to break free from our past or our predecessors genes. G-d gave us free will and we can learn what not to do, as well as what to do from our parents/ancestors (so-called ‘good’ versus ‘bad’ genes). Choices and behavior can override animal-like impulses if we are intentional about it by seeking virtue.

    Every thing you said was wrong. If G-d is responsible for every gene. He is responsible for Genghis Khan’s thousands of rapes and his children raping other women.

    Those genes probably still influence the number of rapes committed be Asians today. What in the world does G-d have to do with that? Also, does G-d want children to die from a multitude of miserable genetic diseases? That sounds like cults that don’t treat sick people with modern medicine.

    And we are always able to break free from our past or our predecessors genes. G-d gave us free will and we can learn what not to do, as well as what to do from our parents/ancestors (so-called ‘good’ versus ‘bad’ genes). Choices and behavior can override animal-like impulses if we are intentional about it by seeking virtue.

    I do not have the I.Q. to become a physicist no matter how much I research. I simply don’t have the mathematical I.Q. for that. I never will. I could never have become a Professional basketball player either. We are deeply limited by our genes.

    These two studies are part of a growing body of research that suggests that our beliefs are genetic. To begin to address Flicker’s point we don’t freely choose our beliefs. None of us could have thought that slavery should have been abolished before the Scottish Enlightenment. We never had the chance to be that intellectually free.

    In a similar fashion, much of our beliefs are determined by our genes and our environment. Maybe we have the spark of free will but it isn’t very big. 30% genetic, 40% cultural 15% chance and 15% freedom if we are lucky.

     

     

    I have stumbled upon a concept I call Deep Time. Across the ages, my ancestors passed on genes from generation to generation. There is no doubt that I carry a similar temperament as my ancestors going back to the 1600’s in New Amsterdam, now Manhattan. Without going into details, I know God is the engineer of this generation to generation flow of genes because the stories and the circumstances and the amazing parallels and “coincidences” are beyond chance. I know I’m part of a much much bigger story, playing a small roll in this moment, pushed forward by the 36 generations before me and continuing the push to the next. 

    • #63
  4. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Christian societies succeed at science because the Catholic Church incorporated Aristotle into their tradition. The Catholic Church did support the idea that the physical world can be understand through the reason given to us by G-d. However, I don’t know if Christianity would be a pro-science religion without Aristotle. A very different counterfactual.

    Why does Christianity argue more for empiricism than Aristotle?

    What Christianity does quite well is institute the positive social institutions you praise. And human desire to religion is a corruption of the human desire to be with and adore God. Your Chesterton quote actually emphasizes this.

    Religion existed for thousands of years before the Jews showed up in Sumeria. Humans were religious before anyone ever thought about an Abrahamic G-d.

    God does motivate people to understand history. Historicity is fundamental to Christianity. Even the Apostles’ Creed includes historical references to make clear that Christ’s life suffering on earth under Pontius Pilate was historical fact. Christian history is documented back 3,500 years and this history is studied by various Christians every day. It is, if anything, non-Christians who have little interest in history.

    Christianity inspires people to study history from a moral perspective. Not necessarily an empirical one.

    It is not God that should inspire us to interpret scientific data, it is the data that should challenge us to know God.

    No idea what you talking about there.

    Henry, you have for the purposes of this post, created a false dichotomy.  You are arguing essentially that seeking empirical truth and promoting capitalism are (among) the chief ends of humanity, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, or His Church, has not done enough to promote these ends.  This shows that you are approaching the argument without considering at all the possibility of the existence or the nature of God, and so no amount of thought or argument can come directly to the point.

    You are reducing the greatness of God to one whose prime mission includes inspiring men to advance human endeavors.  But the point of God dealing with His creation is to save mankind, who are the epitome of His creation, from death and to conform mankind into a creation fit to live in His company.

    You think God should direct humans to fervently examine their own data about God’s creation, as if finding out more about His creation is the end in itself.  But whatever we see, whatever data we glean from God’s creation should be used to point to God and to bring to Him a small fraction of the glory He deserves.  After all He did create the entire universe and us, not for its own or our own benefit, but for His good pleasure.

    • #64
  5. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Christian societies succeed at science because the Catholic Church incorporated Aristotle into their tradition. The Catholic Church did support the idea that the physical world can be understand through the reason given to us by G-d. However, I don’t know if Christianity would be a pro-science religion without Aristotle. A very different counterfactual.

    Why does Christianity argue more for empiricism than Aristotle?

    What Christianity does quite well is institute the positive social institutions you praise. And human desire to religion is a corruption of the human desire to be with and adore God. Your Chesterton quote actually emphasizes this.

    Religion existed for thousands of years before the Jews showed up in Sumeria. Humans were religious before anyone ever thought about an Abrahamic G-d.

    God does motivate people to understand history. Historicity is fundamental to Christianity. Even the Apostles’ Creed includes historical references to make clear that Christ’s life suffering on earth under Pontius Pilate was historical fact. Christian history is documented back 3,500 years and this history is studied by various Christians every day. It is, if anything, non-Christians who have little interest in history.

    Christianity inspires people to study history from a moral perspective. Not necessarily an empirical one.

    It is not God that should inspire us to interpret scientific data, it is the data that should challenge us to know God.

    No idea what you talking about there.

    Henry, you have for the purposes of this post, created a false dichotomy. You are arguing essentially that seeking empirical truth and promoting capitalism are (among) the chief ends of humanity, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, or His Church, has not done enough to promote these ends. This shows that you are approaching the argument without considering at all the possibility of the existence or the nature of God, and so no amount of thought or argument can come directly to the point.

    You are reducing the greatness of God to one whose prime mission includes inspiring men to advance human endeavors. But the point of God dealing with His creation is to save mankind, who are the epitome of His creation, from death and to conform mankind into a creation fit to live in His company.

    You think God should direct humans to fervently examine their own data about God’s creation, as if finding out more about His creation is the end in itself. But whatever we see, whatever data we glean from God’s creation should be used to point to God and to bring to Him a small fraction of the glory He deserves. After all He did create the entire universe and us, not for its own or our own benefit, but for His good pleasure.

    Amen

    • #65
  6. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Columbo (View Comment):
    Our religious impulse is written on our hearts by our Creator. St. Augustine memorably stated in his Confessions that “our heart is restless, until it rests in You.” [link]

    Is there any good data that suggests Christianity is more fulfilling for people than say, Buddhism?

    • #66
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    Our religious impulse is written on our hearts by our Creator. St. Augustine memorably stated in his Confessions that “our heart is restless, until it rests in You.” [link]

    Is there any good data that suggests Christianity is more fulfilling for people than say, Buddhism?

    Should it be more fulfilling? 

    • #67
  8. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):
    Our religious impulse is written on our hearts by our Creator. St. Augustine memorably stated in his Confessions that “our heart is restless, until it rests in You.” [link]

    Is there any good data that suggests Christianity is more fulfilling for people than say, Buddhism?

    Well, there may be data, but it’s not really about fulfillment. It’s about recognizing that God has sacrificed His own Son to pay our debts, debts rooted in and multiplying out of the Fall, seeing what He’s done and the implications of it (freedom), humbling ourselves and acknowledging that we are nothing without Him, and pursuing Him with our whole hearts, minds, and souls. What you need to understand, Henry, is that God is real, present, and moving. It is not a philosophy but is the foundation of all things, including philosophy.  It is the ONLY world religion centered upon a historical event, the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. And so much more … infinitely more.

    It’s not about fulfillment. There’s a lot of suffering, a lot of denying of “self,” a lot of humiliation. But it is through these trials and tribulations that God’s Spirit transforms us into the image and character of Christ. If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter. Goodness, morality, kindness, faith, love, hope, honor, integrity, honesty, peacemaking, healing … I could go on … would all be for what? Have you thought about any of that? Have you thought about the possibility of absolute truth? Seriously … now’s the time.

    • #68
  9. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):

    Arthur Beare (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I never get any of the G-d stuff.

    Bummer, dude. Do you want to get it?

    Now that is the big question, isn’t it?

    Exactly

    I think it’s more whether or not you have the genes and whether those genes have been activated to get it. More and more studies suggest that religious belief is hardwired into you.

    Really? Could you cite one for us?

    That God gene stuff is probably hog wash. It seems like some computer geeks wanted to sel the US Pentagon on the idea that there were genetic hard wires laid down inside our DNA, and the people who had those would go from being cute little babies like everyone else and then become fanatical killers when they reached young adult hood.

    In actuality, most fanatical killers have had some oppressive and violent situations occur early in their lives which leads them to want to achieve revenge on the person or group that caused them the earlier trauma. (Think Geronimo – as a youth, he saw his mom  raped and killed, with other family members massacred, by the US Cavalry.)

    Here is the video of the geek explaining the God gene to the US CIA officials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piELyx5gaUI

     

     

    • #69
  10. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):

    Arthur Beare (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I never get any of the G-d stuff.

    Bummer, dude. Do you want to get it?

    Now that is the big question, isn’t it?

    Exactly

    I think it’s more whether or not you have the genes and whether those genes have been activated to get it. More and more studies suggest that religious belief is hardwired into you.

    Really? Could you cite one for us?

    Here are two. More importantly than these individual studies, all of my research into genetics and heritability suggest that almost everything if 50-60% genetic. If the capacity for religion was not influenced heavily by genetics than it would be about the only thing not influenced by genetics.

    All of those other things influenced by heredity are solely in the physical two-dimensional world. They ignore the spiritual dimension. The Holy Spirit indwells in our soul, if we surrender ourselves and welcome Him into our hearts. He awaits our free will decision to allow Him into our lives in prayer. 

    • #70
  11. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

     

     

     

    • #71
  12. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

    That’s the entire point. These are expressly spiritual, not human, feelings. We surrender to God via the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit to inhabit our soul, heart and being. We are body and soul, flesh and spirit. To GLW’s point above, if the only thing that ‘mattered’ was this earthly existence, why would we not give in to every human emotional feeling of our selfish human desires? Why would we be any different than animals. Forget criminal activity. How about carnal activity, and disregard for anything that would seem to restrict our selfish pleasure?

    Above, the question was asked, do you want to believe?  God wishes us to ask and pray. He is waiting to provide all of his blessings, regardless of one’s genes or other human weaknesses. In the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, this is pointed out in a very memorable and classic way …

    “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

    This is a promise to everyone, regardless of genes, ancestors, what we have done, or failed to do. God is Love and Mercy incarnate, and He desires to share that with everyone, if we but ask Him for it.

    I am reminded of Paschal’s Wager.[link] We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God with merely our bodily existence. If we ignore the spiritual realm and existence of a soul within, we cannot realize the existence of God within our intellect and reasoning. If you choose to believe or follow in some fashion of  “holiness”  God’s call in your earthly life, and I am wrong, there is really no downside to you, other than some earthly pleasure ‘given up’; but if I am right and you choose to disbelieve and ignore, the downside to you is eternal damnation. The intellectual answer to Pascal was easy. 

     

     

     

    • #72
  13. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Columbo (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

    That’s the entire point. These are expressly spiritual, not human, feelings. We surrender to God via the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit to inhabit our soul, heart and being. We are body and soul, flesh and spirit. To GLW’s point above, if the only thing that ‘mattered’ was this earthly existence, why would we not give in to every human emotional feeling of our selfish human desires? Why would we be any different than animals. Forget criminal activity. How about carnal activity, and disregard for anything that would seem to restrict our selfish pleasure?

    Above, the question was asked, do you want to believe? God wishes us to ask and pray. He is waiting to provide all of his blessings, regardless of one’s genes or other human weaknesses. In the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, this is pointed out in a very memorable and classic way …

    “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

    This is a promise to everyone, regardless of genes, ancestors, what we have done, or failed to do. God is Love and Mercy incarnate, and He desires to share that with everyone, if we but ask Him for it.

    I am reminded of Paschal’s Wager.[link] We cannot prove or disprove the existence of God with merely our bodily existence. If we ignore the spiritual realm and existence of a soul within, we cannot realize the existence of God within our intellect and reasoning. If you choose to believe or follow in some fashion of “holiness” God’s call in your earthly life, and I am wrong, there is really no downside to you, other than some earthly pleasure ‘given up’; but if I am right and you choose to disbelieve and ignore, the downside to you is eternal damnation. The intellectual answer to Pascal was easy.

     

     

     

    Thanks for elaborating on my original point. I might have been clearer, for sure but you said it well. Appreciate it … I had a long shift today and it’s great to see kingdom work is always underway even when I miss seeing it in action. 

    • #73
  14. God-LovingWoman Coolidge
    God-LovingWoman
    @GodLovingWoman

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne 

    Columbo

    Henry, you have for the purposes of this post, created a false dichotomy. You are arguing essentially that seeking empirical truth and promoting capitalism are (among) the chief ends of humanity, and that the Lord Jesus Christ, or His Church, has not done enough to promote these ends. This shows that you are approaching the argument without considering at all the possibility of the existence or the nature of God, and so no amount of thought or argument can come directly to the point.

    You are reducing the greatness of God to one whose prime mission includes inspiring men to advance human endeavors. But the point of God dealing with His creation is to save mankind, who are the epitome of His creation, from death and to conform mankind into a creation fit to live in His company.

    You think God should direct humans to fervently examine their own data about God’s creation, as if finding out more about His creation is the end in itself. But whatever we see, whatever data we glean from God’s creation should be used to point to God and to bring to Him a small fraction of the glory He deserves. After all He did create the entire universe and us, not for its own or our own benefit, but for His good pleasure.

    Henry, I suspect that Sir Flicker has zeroed in on the foundational premise of your views shared so far in this discussion. We clearly do not share a common context. Context is extremely important to the soundness and progress of dialog. Otherwise, we share past each other, offering counterpoints and claims that have little to do with the original content of the discussion, including the important nuances.

    Now, it’s easy for me to say that because I come from a worldview that recognizes the transcendent, mysterious, and boundless existence of God and His Kingdom. Again, it is not a philosophy – it is centered upon historical events and begs to be explored for the implications regarding who God is, where peace originates from, and why we’re here. I see life, the world, society, politics, conflict, collaboration, problems, suffering, economics, history … basically everything through that lens. At least I try. It is the only lens that can make sense of it all and gives me hope despite the darkness of this age. 

    If you were willing to look beyond the confines of your own observations and theories about religion (which is in dismal shape and does not represent well – read A. W. Tozer’s The Size of the Soul), then we could probably talk about specifics like capitalism. Again .. a common context is missing for our discussion. I think that’s our difficulty in communicating. Anyway, I intend only good benefits from all of back and forth. You have given me much to consider.

    • #74
  15. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    It is the only lens that can make sense of it all and gives me hope despite the darkness of this age. 

    The hope isn’t important, it’s the veracity. 

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    f you were willing to look beyond the confines of your own observations and theories about religion (which is in dismal shape and does not represent well – read A. W. Tozer’s The Size of the Soul)

    I read The Golden Bough and I’m fairly knowledgeable about other religions. Though apparently, I am at a loss with regard to the book of Daniel. Where did I misstate a religious fact?

    • #75
  16. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

     

     

    Your reply reminded me of Ricky Gervais’ wisecrack that the Indians believe in some 6200 gods and goddesses, while Christians only believe in one.

    So an atheist is rather similar to a Christian in that both refuse to believe in 6199 gods and goddesses.

    It is all about perspective.

     

     

    • #76
  17. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

     

     

    Your reply reminded me of Ricky Gervais’ wisecrack that the Indians believe in some 6200 gods and goddesses, while Christians only believe in one.

    So an atheist is rather similar to a Christian in that both refuse to believe in 6199 gods and goddesses.

    It is all about perspective.

    Christians don’t get how bizarre their beliefs are to non-Christian people. We are all guilty of assuming that we are so normal that others share our tastes and beliefs. I think it’s because Christians hang out with other Christians all the time and religion has a much stronger psycho-chemical effect than what kinds of t.v. shows and movies you like.

    • #77
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    God-LovingWoman (View Comment):
    If I didn’t believe that, I’d be lying, cheating, stealing, and drinking a bottle of wine every night because … nothing would really matter.

    I highly doubt that. Most atheists aren’t more criminal than believers. Religion does seem to inhibit crimes among some of the poorer classes but not a hige amount.

    As for absolute Truth. You sound like a Marxist talking about science. You have the feels for a philosophy so you believe in it. Why should I trust your feelings more than a Buddhist or Wiccan? It’s all human feelings and they are notoriously untrustworthy.

    Your reply reminded me of Ricky Gervais’ wisecrack that the Indians believe in some 6200 gods and goddesses, while Christians only believe in one.

    So an atheist is rather similar to a Christian in that both refuse to believe in 6199 gods and goddesses.

    It is all about perspective.

    Christians don’t get how bizarre their beliefs are to non-Christian people. We are all guilty of assuming that we are so normal that others share our tastes and beliefs. I think it’s because Christians hang out with other Christians all the time and religion has a much stronger psycho-chemical effect than what kinds of t.v. shows and movies you like.

    That’s the funny thing about atheists critiquing Christians, they don’t know, nor do they credit, what Christians think.

    • #78
  19. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Flicker (View Comment):

    That’s the funny thing about atheists critiquing Christians, they don’t know, nor do they credit, what Christians think.

    Atheists have also gotten preachy, boring and self-contradictory. The irony is hilarious. 

     

    • #79
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    That’s the funny thing about atheists critiquing Christians, they don’t know, nor do they credit, what Christians think.

    Atheists have also gotten preachy, boring and self-contradictory. The irony is hilarious.

    And by and large most Christians have been atheists and know what and how they think.

    • #80
  21. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Flicker (View Comment):
    And by and large most Christians have been atheists and know what and how they think.

    This seems extremely unlikely from what I remember. What data do you have to suggest this? 

    • #81
  22. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    And by and large most Christians have been atheists and know what and how they think.

    This seems extremely unlikely from what I remember. What data do you have to suggest this?

    Data?  I know because I am one.

    No one is born a Christian.  Becoming a Christian requires repentance or a metanoia or (loosely) “change of mind”.  Even Catholics go through training and confirmation.  And protestants are non-Christians before they become Christians.  And every Christian I know personally was an atheist, or at least ignoring the existence of God, before converting to Christ.

    • #82
  23. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Flicker (View Comment):

    And every Christian I know personally was an atheist, or at least ignoring the existence of God, before converting to Christ.

    Atheists and ignoring the existence of the real or imagined judgement of G-d isn’t the same as not believing in G-d. Also, when you get baptized aren’t you a Christian in some kind of way. 

    • #83
  24. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    And every Christian I know personally was an atheist, or at least ignoring the existence of God, before converting to Christ.

    Atheists and ignoring the existence of the real or imagined judgement of G-d isn’t the same as not believing in G-d. Also, when you get baptized aren’t you a Christian in some kind of way.

    I was loose in my phrasing, but actually, it is functionally the same. There is one God.  Ignoring his existence is either atheism or worse.  I won’t speak to every doctrine of baptism, but it doesn’t apply to this conversation or to salvation.

    • #84
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