A Real Conversation About Race

 

Many on the left claim we don’t have the courage to have a real conversation about race. No, we just don’t want to have a conversation on your terms. And therein lies the conundrum. Back in June, I reached out to an African-American friend to have a real conversation about George Floyd and race. While it was a pleasant conversation, with no acrimony, I felt we didn’t move the needle much. I got the sense he felt tokenized – that is, I was only reaching out to him because he was “my black friend.” I also got the sense he had a tough time moving past the left talking points.

So I would love to have a real conversation about race with someone of a different race. I sincerely would like to hear how you really feel, the pain you feel. For all progress we have made on race, I acknowledge we have more work to do. I have heard many African Americans still feel like they don’t belong in this country. That’s horrible, and I truly want to listen and understand. At the same time, I am uninterested in a conversation where:

  • The other party feels like I am reaching just to “show how much I care.”
  • The purpose is to make me (as a white male) guilty and gain absolvement for my sins.
  • Mobs, stealing, and violence are excused if not glorified.
  • The goal is to further segregate the races (e.g., African Americans should only live with other African Americans).
  • The topic of anti-semitism amongst black leadership is off-limits. As someone who is Jewish (and honestly even if not), I cannot simply ignore the rabid antisemitism of some black leaders. It infuriates me that one kind of hatred is tolerated and excused while the other is the scourge of the earth. The relationship between Jews and African Americans is troubled, with both sides at fault, and we need to be honest about that.
  • Criticism of the BLM movement is off-limits.
  • Institutional racism is a given.

To be clear, I am very open to hearing how I might be unintentionally inconsiderate and insensitive; criticism that there are things I just don’t understand is very much open for discussion. That’s the whole point of this conversation. Help me understand, see your perspective. But I won’t be a punching bag for all that is wrong in America.

Is such a conversation possible? If not, I have grave fears for race relations in this country.

Published in General
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 49 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    I think a big part of the problem is that people think they are entitled to control what we think. Instead, I believe the only thing that matters is how I behave, how I treat you. And even then, unless I am outright rude or attack a person, that person is not entitled to tell me how to act. If he or she wants to give me specific feedback on how my actions affected him or her, they should ask if I’m open to feedback; that is respectful behavior. If I think they are asking me to behave in ways that are not “true” for me, I will respectfully decline. If they believe they know what I am thinking through my actions, and that my thinking defines my behavior, that is incredibly disrespectful to me. They are not entitled to my thoughts or to define them. If they want to ask me how I feel about something, I’m open to that inquiry. But if they try to tell me that I don’t think or feel that way, or that I shouldn’t feel that way, we’re done. Bottom line, everyone is entitled to think however they wish. Including me. 

    I’m also not open to comments on systemic racism. If a black person wants to give me specific examples of poor treatment that he or she has experienced, I’ll listen. But I’m not a racist. And that person is not going to lump me into some artificial construct.

    • #1
  2. KentForrester Coolidge
    KentForrester
    @KentForrester

    Bullwinkle, you have a worthy and, I think, achievable goal in mind.  I too would appreciate such a conversation with a Black.

    However, you probably shouldn’t present your conversation mate with the provisos you list, at least not beforehand.  I suppose you could have them in your mind as you talk — and then somehow convey to your fellow discussant when one of  the topics is off limits.  But to bring even a couple of them up beforehand would probably leave the conversation dead in the water.

    That would be a tricky conversation indeed — and full of conversation land mines that would probably explode in your faces.

    Sixty years ago I had such a conversation with a black friend, though neither of us brought up some of the provisos you mention.   He and I were both students at Compton Junior (now Community) College.   I hope such a conversation is still possible.  It’s certainly not possible with a good majority of Blacks.

    • #2
  3. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Sorry, but you’re approaching it wrong.  This is easy:

    Number one: The only reason the left is talking, and talking endlessly, about race is so they can call us racists.  If you know that, you know not to accept their terms.

    Number two: If the topic does come up, it’s important to ask how black people are doing in cities that have been run exclusively by Democrats for 50 years or more.  Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore,.. Crime, poverty, unemployment, education, business, happiness, life.  And ask why, exactly, is that?  Is it impossible to fix?  Or is there an incentive to keep it that way?

    And number three: It is in the best interests of Conservatives that black people succeed, do well in life, and accomplish things.  As opposed to when poverty and crime run rampant.

    • #3
  4. JamesSalerno Inactive
    JamesSalerno
    @JamesSalerno

    It’s difficult because racism doesn’t even have a definition anymore. It’s an all-purpose word used to describe just about anything. The Reddit guys involved in the GameStop stock craziness were apparently doing what they were doing in the name of white supremacy. Where do you go from there if that’s the starting point? How do you have a conversation with someone who thinks like that?

    • #4
  5. Chuck Coolidge
    Chuck
    @Chuckles

    Were my skin blackish (its not) and were I a part of the Ricochet family, I wonder how even the topic would make me feel?  Special? Not part of the family? Uncomfortable? Not good enough? What?

    • #5
  6. WillowSpring Member
    WillowSpring
    @WillowSpring

    I don’t think we will get very far if we start the conversation with “Lets talk about race” (I know that is a gross simplification).  That sets the playing field as one about race rather than individuals.

    As I have gotten older – and accentuated by the lack of normal eye contact with Covid, I have taken to be much more talkative to those – black or white or whatever – that I meet every day.  

    It may get me in trouble, but so far, I have had interesting interactions.

    The other day, I was in a convenience store and a pretty big black guy was checking out.  He clearly knew the clerk, but she seemed to be confused about who he was.

    He said : “Oh – you probably don’t recognize me with the mask!” and pulled down his solid black mask.  I laughed and pointed to his face “But you look just the same!”, since under the mask, he had a heavy black beard.  He, his friend and the clerk all laughed.

    As his friend opened the door for to let me out, they pointed to my car (2003 Z4 – at this point, almost an antique) and asked if it was mine.  I said it was and the original man said he was in the middle of renovating one.  That turned into a conversation about how his work was going and other details about the car.

    So, instead of a black guy and a white guy ignoring each other, we became two old farts in the parking lot with an interest in the same type car.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t have any forum to talk about race, but can only imagine success dealing with it individually. 

    In re-reading this, I am tempted to delete it.  I guess it is my way to answer “I have no idea” to the OP.

    • #6
  7. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    WillowSpring (View Comment):
    In re-reading this, I am tempted to delete it. I guess it is my way to answer “I have no idea” to the OP.

    I’m glad you didn’t! In a sense race shouldn’t be the center of our conversations. We are human beings first, and when we take the opportunity to know another person–black, white or purple–we are building bridges. And maybe that is most important in these times, than to have an intellectual discussion on the topic.

    • #7
  8. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    I don’t think we will get very far if we start the conversation with “Lets talk about race” (I know that is a gross simplification). That sets the playing field as one about race rather than individuals.

    As I have gotten older – and accentuated by the lack of normal eye contact with Covid, I have taken to be much more talkative to those – black or white or whatever – that I meet every day.

    It may get me in trouble, but so far, I have had interesting interactions.

    The other day, I was in a convenience store and a pretty big black guy was checking out. He clearly knew the clerk, but she seemed to be confused about who he was.

    He said : “Oh – you probably don’t recognize me with the mask!” and pulled down his solid black mask. I laughed and pointed to his face “But you look just the same!”, since under the mask, he had a heavy black beard. He, his friend and the clerk all laughed.

    As his friend opened the door for to let me out, they pointed to my car (2003 Z4 – at this point, almost an antique) and asked if it was mine. I said it was and the original man said he was in the middle of renovating one. That turned into a conversation about how his work was going and other details about the car.

    So, instead of a black guy and a white guy ignoring each other, we became two old farts in the parking lot with an interest in the same type car.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t have any forum to talk about race, but can only imagine success dealing with it individually.

    In re-reading this, I am tempted to delete it. I guess it is my way to answer “I have no idea” to the OP.

    Your comment made me think; when do we say, ‘we need to have a conversation on________’ under normal circumstances? I mean it’s kind of weird to pick the topic before hand – that sounds more like a debate, and a debate is a contest with a winner and a loser. 

    What we need is more conversations of any kind. That is how we establish levels of trust. Only through time and back-and-forth sharing of ever more intimate and risky topics can we talk about race. 

    And note that this has to be between individuals willing to eschew nonsense like ‘the [race] experience’ and instead talk about life lived. 

    Otherwise it’s just oration, bloviation, and compulsion. 

    • #8
  9. PHCheese Inactive
    PHCheese
    @PHCheese

    I neither Black or Jewish. I must be also out of date. As a businessman I had many Jewish customers who in turn had many Black employees. Neither party at that time was forced into that situation. I felt the Jews were giving the Blacks a hand up and they welcomed it . I know the Farrakhan crowd hated Jews but felt that was on the fringe. I don’t know the whole story but understand the Israelites went to great lengths to rescue  Black Ethiopian Jews. I don’t remember my Jewish friends or customers demeaning Blacks. Have things changed that much?

    • #9
  10. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    When someone mentions race I invariably ask, “have we won?”

    “What?!”

    “The race. Did we win?”

    The looks on their faces is priceless.

    • #10
  11. Bullwinkle Member
    Bullwinkle
    @Bullwinkle

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Bullwinkle, you have a worthy and, I think, achievable goal in mind. I too would appreciate such a conversation with a Black.

    However, you probably shouldn’t present your conversation mate with the provisos you list, at least not beforehand. I suppose you could have them in your mind as you talk — and then somehow convey to your fellow discussant when one of the topics is off limits. But to bring even a couple of them up beforehand would probably leave the conversation dead in the water.

    That would be a tricky conversation indeed — and full of conversation land mines that would probably explode in your faces.

    Sixty years ago I had such a conversation with a black friend, though neither of us brought up some of the provisos you mention. He and I were both students at Compton Junior (now Community) College. I hope such a conversation is still possible. It’s certainly not possible with a good majority of Blacks.

    I completely agree. And I think that points to exactly the conundrum. I don’t want to have to have a list of pre-conditions,  but I cannot abide by a conversation that takes as a given any of those pre-conditions. I blame the left for essentially having created this unworkable situation. 

    • #11
  12. Bullwinkle Member
    Bullwinkle
    @Bullwinkle

    Chuck (View Comment):

    Were my skin blackish (its not) and were I a part of the Ricochet family, I wonder how even the topic would make me feel? Special? Not part of the family? Uncomfortable? Not good enough? What?

    I completely agree, and I had the same feelings. I dont know how else to get around it. I certainly don’t intend to make anyone uncomfortable. I would much prefer we just talk, as friends. That is part of the point of my post – is that even possible any more. 

    • #12
  13. Bullwinkle Member
    Bullwinkle
    @Bullwinkle

    WillowSpring (View Comment):

    I don’t think we will get very far if we start the conversation with “Lets talk about race” (I know that is a gross simplification). That sets the playing field as one about race rather than individuals.

    Again, I completely agree, and not to sound like a broken record, but that is kind of the point of my post. I wonder if that is possible… And I blame the left and the race hustlers for creating this situation. Sigh. 

    • #13
  14. Bullwinkle Member
    Bullwinkle
    @Bullwinkle

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    I neither Black or Jewish. I must be also out of date. As a businessman I had many Jewish customers who in turn had many Black employees. Neither party at that time was forced into that situation. I felt the Jews were giving the Blacks a hand up and they welcomed it . I know the Farrakhan crowd hated Jews but felt that was on the fringe. I don’t know the whole story but understand the Israelites went to great lengths to rescue Black Ethiopian Jews. I don’t remember my Jewish friends or customers demeaning Blacks. Have things changed that much?

    It is complicated (aren’t most things…). Obviously, there are plenty of great relationships. However, there are also tensions and friction. Unfortunately, its a two way street, and I think the Jewish community has serious work to do – I have heard way too many racist comments from Jewish friends. I try my best to chastise them. Its quite sad honestly. And while Israel went to extraordinary lengths to rescue Ethiopian Jews, its also true that those same Ethiopians experience racism in Israel. Again, sad but true. And on the other side, even besides the black leadership, there is rampant anti semitism amongst the rank and file. Of course both expressions of hatred and mistrust feed on each other. There are areas in New York where African Americans and Jews live side by side – sometimes in great tension, and sometimes in harmony. Both sides have lots of work to do. 

    • #14
  15. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    It is impossible to have an honest conversation about race in this country.

    An honest conversation would start with the observation that, statistically speaking, outcomes for black Americans are worse than outcomes for white Americans, on almost every measurable issue.  Black income is lower, black wealth is lower, black life expectancy is lower, the black illegitimacy rate is higher, the black incarceration rate is higher, the black unemployment rate is higher, black educational attainment is lower.  Black test scores are lower, whether testing IQ or scholastic achievement (though these usually amount to the same thing).

    So the question is why.  There are generally three possibilities:

    1. Blacks may be victims of systematic unfair treatment by others.  This is the “systemic racism” hypothesis.
    2. Distributionally speaking, blacks may have less inherent capacity for success, or greater inherent tendency toward dysfunction.  This is the “genetic differences” hypothesis.
    3. Distributionally speaking, blacks may behave differently than whites.  This is the “cultural” hypothesis.

    If you believe that hypotheses 2 or 3 are true — or may be true — then you are a racist.  Indeed, it is probably racist to even consider these hypotheses as possible explanations.  There is no need to analyze or evaluate any data on these issues.  Any such analyses are white supremacist pseudoscience.  (Even if they show that Orientals and Jews outperform whites, which is a strange result for a cabal of neo-Nazi pseudoscientists to reach.)

    Hypotheses 2 and 3 simply cannot be true, as a matter of ideology and morality.

    This leaves us with hypothesis 1.  QED.  America is systemically racist.

    The same analysis is applied to male/female comparisons.  Thus, America is systemically sexist.

    It is interesting to note that, on issues of both race and sex, the analysis is asymmetric.  If you happened to notice that the two teams playing in the Super Bowl yesterday had an extraordinarily disproportionate number of black men, the explanation is not systemic pro-black racism.  The explanation is some combination of the genetic hypothesis and the cultural hypothesis.

    Similarly, when women receive more college degrees than men, this is not evidence of systemic pro-female sexism.  Rather, this is the natural order of things — except that it is very important to focus on the specific academic fields in which men still predominate, and force equalization in those fields (or more than equalization).

    • #15
  16. Chuck Coolidge
    Chuck
    @Chuckles

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    It is impossible to have an honest conversation about race in this country.

    An honest conversation would start with the observation that, statistically speaking, outcomes for black Americans are worse than outcomes for white Americans, on almost every measurable issue. Black income is lower, black wealth is lower, black life expectancy is lower, the black illegitimacy rate is higher, the black incarceration rate is higher, the black unemployment rate is higher, black educational attainment is lower. Black test scores are lower, whether testing IQ or scholastic achievement (though these usually amount to the same thing).

    So the question is why. There are generally three possibilities:

    1. Blacks may be victims of systematic unfair treatment by others. This is the “systemic racism” hypothesis.
    2. Distributionally speaking, blacks may have less inherent capacity for success, or greater inherent tendency toward dysfunction. This is the “genetic differences” hypothesis.
    3. Distributionally speaking, blacks may behave differently than whites. This is the “cultural” hypothesis.

    If you believe that hypotheses 2 or 3 are true — or may be true — then you are a racist. Indeed, it is probably racist to even consider these hypotheses as possible explanations. There is no need to analyze or evaluate any data on these issues. Any such analyses are white supremacist pseudoscience. (Even if they show that Orientals and Jews outperform whites, which is a strange result for a cabal of neo-Nazi pseudoscientists to reach.)

    Hypotheses 2 and 3 simply cannot be true, as a matter of ideology and morality.

    This leaves us with hypothesis 1. QED. America is systemically racist.

    The same analysis is applied to male/female comparisons. Thus, America is systemically sexist.

    It is interesting to note that, on issues of both race and sex, the analysis is asymmetric. If you happened to notice that the two teams playing in the Super Bowl yesterday had an extraordinarily disproportionate number of black men, the explanation is not systemic pro-black racism. The explanation is some combination of the genetic hypothesis and the cultural hypothesis.

    Similarly, when women receive more college degrees than men, this is not evidence of systemic pro-female sexism. Rather, this is the natural order of things — except that it is very important to focus on the specific academic fields in which men still predominate, and force equalization in those fields (or more than equalization).

    So I’m guessing you fit the goal of the “Great Society”, of the Welfare State, into possibility number three?

    • #16
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    • #17
  18. PHCheese Inactive
    PHCheese
    @PHCheese

    Bullwinkle (View Comment):

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    I neither Black or Jewish. I must be also out of date. As a businessman I had many Jewish customers who in turn had many Black employees. Neither party at that time was forced into that situation. I felt the Jews were giving the Blacks a hand up and they welcomed it . I know the Farrakhan crowd hated Jews but felt that was on the fringe. I don’t know the whole story but understand the Israelites went to great lengths to rescue Black Ethiopian Jews. I don’t remember my Jewish friends or customers demeaning Blacks. Have things changed that much?

    It is complicated (aren’t most things…). Obviously, there are plenty of great relationships. However, there are also tensions and friction. Unfortunately, its a two way street, and I think the Jewish community has serious work to do – I have heard way too many racist comments from Jewish friends. I try my best to chastise them. Its quite sad honestly. And while Israel went to extraordinary lengths to rescue Ethiopian Jews, its also true that those same Ethiopians experience racism in Israel. Again, sad but true. And on the other side, even besides the black leadership, there is rampant anti semitism amongst the rank and file. Of course both expressions of hatred and mistrust feed on each other. There are areas in New York where African Americans and Jews live side by side – sometimes in great tension, and sometimes in harmony. Both sides have lots of work to do.

    Thanks for taking the time to address my question. I guess not being in either community I only touch the surface of the facts. Of course that’s probably true of all of us.

    • #18
  19. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    I think a big part of the problem is that people think they are entitled to control what we think. Instead, I believe the only thing that matters is how I behave, how I treat you.

    That’s the difference between a crime and a thought crime, between rudeness and hate speech.

    • #19
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    • Blacks may be victims of systematic unfair treatment by others. This is the “systemic racism” hypothesis.
    • Distributionally speaking, blacks may have less inherent capacity for success, or greater inherent tendency toward dysfunction. This is the “genetic differences” hypothesis.
    • Distributionally speaking, blacks may behave differently than whites. This is the “cultural” hypothesis.

    You’re missing the actual answer.  Blacks are acculturated differently, to think differently, in school and by society.

    The  ” ‘cultural’ hypothesis” is something quite other than the imposed cultural differences.

    • #20
  21. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Chuck (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    It is impossible to have an honest conversation about race in this country.

    An honest conversation would start with the observation that, statistically speaking, outcomes for black Americans are worse than outcomes for white Americans, on almost every measurable issue. 

    . . .

    So the question is why. There are generally three possibilities:

    1. Blacks may be victims of systematic unfair treatment by others. This is the “systemic racism” hypothesis.
    2. Distributionally speaking, blacks may have less inherent capacity for success, or greater inherent tendency toward dysfunction. This is the “genetic differences” hypothesis.
    3. Distributionally speaking, blacks may behave differently than whites. This is the “cultural” hypothesis.

    . . .

    So I’m guessing you fit the goal of the “Great Society”, of the Welfare State, into possibility number three?

    I’m not completely sure what you mean by this.

    There is a hypothesis that the welfare state policies of the so-called Great Society, by offering money and other benefits to unwed mothers who have children, had two negative effects: (1) it created a disincentive to marry, and (2) it created a disincentive to work.  I find this hypothesis to be reasonable, and well supported by the evidence that I’ve seen.  As black Americans were generally poorer, a greater proportion qualified for welfare, so they would have been disproportionately affected by these mechanisms, if this hypothesis is accurate.

    There is another hypothesis relating to dysgenic pressure.  It is often applied to IQ issues, though it can apply to any trait.  The basic idea is that welfare policies cause higher levels of reproduction among individuals with a less desirable trait — for example, lower IQ or higher propensity to criminality or even crooked teeth — which makes the trait more prevalent in successive generations.  Welfare could also have this effect.

    Figuring out whether these hypotheses are correct, and the extent to which they contribute to current social problems, is quite tricky.  It’s an empirical question.

    One troubling fact has been the persistence of the black-white IQ gap, which appears stable at about 1 standard deviation over the past 60 years or so.  There’s been substantial improvement in the conditions of black Americans over this period, so the lack of change in this area is disappointing.  I say “disappointing” because, if it were up to me, I’d like there to be little or no difference in the IQ distribution of various racial or ethnic groups.  The facts are otherwise, but the cause remains unclear.

    The persistent black-white IQ gap is consistent with the hypothesis that the gap is largely biological (mostly genetic, presumably) in origin.  On the other hand, improvement in some areas among American blacks (perhaps education) may have been offset by declines in other areas (perhaps family stability).  This hypothesis is consistent with a smaller genetic contribution.

    • #21
  22. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    So the question is why. There are generally three possibilities:

    None of them are consistent with observations.

    See my comment up top, #3.

    • #22
  23. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    • Blacks may be victims of systematic unfair treatment by others. This is the “systemic racism” hypothesis.
    • Distributionally speaking, blacks may have less inherent capacity for success, or greater inherent tendency toward dysfunction. This is the “genetic differences” hypothesis.
    • Distributionally speaking, blacks may behave differently than whites. This is the “cultural” hypothesis.

    You’re missing the actual answer. Blacks are acculturated differently, to think differently, in school and by society.

    The ” ‘cultural’ hypothesis” is something quite other than the imposed cultural differences.

    Would you explain this further, please?  I don’t really understand your point — specifically, I can see two possible interpretations, and I’m not sure which one you mean..

    • #23
  24. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Bullwinkle: For all progress we have made on race, I acknowledge we have more work to do. I have heard many African Americans still feel like they don’t belong in this country. That’s horrible, and I truly want to listen and understand.

    I want to comment that I don’t agree with this.

    I don’t doubt that some anti-black racism lingers in this country.  I don’t think that it will ever go away completely.

    I think that there is tremendous anti-white racism, and that accusations of racism have been weaponized, both by individual blacks and by Wokeist whites.  I find this to be a bigger problem than any residual anti-black racism.

    I suppose that I am willing to listen, and then my response will be something like: get a grip.  Focus on the real problems.  Police brutality?  Give me a break.  The prevalence of such incidents is in struck-by-lightning or killed-by-a-bee-sting territory.  We’re talking about maybe 10-15 killings a year of supposedly innocent blacks, most of which are ambiguous or disputed — and which, even if true, amounts to less than one day of black-on-black homicides in this country (which appear to run around 6,500/year, give or take).

    This is a false narrative aimed at one thing.  Black supremacy.  Because “supremacy” isn’t about some belief in the superiority of one race or another.  “Supremacy” is actually about having different rules apply to different groups, in a way that tilts things in favor of one or the other.

    Through around 1965, it was fair to say that the US tilted toward whites.  Since around 1970, we’ve been in a regime of black supremacy.  By this, I mean preferences and quotas in things like employment and education.  It’s bizarre.

    Judge each person according to the content of his character.  I agree with MLK on this point.  He got it from Jesus and St. Paul, by the way.

    • #24
  25. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    So the question is why. There are generally three possibilities:

    None of them are consistent with observations.

    See my comment up top, #3.

    Don, I don’t know what you’re getting at.  All of my hypotheses are consistent with the observations.

    Your comment seems like pure cynicism, of the sort that I expect from Fake John/Jane Galt.  Not very helpful, though not necessarily wrong.

    I was trying to explain why the accusation of systemic racism sticks.  It is one of three plausible explanations for differences in average group outcomes.  Two are ruled out of bounds, leaving only the “systemic racism” hypothesis.

    Your comment #3, to the extent that I follow it, seems to suggest that the cause is terrible Democrat policies in certain cities.  This is plausible, but only as: (1) a strange method of systemic racism, or (2) enablement of dysfunctional black culture.  Thus, I think that your suggestion fits into my three-hypothesis model.

    • #25
  26. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    You’re missing the actual answer. Blacks are acculturated differently, to think differently, in school and by society.

    The ” ‘cultural’ hypothesis” is something quite other than the imposed cultural differences.

    Would you explain this further, please? I don’t really understand your point — specifically, I can see two possible interpretations, and I’m not sure which one you mean..

    Wow.  What are your two interpretations? : No, I think I understand.  (JKing.)

    Let me back up.  First of all I reject — as essentially unworthy of conversation and as unprovable according to modern ethics — any arguments focusing of significant or meaningful genetic distinctions between races.  And for what it’s worth I reject any argument that postulates on any group’s inferiority or lower human worth.  There are clearly “racial” differences but they are minor.  A truism of mine is that the genetic differences between races are nothing compared to genetic differences between sexes.  So, whether that’s true or not, I decline to consider genetics.

    Secondly I reject the term “race” except and unless it includes all the archaic uses of the word: family lineage, family traits, subcultures, cultures or even self-imposed distinctions.  Another truism of mine is that if one were to walk around the world, there would never be a point at which one race stopped and another began.

    And thirdly, and more to the point of Bullwinkle’s post, genetic race, as it is used in English and in America, does not mean ethnicity or culture.

    And fourthly, the great plague of America (steeped and soaked as it is by deliberate untoward influences) is the distinction of race.  This goes back in history to when slavery was legal everywhere in the world as far as I can tell, and when “race” was used as a justification for slavery.  There are many kinds or types of racism, but what’s happening here in America, and what I think the OP was addressing is a particular kind of racism: one that has lingered from the days of slavery, and has been perpetuated largely by government and the legal system, for specific unsavory purposes.

    The Black culture has been manufactured.  We all have heard of Democrat sanctioned racism and misogyny laws and the political race-buying by the Great Society, I’m sure.  Both American whites and American blacks, by mostly legislated means, have had inculcated a Black/White dichotomy in America that is both unique and pernicious: whites now experience white guilt (to some small degree) and “the soft bigotry of low expectation”, and blacks victimization and as well low expectations.

    This is unique in America that Blacks are said to be oppressed and always in need of special treatment, and yet immigrant blacks dream and strive to come here for the multifaceted freedoms and chance to achieve prosperity; and these new-comers don’t feel or experience anti-black prejudice except perhaps from American Blacks.

    (continued next comment)

     

    • #26
  27. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    (continued)

    I lived most of my adult life in a black super-majority city. I lived and worked among Blacks.  Almost exclusively backs.  And although there was to be sure notice of racial differences, by both whites and blacks, these differences were generally individual, experiential and person-specific.  Two and three decades ago, racial tensions and distinctions were waning.  In the 90s it looked as if racism was nearly gone — yes, individually present, but culturally nearly gone.

    This trend, and the social, interpersonal and economic equality that it included, changed quickly and drastically after 2008 with Barack 0bama.  The great racial healer, the great sign of racial healing and health, actually deliberately fostered through word and action racial division and tension.  He did not do this all by himself, but was aided by a ready and waiting academic class.

    I am not one to describe this particularly, but there is a “Plantation culture” being fostered by the left.  Though, now it’s more like a post-Plantation vengeance.

    If you want to speak of racial issues with blacks?  The best advice may be not to speak of it at all, because acknowledging it reinforces it.  That’s not to say that you can’t speak of it, but it can best be done as an outgrowth of an existing established relationship of personal trust, running both ways.

    If you really want to speak about it, of course you can talk to people like Thomas Sowell, Candace Owens and Brandon Tatum.  There are many others, as well.

    I’ll finish with a couple of quotes: For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    And

    #6 — So, instead of a black guy and a white guy ignoring each other, we became two old farts in the parking lot with an interest in the same type car. :)

     

    • #27
  28. namlliT noD Member
    namlliT noD
    @DonTillman

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    namlliT noD (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    So the question is why. There are generally three possibilities:

    None of them are consistent with observations.

    See my comment up top, #3.

    Don, I don’t know what you’re getting at. All of my hypotheses are consistent with the observations.

    For instance, you said “This leaves us with hypothesis 1. QED. America is systemically racist.”

    But can you provide an actual example of Systemic Racism?  Legislation or government structure that is race specific?  Probably not.  There are Affirmative Action programs, but, as Scott Adams has said, “I’m told that those don’t count.”

    Your comment seems like pure cynicism, of the sort that I expect from Fake John/Jane Galt. Not very helpful, though not necessarily wrong.

    Actually, the opposite.  Although I didn’t realize it until later.

    Are black people in the US generally localized to certain areas?  Why yes, they are.  Detroit is about 80% black, Baltimore 64%.  Then it doesn’t make a lot of sense to talk about the entire country in general.  Instead, let’s look at these specific places.  Do these places have a lot of problems with crime, violence, poverty, unemployment, bad schools, and such?  Why, yes they do. 

    What’s going on with that?   Aren’t there federal and state programs that provide money and resources to help?  Yes, there are.  Schools?  Some of these schools have the highest federal funding.  Huh…

    Perhaps crooked local politicians and bureaucrats are working the system, siphoning off the funds, and leaving these places in shambles.  That would be consistent with observations.

    I was trying to explain why the accusation of systemic racism sticks. It is one of three plausible explanations for differences in average group outcomes. Two are ruled out of bounds, leaving only the “systemic racism” hypothesis.

    The only reason that accusations of Systemic Racism stick is because it’s an effective weapon for Democrats to attack Republicans, so they use it consistently, it’s written into the talking points, and repeated incessantly in the media.  And why we’re talking about it.

    And as Democrats have been in charge of most of the bureaucracy (or if you will, the systemic) for so long, they are the ones that are responsible.  This is a good example of “Tactical Projection”, another effective weapon.

    Your comment #3, to the extent that I follow it, seems to suggest that the cause is terrible Democrat policies in certain cities. This is plausible, but only as: (1) a strange method of systemic racism, or (2) enablement of dysfunctional black culture. Thus, I think that your suggestion fits into my three-hypothesis model.

    Nope.

    • #28
  29. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Flicker, thanks for the response.  I think that you are on the side of the radical Left in rejecting the possibility of genetic differences, which it turns out are supported by some very solid science.  You seem to be open to the possibility of cultural differences — but then you blame whites for the dysfunctional culture of American blacks.  That does seem to deny any agency to American blacks.

    Flicker (View Comment):
    First of all I reject — as essentially unworthy of conversation and as unprovable according to modern ethics — any arguments focusing of significant or meaningful genetic distinctions between races.

    You are quite incorrect about this.  I can give you references, but it would probably take weeks of study to understand, and it’s tough material.

    You could start with Rushton and Jensen’s 2005 paper (here).  This one is about 60 pages.

    The next three good sources are books.  The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray; A Troublesome Inheritance by Nicholas Wade; and Human Diversity by Charles Murray.

    There’s a series of papers in Psych, in mid-2019, following up on the Rushton-Jensen paper, available online here.  It includes contributions from other notable researchers in the area, including Richard Lynn, Helmuth Nyborg, James Flynn, and Michael Woodley.

    Nyborg’s article (here) may be particularly instructive, as he effectively rebuts the “race as a social construct” argument.  He also takes to task the dishonest misrepresentations of the field, on which you may well have relied, by academics (and others) including Stephen J. Gould.  The Gould part is particularly scathing (citations omitted):

    A further obstruction to differential behavioral research is the widespread misrepresentation of facts on individual and group differences in intelligence, both in science, in the popular literature, and the media. So widespread and detrimental is this source of distortion that it recently got its own name—the “Gould Effect”. The effect is based on Steven Jay Gould’s still widely held assumption that research on intelligence differences is deeply corrupted by its inherent racist, sexist, and elitist motivation. No intellectual person, perhaps aside from Richard Lewontin, has been more successful than Gould in demonizing differential-psychological and behavior genetics studies of intelligence through dishonest misrepresentation of data and theory.

    James Flynn is something of a dissenter among this group, attributing the differences to culture exclusively.  The more typical view is that group differences are the result of a combination of genetic and cultural factors.  Even Flynn, however (here), concludes “[t]hat the black/white IQ gap is more likely to be environmental, with black American subculture as the culprit.” 

    • #29
  30. Joker Member
    Joker
    @Joker

    It’s not that hard on an individual level. Turns out blacks have a favorite football team, kids who do and say stupid stuff, favorite vacation spot, crazy family, work stories – just like me. Not that hard to build a rapport. This cranks me up almost as much as Rev. Al. We absolutely have more in common than separates us, and on an individual level Americans are getting along fine. The racists and grievance pigs are the outliers that need to reflect on what it takes to get along. The toxic views of both ends of that spectrum do not deserve time, attention or respect.

    All forms of media spit out criticism of white culture, white politics, white music, white dancing, white inborn racism, etc. An honest race conversation would include some of generalized criticism of black culture – and the slightest observation of any antisocial tendency makes you a racist. Discussion over, harm done, not worth it.

    • #30
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.