Jazz Neglected?

 

It began with a reference to a Firing Line episode by Kirkian Wanderer:

...If I’m going to link that, I feel I’m also obligated to post the Firing Line episode on jazz.

It’s equally wonderful, and informative, but takes quite a different tone. That tone being something in the lineage of ‘get off my lawn!’ as Bill Buckley tries to get Billy Taylor to explain that damned rock music to him. Honestly, it’s worth the price of admission just to hear Bill, full idiosyncratic aristo-Midatlantic-southern drawl, say “how about giving us something as Jelly Roll Morton might have.” (14:20)

The referenced 1980 episode is a wonderful exploration of jazz music for the uninitiated by two masters of the form, titled “Why is Jazz Neglected?”:

 

Jazz neglected? In 1980, Joni Mitchell was still fresh into her all-in jazz period, having released an album tribute to Charlie Mingus the year before. Frank Sinatra and such were still popular with the WWII generation, Blues Alley in DC was still a major venue with many jazz artists appearing, Weather Report was recording “Birdland” along with vital original compositions, and Jazz artists were playing many concerts in the major venues around DC. Mose Allison was wonderful, snappy, and delightfully caustic. John Coltrane did astonishing pieces. Dave Brubeck is as fresh today as he was then; try “Take Five.”

Was Jazz as big as Rock in 1980? No. Was it a rich and rewarding field for exploration? Very much so. And as is pointed out in the show, some of those Jazz Festivals saw kids line up three days in advance for tickets like was seen for the big Rock acts of the day. And Gershwin was offered up by 1980 as capital-C Culture on the most prestigious stages. I count most Jazz Rock fusion as Rock, but I expect Jazz to be more improvisational while Fusion is dressed with Jazz stylings yet is a more premeditated performance, usually. On that continuum, popular Jazz is all over the map. And this is hardly an exhaustive list; the joint was jumpin’.

And a lot of films showing on television were very much of the Jazz Age, They were products of the Big Band Era and Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra and Jimmy Dorsey and Louis Armstrong and Judy Garland and Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holliday, all Jazz artists.

I like that the artists on the Firing Line episode, Billy Taylor and Dick Wellstood, responded to the race question by saying that, as the community had developed, it was no longer possible (in 1980) to tell by merely listening what race the contemporary artists were. They would be canceled today for even suggesting that.

And for a surprise parting gift, here is the LoC Jazz Filmography, a slim 2,339 pages of “neglected” jazz and blues film performances published in 2019.

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  1. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Jazz is such an open genre. It includes everything from just west of ragtime to just east of hip hop.

    Rock and Roll is a form of jazz. Country music is a form of jazz.

    But what we often call jazz is usually what we think of when we hear bebop or the like.

    If you were to pay attention to Ken Burns’ “Jazz” documentary, you would think only a few trumpet players truly wear the mantle of jazz musicians, and white people need not apply. He almost never even acknowledges saxophones.

    I’m not much of a slouch in my musical pedigree, I was in my college jazz band. I played second alto sax, which is in honesty the least important instrument in a jazz band.

    I go through periods, as I am now, of trying to listen to jazz and try to appreciate it. I think Charlie Parker is one of the most talented musicians ever, and he can do things on the sax that are unbelievable. But, especially when he teams up with the cacophonic Dizzy Gillespie, The Bird’s music is terribly difficult to listen to and enjoy. If you know what he’s doing, it’s amazing, but honestly, bebop is to music as Jackson Pollock is to art. I suppose people who study art might think Pollock’s work is nice, but it’s not very nice to look at for most of us.

    Coltrane is more melodic than The Bird, but even his music is often very, um, difficult to appreciate.

    I would say the random structure of avant garde free jazz of the 60’s is more like Jackson Pollock. Hard to know if they’re playing something innovative, or the drugs are kicking in, or both. To me Parker was more melodic than Trane and easier to listen to. Coltrane went on some pretty wild tangents. I love both of em.

     

    • #31
  2. Cat III, the One that Sparked This Member
    Cat III, the One that Sparked This
    @CatIII

    thelonious (View Comment):

    When you listen to jazz you gotta listen to the notes they’re not playing.

    Puh, I can do that at home.

    • #32
  3. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    When you listen to jazz you gotta listen to the notes they’re not playing.

    Puh, I can do that at home.

    I appreciate any musician who doesn’t play a B natural on a G augmented7 #4 flat 9 chord.

    • #33
  4. Michael Powell Inactive
    Michael Powell
    @Michael Powell

    This was a really incredible post and there is a lot to work on here.

    I will say that, while jazz was far from over in 1980, it had been reduced. 1960s classics like Miles Davis’ Kind of Blue and Duke Ellington’s Money Jungle changed the tone of jazz from one of loud expression and experimentation to the sort pleasant background music that you hear at Starbucks. That became the norm everywhere – Cameroonian musician Richard Bona or Americans like Dave Douglas or Wynton Marsalis all followed in that vein.

    I did a podcast on my Patreon site about how different society was when jazz was the music. One of the big legends of the Jazz Age, Stan Kenton, was anything but boring and had all of the audacity and aspirations of an orchestra leader. Nevertheless it was not quite edgy and the coming generation of music was, and when that generation came, jazz was reclined to those who wanted to relax.

    Ultimately, rock music, and then later rap music, fit the attitudes of the Baby Boomers and Generation X much better, respectively. Jazz was the sound of a much slower America. Covid 19, the end of the Trump era, and numerous other factors might actually incline American music listeners more toward jazz or something like it (music instrumentation has changed and you can now put together music on a laptop or even a smartphone), as any of the shock that various rock and rap artists provided is no longer shocking and more problematic and cliched. Cancel culture along with streaming music also could incline people more toward instrumental music – I had an Uber driver a few months back who played an instrumental hip-hop channel on Pandora because he found it had less potential to upset or offend riders.

    • #34
  5. Cat III, the One that Sparked This Member
    Cat III, the One that Sparked This
    @CatIII

    Amy Winehouse’s first record, Frank, is very jazzy. I’d say this gets forgotten but that would require people knowing it in the first place. She didn’t get well known outside the UK until her second album, Back to Black, which lost most of the jazz influences for the sounds of 60s girl groups and soul. She did get me to look into classic vocal jazz singers like Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, and Billie Holiday.

    Another modern musician making jazz music is John Zorn who’s of a much more underground tradition than Winehouse. Haven’t kept up with his recent output, but his most famous work with the group Naked City is twisted genius. It’s a gonzo amalgam of jazz and other influences including grindcore of all things. The album included illustrations by famed gore artist Maruo Suehiro and the cover was taken by crime photographer Weegee. Here’s a couple samples:

    This sounds like noise at first, but stick with it:

    One other modern jazz group is Bohren & Der Club of Gore from Germany, and they’re weird, though in the opposite direction of Zorn and Naked City. They play it slow and somber. Evokes the feeling of walking through neon-drenched city streets while rain pours. Here’s one from their most popular album:

    Looking that up, I discovered they released a new record this last year so I have something to look forward to diving into.

    • #35
  6. Michael Powell Inactive
    Michael Powell
    @Michael Powell

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    Amy Winehouse’s first record, Frank, is very jazzy. I’d say this gets forgotten but that would require people knowing it in the first place. She didn’t get well known outside the UK until her second album, Back to Black, which lost most of the jazz influences for the sounds of 60s girl groups and soul. She did get me to look into classic vocal jazz singers like Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, and Billie Holiday.

    Another modern musician making jazz music is John Zorn who’s of a much more underground tradition than Winehouse. Haven’t kept up with his recent output, but his most famous work with the group Naked City is twisted genius. It’s a gonzo amalgam of jazz and other influences including grindcore of all things. The album included illustrations by famed gore artist Maruo Suehiro and the cover was taken by crime photographer Weegee. Here’s a couple samples:

    This sounds like noise at first, but stick with it:

    One other modern jazz group is Bohren & Der Club of Gore from Germany, and they’re weird, though in the opposite direction of Zorn and Naked City. They play it slow and somber. Evokes the feeling of walking through neon-drenched city streets while rain pours. Here’s one from their most popular album:

    Looking that up, I discovered they released a new record this last year so I have something to look forward to diving into.

    I played Bohren & Der Club of Gore when a roommate walked in once and they were totally weirded out by it. :P

     

    • #36
  7. Cat III, the One that Sparked This Member
    Cat III, the One that Sparked This
    @CatIII

    One more thing: jazz has worked its way into unexpected places. Technical death metal, aka tech death, is a subgenre of death metal that originated with bands like Death, Atheist, Suffocation, and Gorguts. One of the primary influences was jazz music (I believe jazz fusion specifically, so another step removed from actual jazz) which is where the technical part comes from. As far as I know, improvisation doesn’t play a big part if any, but they incorporate a lot of the elements of jazz: complex song structures, odd time signatures, and some other stuff my peabrain can’t comprehend. Not really my style; I prefer the grimy and straightforward to the complex and impressive, but some of it is genuinely classic, like this:

    These days, it’s been integrated with the more brutal side of the genre so little resembles the above song. Listening to it, I doubt jazzy would be the first word that comes to mind. It sure is a lot, though, and quite loud:

    • #37
  8. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    If you want to listen to noisy, discordant, Bad ( and with Bad I am being neither hip nor ironic ) Jazz you gotta listen to Jazz on Delmark.   Chicago Avante Garde.   Delmark has great Blues, R & B, and Gospel, but with Jazz they just missed the point.    And I tried to find something good in it, or acquire the taste.

    • #38
  9. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    When you listen to jazz you gotta listen to the notes they’re not playing.

    Puh, I can do that at home.

    I appreciate any musician who doesn’t play a B natural on a G augmented7 #4 flat 9 chord.

    Me too…I guess???

    • #39
  10. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Jazz is such an open genre. It includes everything from just west of ragtime to just east of hip hop.

    Rock and Roll is a form of jazz. Country music is a form of jazz.

    But what we often call jazz is usually what we think of when we hear bebop or the like.

    If you were to pay attention to Ken Burns’ “Jazz” documentary, you would think only a few trumpet players truly wear the mantle of jazz musicians, and white people need not apply. He almost never even acknowledges saxophones.

    I’m not much of a slouch in my musical pedigree, I was in my college jazz band. I played second alto sax, which is in honesty the least important instrument in a jazz band.

    I go through periods, as I am now, of trying to listen to jazz and try to appreciate it. I think Charlie Parker is one of the most talented musicians ever, and he can do things on the sax that are unbelievable. But, especially when he teams up with the cacophonic Dizzy Gillespie, The Bird’s music is terribly difficult to listen to and enjoy. If you know what he’s doing, it’s amazing, but honestly, bebop is to music as Jackson Pollock is to art. I suppose people who study art might think Pollock’s work is nice, but it’s not very nice to look at for most of us.

    Coltrane is more melodic than The Bird, but even his music is often very, um, difficult to appreciate.

    Buckley’s interview is interesting, but Buckley is a classic snob. That’s not a bad thing necessarily, but music must be pleasing to its audience. Some people appreciate different styles of jazz, but most people have moved on to successor styles.

    It’s a shame though, that modern “musicians” rely so heavily and overtly on auto-tune.

    There is a great story that links Charlie, Dizzy and a very young Miles Davis…

    Charlie was recording an album and had hired a very young Miles as trumpet player.   Charlie’s good friend Dizzywas in town and Charlie tapped Dizzy to play piano.   Yes piano.    One tune has a particularly intricate, written (not improved) trumpet piece as an intro.   Miles struggled to get it right.  Take after take was no good.    If only there was another great trumpet player who could be had at a moments notice.    Hmmm?
    So on the album, Dizzy plays piano on everything and 45 seconds of trumpet on one song.

    Koko

    • #40
  11. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Jazz is such an open genre. It includes everything from just west of ragtime to just east of hip hop.

    Rock and Roll is a form of jazz. Country music is a form of jazz.

    But what we often call jazz is usually what we think of when we hear bebop or the like.

    If you were to pay attention to Ken Burns’ “Jazz” documentary, you would think only a few trumpet players truly wear the mantle of jazz musicians, and white people need not apply. He almost never even acknowledges saxophones.

    I’m not much of a slouch in my musical pedigree, I was in my college jazz band. I played second alto sax, which is in honesty the least important instrument in a jazz band.

    I go through periods, as I am now, of trying to listen to jazz and try to appreciate it. I think Charlie Parker is one of the most talented musicians ever, and he can do things on the sax that are unbelievable. But, especially when he teams up with the cacophonic Dizzy Gillespie, The Bird’s music is terribly difficult to listen to and enjoy. If you know what he’s doing, it’s amazing, but honestly, bebop is to music as Jackson Pollock is to art. I suppose people who study art might think Pollock’s work is nice, but it’s not very nice to look at for most of us.

    Coltrane is more melodic than The Bird, but even his music is often very, um, difficult to appreciate.

    Buckley’s interview is interesting, but Buckley is a classic snob. That’s not a bad thing necessarily, but music must be pleasing to its audience. Some people appreciate different styles of jazz, but most people have moved on to successor styles.

    It’s a shame though, that modern “musicians” rely so heavily and overtly on auto-tune.

    There is a great story that links Charlie, Dizzy and a very young Miles Davis…

    Charlie was recording an album and had hired a very young Miles as trumpet player. Charlie’s good friend Dizzywas in town and Charlie tapped Dizzy to play piano. Yes piano. One tune has a particularly intricate, written (not improved) trumpet piece as an intro. Miles struggled to get it right. Take after take was no good. If only there was another great trumpet player who could be had at a moments notice. Hmmm?
    So on the album, Dizzy plays piano on everything and 45 seconds of trumpet on one song.

    Koko

    Funny story, but surely not true.  It’s hard to believe that Miles Davis couldn’t play something right, and it’s hard to believe Dizzy Gillespie could play something right.  Dizzy couldn’t hit the right note if he even bothered to try.  

    • #41
  12. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Jazz is such an open genre. It includes everything from just west of ragtime to just east of hip hop.

    Rock and Roll is a form of jazz. Country music is a form of jazz.

    But what we often call jazz is usually what we think of when we hear bebop or the like.

    If you were to pay attention to Ken Burns’ “Jazz” documentary, you would think only a few trumpet players truly wear the mantle of jazz musicians, and white people need not apply. He almost never even acknowledges saxophones.

    I’m not much of a slouch in my musical pedigree, I was in my college jazz band. I played second alto sax, which is in honesty the least important instrument in a jazz band.

    I go through periods, as I am now, of trying to listen to jazz and try to appreciate it. I think Charlie Parker is one of the most talented musicians ever, and he can do things on the sax that are unbelievable. But, especially when he teams up with the cacophonic Dizzy Gillespie, The Bird’s music is terribly difficult to listen to and enjoy. If you know what he’s doing, it’s amazing, but honestly, bebop is to music as Jackson Pollock is to art. I suppose people who study art might think Pollock’s work is nice, but it’s not very nice to look at for most of us.

    Coltrane is more melodic than The Bird, but even his music is often very, um, difficult to appreciate.

    Buckley’s interview is interesting, but Buckley is a classic snob. That’s not a bad thing necessarily, but music must be pleasing to its audience. Some people appreciate different styles of jazz, but most people have moved on to successor styles.

    It’s a shame though, that modern “musicians” rely so heavily and overtly on auto-tune.

    There is a great story that links Charlie, Dizzy and a very young Miles Davis…

    Charlie was recording an album and had hired a very young Miles as trumpet player. Charlie’s good friend Dizzywas in town and Charlie tapped Dizzy to play piano. Yes piano. One tune has a particularly intricate, written (not improved) trumpet piece as an intro. Miles struggled to get it right. Take after take was no good. If only there was another great trumpet player who could be had at a moments notice. Hmmm?
    So on the album, Dizzy plays piano on everything and 45 seconds of trumpet on one song.

    Koko

    Funny story, but surely not true. It’s hard to believe that Miles Davis couldn’t play something right, and it’s hard to believe Dizzy Gillespie could play something right. Dizzy couldn’t hit the right note if he even bothered to try.

    I know.   But I believe the album credits confirm Dizzy plays on the Koko track

    • #42
  13. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Gillespie did play trumpet on Ko-Ko, and he did so because Miles declined to play.  That’s not necessarily the same as couldn’t play.  Miles (autobiography) has noted the similarity between Ko-Ko and Cherokee, and wasn’t comfortable with Cherokee, so he passed.

    The other tales (unconfirmed AFAIK) are that Bud Powell was a no-show on piano, and that the drum solo was timed to let Dizzy switch instruments.

    • #43
  14. Cat III, the One that Sparked This Member
    Cat III, the One that Sparked This
    @CatIII

    Question for all you jazz cats: What Thelonious Monk and Sun Ra albums would you recommend? I’ve listened to a few recordings on YouTube, but would really like suggestions for their best works and/or the easiest to digest for a newcomer. They both seem like interesting boundary-pushers and I’d like to explore their oeuvre.

    • #44
  15. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    Question for all you jazz cats: What Thelonious Monk and Sun Ra albums would you recommend? I’ve listened to a few recordings on YouTube, but would really like suggestions for their best works and/or the easiest to digest for a newcomer. They both seem like interesting boundary-pushers and I’d like to explore their oeuvre.

    Monk: “Brilliant Corners” fer sure; “Genius of Modern Music”.  “5X5” is a personal favorite that tends to be overlooked.

    Sun Ra: A bit out of my lane, but “We Travel the Spaceways” and “Jazz in Silhouette” are well thought of–not necessarily to exclusion of others.

    Bonus pick based on a guess as to your taste: “Out To Lunch,” Eric Dolphy.

    • #45
  16. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    Question for all you jazz cats: What Thelonious Monk and Sun Ra albums would you recommend? I’ve listened to a few recordings on YouTube, but would really like suggestions for their best works and/or the easiest to digest for a newcomer. They both seem like interesting boundary-pushers and I’d like to explore their oeuvre.

    I’ll have to think a bit on the best Monk albums, but I can give you two of his compositions* that I love. “Caravan” is my absolute favorite. I’m not familiar enough with Sun Ra to make any recommendations.

    *(Caravan is actually a Tizol/Ellington work, but I think Monk’s rendition is the ultimate).

    • #46
  17. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Very appropriate for this post, I was actually introduced to Monk through William F. Buckley. He made a reference to Monk in an article on (writing) style included in one of his compilation books that I read when I was about 12 or 13. I was already in the practice of looking up his allusions, both because I wanted to get all of the jokes/subtleties of his writing and because they were often paths to even more interesting things, and I listened to whichever of Monk’s compositions came up first on YouTube and fell in love. I’m trained as a classical musician, but jazz has always been the only genre that I have an almost equal soft spot for, so it thrilled me to find someone so talented. 

    For the merging of two genius musical talents, “Theolonious Monk with John Coltrane” is a great listen: 

    As an introduction to Monk’s style, or something for fans of Ellington that want a new view on his music, “Theolonious Monk Plays The Music Of Duke Elllington” is fabulous: 

    “Brilliant Corners” is the first of Monk’s albums to include his personal compositions, and the title track alone is worth the price of admission. Nat Hentoff gave it a 5 star review when it came out, and he’s not someone to ignore in the world of jazz. 

    And for a bit of later Monk, “Underground”: 

     

    • #47
  18. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    Question for all you jazz cats: What Thelonious Monk and Sun Ra albums would you recommend? I’ve listened to a few recordings on YouTube, but would really like suggestions for their best works and/or the easiest to digest for a newcomer. They both seem like interesting boundary-pushers and I’d like to explore their oeuvre.

    Monk: “Brilliant Corners” fer sure; “Genius of Modern Music”. “5X5” is a personal favorite that ends to be overlooked.

    Sun Ra: A bit out of my lane, but “We Travel the Spaceways” and “Jazz in Silhouette” are well thought of–not necessarily to exclusion of others.

    Bonus pick based on a guess as to your taste: “Out To Lunch,” Eric Dolphy.

    Eric Dolphy is incredibly underrated. Dude could play all the reeds but was most noted for playing bass clarinet. He could play at an impossibly high range.  He and Coltrane slaughtered it together in the early 60’s. Great 4 cd set of them “Live at the Village Vanguard” recorded in 1961. You can hear both pushing each other to the outer limits of tonality. 

    • #48
  19. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Very appropriate for this post, I was actually introduced to Monk through William F. Buckley. He made a reference to Monk in an article on (writing) style included in one of his compilation books that I read when I was about 12 or 13. I was already in the practice of looking up his allusions, both because I wanted to get all of the jokes/subtleties of his writing and because they were often paths to even more interesting things, and I listened to whichever of Monk’s compositions came up first on YouTube and fell in love. I’m trained as a classical musician, but jazz has always been the only genre that I have an almost equal soft spot for, so it thrilled me to find someone so talented.

    For the merging of two genius musical talents, “Theolonious Monk with John Coltrane” is a great listen:

    As an introduction to Monk’s style, or something for fans of Ellington that want a new view on his music, “Theolonious Monk Plays The Music Of Duke Elllington” is fabulous:

    “Brilliant Corners” is the first of Monk’s albums to include his personal compositions, and the title track alone is worth the price of admission. Nat Hentoff gave it a 5 star review when it came out, and he’s not someone to ignore in the world of jazz.

    And for a bit of later Monk, “Underground”:

     

     A young teenage girl discovers Thelonious Monk thru reading William F. Buckley. I’m sure that happens all the time. Great live album released fairly recently of Monk and Coltrane at Carnegie Hall. Well worth the listen. Sorry I don’t know how to embed. I suck at technology.

    • #49
  20. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Cat III, the One that Sparked … (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    When you listen to jazz you gotta listen to the notes they’re not playing.

    Puh, I can do that at home.

    I appreciate any musician who doesn’t play a B natural on a G augmented7 #4 flat 9 chord.

    This reinforces my theory that one needs to have a musical education and some experience playing music to appreciate jazz.  

    • #50
  21. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    thelonious (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Very appropriate for this post, I was actually introduced to Monk through William F. Buckley. He made a reference to Monk in an article on (writing) style included in one of his compilation books that I read when I was about 12 or 13. I was already in the practice of looking up his allusions, both because I wanted to get all of the jokes/subtleties of his writing and because they were often paths to even more interesting things, and I listened to whichever of Monk’s compositions came up first on YouTube and fell in love. I’m trained as a classical musician, but jazz has always been the only genre that I have an almost equal soft spot for, so it thrilled me to find someone so talented.

    For the merging of two genius musical talents, “Theolonious Monk with John Coltrane” is a great listen:

    As an introduction to Monk’s style, or something for fans of Ellington that want a new view on his music, “Theolonious Monk Plays The Music Of Duke Elllington” is fabulous:

    “Brilliant Corners” is the first of Monk’s albums to include his personal compositions, and the title track alone is worth the price of admission. Nat Hentoff gave it a 5 star review when it came out, and he’s not someone to ignore in the world of jazz.

    And for a bit of later Monk, “Underground”:

     

    A young teenage girl discovers Thelonious Monk thru reading William F. Buckley. I’m sure that happens all the time. Great live album released fairly recently of Monk and Coltrane at Carnegie Hall. Well worth the listen. Sorry I don’t know how to embed. I suck at technology.

    Maybe instead of ‘man bites dog’, ‘conservative intellectual bites teenager’ or something like that. 

    • #51
  22. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    thelonious (View Comment):
    A young teenage girl

    I wonder why you would assume Kirkian Wanderer was a teenaged girl.  Kirkian would seem a more masculine name to me.  It conjures up an image of someone who is on a Trek through the stars.

    • #52
  23. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Skyler (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):
    A young teenage girl

    I wonder why you would assume Kirkian Wanderer was a teenaged girl. Kirkian would seem a more masculine name to me. It conjures up an image of someone who is on a Trek through the stars.

    Wrong Kirk. Russell Kirk is the referent.

    • #53
  24. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Skyler (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):
    A young teenage girl

    I wonder why you would assume Kirkian Wanderer was a teenaged girl. Kirkian would seem a more masculine name to me. It conjures up an image of someone who is on a Trek through the stars.

    I am a girl, although I haven’t been a teenager for two years (thelonious was making reference to the time period of that story, though). And Sisyphus is right about the Kirk in question.

    • #54
  25. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):
    A young teenage girl

    I wonder why you would assume Kirkian Wanderer was a teenaged girl. Kirkian would seem a more masculine name to me. It conjures up an image of someone who is on a Trek through the stars.

    I am a girl, although I haven’t been a teenager for two years (thelonious was making reference to the time period of that story, though). And Sisyphus is right about the Kirk in question.

    You’re certainly wise beyond your years.  I wish you a happy life.   Maybe you can help your peers out of this mess someday.

    • #55
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