A Comment About Mob Violence

 

Let me lay out my assumptions right up front, before making the point I want to make.

  1. The President didn’t incite violence. His comments were within the boundaries of appropriate political discourse, whether or not he was correct in the views he expressed about the election. (In fact, I’m sure he was partially, though not wholly, correct.)
  2. I categorically condemn mob violence, and this instance is no exception: everyone who broke the law should be charged, tried, and, if convicted, punished. Whatever the motives of the lawbreakers (and I don’t know who they are or why they did what they did), I reject any claim they might have to legitimacy in their actions. Lock them up.

There. I hope that’s sufficiently clear. Now here’s the point of this post.

For months, businesses have been destroyed by lawless mobs. Billions of dollars of damage have been done to the private property of American citizens as shops were burned, windows smashed, stores looted. Through it all, the President called for a restoration of law and order, and offered federal support in that effort. In each instance he was rebuffed.

Because the destruction of private property and livelihoods doesn’t matter to folks on the left.

The Capitol break-in didn’t endanger anyone’s livelihood: no one will go out of business because of it, no Senator or Congressman will miss a paycheck or lose his life’s savings because thugs broke in to the building and damaged the nation’s property. Democracy, the Constitution, and the nation were not at risk.

The optics were terrible. But the optics were also terrible when Mainstreet USA was burning; the difference is that we didn’t see that, because the left didn’t care, and so didn’t want us to care either.

By all means prosecute the thugs who broke the law in D.C. this week, and good riddance. But remember that, when it came to demanding justice for regular American citizens faced with the loss of their jobs, businesses, incomes, and savings in the hundreds of Antifa and BLM riots this past year, it was the President who was calling for an end to the violence and the protection of regular American citizens. And the left fought that at every turn, choosing to side with lawlessness and the mob.

So to anyone who couldn’t be bothered to stand up for regular American citizens all summer long — and that’s essentially everyone in mainstream news and every Democratic politician at the state and federal level: go back and report on the tragedy of all those shuttered businesses and destroyed lives before expressing your faux outrage over this most recent event. And explain to me why all those people didn’t matter while they watched their hopes and futures burn.

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  1. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Of course he incited the protest- that isn’t in doubt- he called on his supporters to rally. The rioters bear legal responsibility for their actions- but political leaders have to keep in mind that inflammatory rhetoric can have inciting effects on a portion of the population.

    I call hogwash.

    The issue in dispute, widespread electoral fraud, is of great import. The last possible moment to secure a legal intervention was Wednesday. People gathered to express their opinion — to petition the government for the redress of grievances (to coin a phrase). Some people behaved badly and should be punished. But your formulation would ascribe to the organizers of legitimate and peaceful political events responsibility for the bad behavior of others, and essentially guarantee that the right to assemble would be restricted only to situations in which the stakes and passions are low.

    Nonsense. The people can assemble and make impassioned speeches even when the stakes are high. The President did not call for lawlessness, and has no responsibility for the lawlessness of the small minority who behaved badly.

    • #61
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I have been a supporter of Donald Trump for four years, but I have to be objective. There is no question that the conspiracy theories he has nurtured about the election these last four weeks and his rhetoric are responsible for what happened.

    Yes, there is a question. There’s a serious question. People are responsible for their own actions. To hold Trump “responsible” is a violation of a very basic tenet.

    I’m not talking about any legal responsibility. I’m referring to legacy, and frankly, disgrace. He disgraced his office.

    I’m not talking law either. You’re perfectly fine to have your views as to his post-election conduct. I’m far from overjoyed with it myself.

    But assigning the actions of others with their own free wills to someone else requires a very high stand of proof. Should we congratulate him on the conduct of a far larger group of people who peacefully protested? Or should we recognize that there are miscreants who behaviors cannot be accounted for because it is what they chose to do.

     

    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement. As you can see his cabinet is abandoning him over it. Pence has not had a public statement defending his boss. In fact I don’t see a single Republican defending Trump. Not one. If Trump did not have a week or so left in office, I would agree that this is an impeachable offense. Serving as president is a sacred honor of which he disgraced. 

    • #62
  3. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…

    Henry Racette: The Capitol break-in didn’t endanger anyone’s livelihood: no one will go out of business because of it, no Senator or Congressman will miss a paycheck or lose his life’s savings because thugs broke in to the building and damaged the nation’s property. Democracy, the Constitution, and the nation were not at risk.

    I disagree with this.

    The lives of our Senators and Representatives and Vice President were threatened by this mob. This was an occupied building.

    Jerry, that might be true. I’d have to know more about what actually happened before I accept it as accurate. The rest of your post is a lot of unsourced I-heard-this and I-heard-that. Some of it is probably true. I’m going to wait to hear.

    But I hope you understand the point I’m trying to make: this was an awful moment, symbolically, but not on a par with the chaos that has reined around the country in terms of its actual impact. Those who are treating this like a turning point for the nation are misunderstanding, or simply grandstanding.

    Hank, I agree that it’s early, and the events are not entirely clear. Here is a good press conference by the DC police chief, detailing some of the events, including discussion of several firearms violations and the bombs found at the DNC and RNC.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a reliable news outlet that would simply report the facts?

    I didn’t watch. Did he mention how CDC /Capitol police were opening doors and inviting protestors in ?

    https://twitter.com/christina_bobb/status/1347596278583197698

     

    • #63
  4. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a reliable news outlet that would simply report the facts?

    Yes. And I feel a twinge of guilt when I realize that I’m specifically avoiding reading news about the incident right now. I don’t want to be willfully ignorant. But I have so little trust in early reporting, and am so confident that things will be stated as fact that later prove to be mistaken, that I’ve resolved to wait a few days and let the fog clear. By then, I hope that contemporaneous accounts, on-the-scene video, etc., will fill in the picture more accurately, and we’ll have a better chance of understanding what happened.

    Having said that, I can’t imagine any plausible way in which this could have escalated out of control and become a national crisis, given what I’ve read so far and given that law enforcement was allowed to engage, rather than to stand down.

    I am waiting  for Michael Yon to complete his report.  He, I believe, is trustworthy. 

    • #64
  5. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    You said:

    “The Capitol break-in didn’t endanger anyone’s livelihood: no one will go out of business because of it, no Senator or Congressman will miss a paycheck or lose his life’s savings because thugs broke in to the building and damaged the nation’s property. Democracy, the Constitution, and the nation were not at risk.”

    I profoundly disagree. I have walked the hallowed halls of the Capitol. This is the symbol of a free people. The constitution even has a provision that no Member of Congress can be detained when they are en route to the Capitol. The offense here is grave. Members of Congress were trapped in the House Galleries. This is an absolute outrage. This was an overt attempt to disrupt Congress during the counting of the Electoral College votes.

    And you’re wrong. “Absolute outrage” doesn’t translate to a threat to democracy. At no point was there any chance that the Constitution, the government, or American democracy would be endangered.

    It was offensive. Yes. But you’re being as wildly hyperbolic as our President, and no more accurate.

    They tried to literally stop the count of the electoral college. They weren’t meekly sitting in the galleries, they were trying to shut the count down, and they delayed the count for hours. This was a desecration of a sacred space. I hope that most of the mob are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. and I am glad that many of them have been fired from their jobs after posting selfies of themselves in the citadel of our nation.

    OMG!  Trump might even have revealed the vote fraud !  Then what would we NTs do ?

    • #65
  6. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Manny (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I have been a supporter of Donald Trump for four years, but I have to be objective. There is no question that the conspiracy theories he has nurtured about the election these last four weeks and his rhetoric are responsible for what happened.

    Yes, there is a question. There’s a serious question. People are responsible for their own actions. To hold Trump “responsible” is a violation of a very basic tenet.

    I’m not talking about any legal responsibility. I’m referring to legacy, and frankly, disgrace. He disgraced his office.

    I’m not talking law either. You’re perfectly fine to have your views as to his post-election conduct. I’m far from overjoyed with it myself.

    But assigning the actions of others with their own free wills to someone else requires a very high stand of proof. Should we congratulate him on the conduct of a far larger group of people who peacefully protested? Or should we recognize that there are miscreants who behaviors cannot be accounted for because it is what they chose to do.

     

    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement. As you can see his cabinet is abandoning him over it. Pence has not had a public statement defending his boss. In fact I don’t see a single Republican defending Trump. Not one. If Trump did not have a week or so left in office, I would agree that this is an impeachable offense. Serving as president is a sacred honor of which he disgraced.

    I know you to be a thoughtful person, so I doubt that I can persuade any more.  You’re clinging to words like “incitement” with no specifics showing he called for any violence.  You skipped by my question about why a lot of people were not “incited” while a small percentage were.  I choose not to cast my lot with politicians who will head for the exits at the first sign of trouble.

    • #66
  7. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    No my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, this damage is limited to Donald Trump. No one else contributed to the incitement. It was Trump’s personality that drove this. It was Trump’s language. A month after he’s out of Washington, I think Republicans can distant themselves from him. 

    • #67
  8. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a reliable news outlet that would simply report the facts?

    Yes. And I feel a twinge of guilt when I realize that I’m specifically avoiding reading news about the incident right now. I don’t want to be willfully ignorant. But I have so little trust in early reporting, and am so confident that things will be stated as fact that later prove to be mistaken, that I’ve resolved to wait a few days and let the fog clear. By then, I hope that contemporaneous accounts, on-the-scene video, etc., will fill in the picture more accurately, and we’ll have a better chance of understanding what happened.

    Having said that, I can’t imagine any plausible way in which this could have escalated out of control and become a national crisis, given what I’ve read so far and given that law enforcement was allowed to engage, rather than to stand down.

    I am waiting for Michael Yon to complete his report. He, I believe, is trustworthy.

    Years ago, before Mr. Yon was justifiably famous, I had a brief by pleasant email exchange with him while he was hunkered down somewhere in the Middle East. I think he’s a responsible reporter, though I have a vague memory of disagreeing with him about something a few years ago. I’ll look forward to his report.

    • #68
  9. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Manny (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    No my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, this damage is limited to Donald Trump. No one else contributed to the incitement. It was Trump’s personality that drove this. It was Trump’s language. A month after he’s out of Washington, I think Republicans can distant themselves from him.

    Your lips to God’s ears…..

    • #69
  10. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    I would like to know if any of the mob who entered the Capitol were armed and, if so, how.

    Lock them all up anyway. But it seems like a question worth having answered.

    Right. Will anyone get the straight dope? Will anyone try to get ID’s on those arrested? Will anyone figure out what the deceased woman was up to? This stuff is incredibly important.

    I trust The Federalist to have the will and resources, so I hope they’re up to it.

     

    I assume the Antifa cadre will NOT be arrested, or if somehow they are, Kamala Harris will again contribute to bail.

    • #70
  11. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a reliable news outlet that would simply report the facts?

    Yes. And I feel a twinge of guilt when I realize that I’m specifically avoiding reading news about the incident right now. I don’t want to be willfully ignorant. But I have so little trust in early reporting, and am so confident that things will be stated as fact that later prove to be mistaken, that I’ve resolved to wait a few days and let the fog clear. By then, I hope that contemporaneous accounts, on-the-scene video, etc., will fill in the picture more accurately, and we’ll have a better chance of understanding what happened.

    Having said that, I can’t imagine any plausible way in which this could have escalated out of control and become a national crisis, given what I’ve read so far and given that law enforcement was allowed to engage, rather than to stand down.

    I am waiting for Michael Yon to complete his report. He, I believe, is trustworthy.

    Years ago, before Mr. Yon was justifiably famous, I had a brief by pleasant email exchange with him while he was hunkered down somewhere in the Middle East. I think he’s a responsible reporter, though I have a vague memory of disagreeing with him about something a few years ago. I’ll look forward to his report.

    No doubt it was in regards to the NT tendencies of the cannibal he was hunting.

    • #71
  12. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Manny (View Comment):

    I have been a supporter of Donald Trump for four years, but I have to be objective. There is no question that the conspiracy theories he has nurtured about the election these last four weeks and his rhetoric are responsible for what happened.

    By “conspiracy theories” I assume you mean vote fraud.  I guess that make me a conspiracy theorist.  How are you on the Russia  Hoax?

    • #72
  13. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I have been a supporter of Donald Trump for four years, but I have to be objective. There is no question that the conspiracy theories he has nurtured about the election these last four weeks and his rhetoric are responsible for what happened.

    Yes, there is a question. There’s a serious question. People are responsible for their own actions. To hold Trump “responsible” is a violation of a very basic tenet.

    I’m not talking about any legal responsibility. I’m referring to legacy, and frankly, disgrace. He disgraced his office.

    The opposition spied on the candidate, corrupted the FBI and intelligence agencies, abused the FISA court, colluded with the press to fabricate every imaginable slander about the President, and then tried to impeach him for a phone call. We put up with utter nonsense for four years.

    Now he speaks like the blustery, intemperate man we’ve all known he is. I just don’t care. I liked the way he governed, and I won’t pretend that I’m so offended by his deficiencies of personal conduct to condemn him for it. I wish to heaven he’d won, and am thankful that we had him as long as we did.

    Well I have said both yesterday and today I have no regrets for voting for him twice and supporting him for four years. I am not a NeverTrumper. It’s sometimes tough to be objective when going against the choir but I feel I have to on this. I laid out the case in my first comment here. I think there are direct links from his language, perhaps unintentional but still links, to what happened. He was the leader and he should have known better. Leaders have to take responsibility. As to your first paragraph in the reply, those are mitigating circumstances that could offset how to go forward, but they have nothing to do with his culpability to the incitement. 

    • #73
  14. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Of course he incited the protest- that isn’t in doubt- he called on his supporters to rally. The rioters bear legal responsibility for their actions- but political leaders have to keep in mind that inflammatory rhetoric can have inciting effects on a portion of the population.

    I call hogwash.

    The issue in dispute, widespread electoral fraud, is of great import. The last possible moment to secure a legal intervention was Wednesday. People gathered to express their opinion — to petition the government for the redress of grievances (to coin a phrase). Some people behaved badly and should be punished. But your formulation would ascribe to the organizers of legitimate and peaceful political events responsibility for the bad behavior of others, and essentially guarantee that the right to assemble would be restricted only to situations in which the stakes and passions are low.

    Nonsense. The people can assemble and make impassioned speeches even when the stakes are high. The President did not call for lawlessness, and has no responsibility for the lawlessness of the small minority who behaved badly.

    There was NO chance of legal intervention at that point- there was ZERO chance the vote would not be certified and if there was it would effectively end the Constitution. Trump’s tweets for Pence to do so we’re the straw that broke the camel’s back as far as his legitimacy. He needed to have rock solid proof of fraud and he never produced it. Not allegations, not statistical analysis (figure lie and liars figure) but incontrovertible evidence of 45,000 fraudulent voted appropriately spread in Az, Wi, and Ga. And that he never produced- I don’t like he outcome and I don’t like all the irregularities but w/o the aforementioned proof he was SOL. I don’t trust a Stacey Abrams as far as I could throw her ( and she is at least 200 lbs) but that isn’t proof.

    • #74
  15. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    I hope you understand the point I’m trying to make: this was an awful moment, symbolically, but not on a par with the chaos that has reined around the country in terms of its actual impact. Those who are treating this like a turning point for the nation are misunderstanding, or simply grandstanding.

    Here’s the biggest problem: it’s grandstanding with effect.

    It has emboldened Democrats to talk about impeaching Trump though he has already conceded the election and remains in office for mere days. Nancy Pelosi had the audacity to demand the nuclear football be taken from him, as if 4 years of extraordinary peace (in the Middle East and no new wars or “police actions”) leaves any reasonable doubt that Trump is not a warmongering madman.

    It has emboldened the left to silence not only the President on social media but a variety of conservative journalists and commentators. Glenn Beck reports (on YouTube) that a Blaze TV journalist has been removed from social media (his personal Facebook account — not used for marketing) for filming the Capitol break-in… despite having condemned that break-in from the beginning. CNN is interviewing the young journalist’s associates in apparent preparation for a hit-piece.

    The incident itself was significant, but not half so significant as the immense number of malicious riots applauded and guarded by statist media.

    The diabolical use of that incident might dwarf the use of worse events. The left are always weaving false narratives. This one is bolder than most. Democrats claim it was an attempted coup so that they can justify extraordinary measures to eliminate “insurgents” who are in reality their peaceful opposition. Their actions are already outrageous. Their boldness could quickly accelerate.

    Are you surprised at this ?  Getting Trump out of office was the sole reason for the fraud and other risky actions.  If we had a functional media this would have been very dangerous but the Media is an arm of the DNC..  The Capitol riot, which began DURING Trump’s speech not after, was an operation conducted by the same people who funded the vote fraud.  There are more eyewitness accounts coming out but they will get the same treatment the vote fraud eyewitness accounts got.

    • #75
  16. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have a follow-up about the people who “stormed” the Capitol.

    According to Susan Ferrechio at the Examining Politics podcast (on Ricochet, here), there were a number of protestors who were allowed into the Capitol by the police/security folks, who wandered around peacefully, and left when they were asked. There were other rioters who broke in, apparently from another direction, and did their rampaging.

    This modifies my prior opinion. No one should be charged with any crime if they were peacefully permitted to enter the Capitol, and promptly left when asked.

    This might make proof more difficult, because if Ferrechio’s report is correct, mere presence in the building will not be sufficient to prove a criminal trespass.

    FYI, Ferrechio is identified as Senior Washington Correspondent for the Washington Examiner, and she reports as an eyewitness.

    The eyewitness account I heard from a caller to Sean Hannity said the Senate side was peaceful with no rioting. All the disturbance was on the House side and led by a small cadre.

    • #76
  17. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    1) At best it’s an “own goal” but it is at least cover for the left to avoid responsibility for the Antifa/BLM riots. So now the Dems pay no price for excusing/supporting political violence. We already see Kamala & Ol’ Jo using the riot, claiming that BLM would have been treated more severely- thereby protecting, inflaming, & energizing their left wing.

    Regarding “own goal,” I don’t know who broke into the Capitol, nor what they hoped to achieve. I will be surprised if we don’t discover that it’s a hodgepodge of unstable people of widely varied ideologies. But let’s wait and see.

    2) Trump bears some measure of responsibility- not in a legal sense, but morally b/c he incited the protest. Such protests always have the real risk of violence b/c we always have a subset of the population that yearns for an excuse to commit violence. Such people will seek any excuse to riot- they do not care about “the cause”. To call for such protests on the day of certification when you had exactly ZERO chance of prevailing is dangerous & unwarranted.

    “Incited the protest” is a loaded phrase. Yes, every large gathering carries with it some risk, in that some of the people who gather may be irresponsible. But to argue that that makes one who calls for a large gathering somehow responsible for the misbehavior of a small minority of the people assembled doesn’t make sense.

    3) Now for years the left and the media (but I repeat myself) will always use this event to besmirch the right & justify ANY left wing violence.

    I’ll be surprised if that’s true. The public memory isn’t great — and talking about riots in 2020/2021 isn’t ultimately a winning strategy for the left, in my opinion.

     

    Of course he incited the protest- that isn’t in doubt- he called on his supporters to rally. The rioters bear legal responsibility for their actions- but political leaders have to keep in mind that inflammatory rhetoric can have inciting effects on a portion of the population. That isn’t a legal position- the rioters are still fully culpable- but we can’t excuse/overlook irresponsible rhetoric. The left was certainly guilty of it during the summer BLM/Antifa “protests” (ie riots) and Trump’s tweets have been over the top. The wave of crime and murders that hit many cities over the last 9 months has been greatly exacerbated by irresponsible rhetoric by many Democrats- and a similar situation exists in regard to the protest in DC this week. We can’t hold them legally responsible but we should hold them politically accountable.

    Another NT rant.

    • #77
  18. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Manny (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I have been a supporter of Donald Trump for four years, but I have to be objective. There is no question that the conspiracy theories he has nurtured about the election these last four weeks and his rhetoric are responsible for what happened.

    Yes, there is a question. There’s a serious question. People are responsible for their own actions. To hold Trump “responsible” is a violation of a very basic tenet.

    I’m not talking about any legal responsibility. I’m referring to legacy, and frankly, disgrace. He disgraced his office.

    The opposition spied on the candidate, corrupted the FBI and intelligence agencies, abused the FISA court, colluded with the press to fabricate every imaginable slander about the President, and then tried to impeach him for a phone call. We put up with utter nonsense for four years.

    Now he speaks like the blustery, intemperate man we’ve all known he is. I just don’t care. I liked the way he governed, and I won’t pretend that I’m so offended by his deficiencies of personal conduct to condemn him for it. I wish to heaven he’d won, and am thankful that we had him as long as we did.

    Well I have said both yesterday and today I have no regrets for voting for him twice and supporting him for four years. I am not a NeverTrumper. It’s sometimes tough to be objective when going against the choir but I feel I have to on this. I laid out the case in my first comment here. I think there are direct links from his language, perhaps unintentional but still links, to what happened. He was the leader and he should have known better. Leaders have to take responsibility. As to your first paragraph in the reply, those are mitigating circumstances that could offset how to go forward, but they have nothing to do with his culpability to the incitement.

    Manny, I’d like to look more closely at our use of the word “incitement.”

    Do you mean that he actually “incited” people to violence? Or do you mean that he “incited” people to passion, excitement, strong feelings, etc., as one does at a political rally?

    We have to be free to express strong feelings, and to encourage those feelings in others, without being responsible, legally or morally, for the few who will behave badly when so motivated. We have to recognize a difference between rallying people to your side and telling people to commit acts of violence. Otherwise, we are sanctioning the the left’s narrative that words are violence, and therefore words may be suppressed as if they were violence.

    I reject that. Show me where the President plausibly called people to act violently, and I’ll agree that he “incited” violence. Otherwise, I disagree.

    • #78
  19. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    MiMac (View Comment):
    MiMac

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Of course he incited the protest- that isn’t in doubt- he called on his supporters to rally. The rioters bear legal responsibility for their actions- but political leaders have to keep in mind that inflammatory rhetoric can have inciting effects on a portion of the population.

    I call hogwash.

    The issue in dispute, widespread electoral fraud, is of great import. The last possible moment to secure a legal intervention was Wednesday. People gathered to express their opinion — to petition the government for the redress of grievances (to coin a phrase). Some people behaved badly and should be punished. But your formulation would ascribe to the organizers of legitimate and peaceful political events responsibility for the bad behavior of others, and essentially guarantee that the right to assemble would be restricted only to situations in which the stakes and passions are low.

    Nonsense. The people can assemble and make impassioned speeches even when the stakes are high. The President did not call for lawlessness, and has no responsibility for the lawlessness of the small minority who behaved badly.

    There was NO chance of legal intervention at that point- there was ZERO chance the vote would not be certified and if there was it would effectively end the Constitution.

    I agree that it was improbable. I don’t think it’s correct that Congress lacked the authority to refuse to certify the votes. The question isn’t whether or not it was plausible that Congress would choose to do that, but rather whether or not the President, who is no Constitutional scholar, thought it might be plausible.

    And no, I don’t think it would have “ended the Constitution” if they had done so, though it would have been a profoundly poor choice. Your comment, however, is consistent with the degree of hyperbole being bandied about concerning this event.

    • #79
  20. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement. As you can see his cabinet is abandoning him over it. Pence has not had a public statement defending his boss. In fact I don’t see a single Republican defending Trump. Not one. If Trump did not have a week or so left in office, I would agree that this is an impeachable offense. Serving as president is a sacred honor of which he disgraced.

    I know you to be a thoughtful person, so I doubt that I can persuade any more. You’re clinging to words like “incitement” with no specifics showing he called for any violence. You skipped by my question about why a lot of people were not “incited” while a small percentage were. I choose not to cast my lot with politicians who will head for the exits at the first sign of trouble.

    First thank you for your kind comment on me. I do regret being on this side of the argument. Gary Robbins can attest that I have been fighting him in support of Trump fir a number of years now. I am not a NeverTrumper. In fact I have been a fairly vociferous anti NeverTrumper.

    Look at my first comment (#41). I piece together how Trump’s language can lead one to conclude that they were supposed to physically stop the election confirmation. Whether it was only a small section of the mob that pieced it together and acted is irrelevant. Some did and took him up on it. Perhaps the rest didn’t piece it together or did but didn’t act. Thank God. I wish this didn’t happen but it did. Trump has always been a loose cannon. It came back to bite him here. He really is a tragic figure.

    • #80
  21. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Manny (View Comment):
    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement.

    1. I agree that Trump is, often, a poor leader.
    2. If he is not responsible for the criminal actions, then it follows that he is not responsible for “inciting” criminal actions — because that would make him the cause of, and hence responsible for, criminal actions.

      So what, exactly, did he “incite?”

    • #81
  22. Z in MT Member
    Z in MT
    @ZinMT

    Manny (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    No my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, this damage is limited to Donald Trump. No one else contributed to the incitement. It was Trump’s personality that drove this. It was Trump’s language. A month after he’s out of Washington, I think Republicans can distant themselves from him.

    I think Trump is going to be exiled from the party, and from what I am seeing about 50% of the Republicans are going to follow Trump out of the party forming a new one. This will split the vote allowing Democrats to achieve large majorities and eliminating any chance of winning the presidency.

    • #82
  23. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    1) At best it’s an “own goal” but it is at least cover for the left to avoid responsibility for the Antifa/BLM riots. So now the Dems pay no price for excusing/supporting political violence. We already see Kamala & Ol’ Jo using the riot, claiming that BLM would have been treated more severely- thereby protecting, inflaming, & energizing their left wing.

    Regarding “own goal,” I don’t know who broke into the Capitol, nor what they hoped to achieve. I will be surprised if we don’t discover that it’s a hodgepodge of unstable people of widely varied ideologies. But let’s wait and see.

    2) Trump bears some measure of responsibility- not in a legal sense, but morally b/c he incited the protest. Such protests always have the real risk of violence b/c we always have a subset of the population that yearns for an excuse to commit violence. Such people will seek any excuse to riot- they do not care about “the cause”. To call for such protests on the day of certification when you had exactly ZERO chance of prevailing is dangerous & unwarranted.

    “Incited the protest” is a loaded phrase. Yes, every large gathering carries with it some risk, in that some of the people who gather may be irresponsible. But to argue that that makes one who calls for a large gathering somehow responsible for the misbehavior of a small minority of the people assembled doesn’t make sense.

    3) Now for years the left and the media (but I repeat myself) will always use this event to besmirch the right & justify ANY left wing violence.

    I’ll be surprised if that’s true. The public memory isn’t great — and talking about riots in 2020/2021 isn’t ultimately a winning strategy for the left, in my opinion.

     

    Of course he incited the protest- that isn’t in doubt- he called on his supporters to rally. The rioters bear legal responsibility for their actions- but political leaders have to keep in mind that inflammatory rhetoric can have inciting effects on a portion of the population. That isn’t a legal position- the rioters are still fully culpable- but we can’t excuse/overlook irresponsible rhetoric. The left was certainly guilty of it during the summer BLM/Antifa “protests” (ie riots) and Trump’s tweets have been over the top. The wave of crime and murders that hit many cities over the last 9 months has been greatly exacerbated by irresponsible rhetoric by many Democrats- and a similar situation exists in regard to the protest in DC this week. We can’t hold them legally responsible but we should hold them politically accountable.

    Another NT rant.

    Another attempt at an ad hominem…..don’t you have any other tricks up your sleeve

    • #83
  24. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement.

    1. I agree that Trump is, often, a poor leader.
    2. If he is not responsible for the criminal actions, then it follows that he is not responsible for “inciting” criminal actions — because that would make him the cause of, and hence responsible for, criminal actions.

      So what, exactly, did he “incite?”

    That is why I said he incited the PROTEST- which he clearly did- not the riot.

    • #84
  25. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    No my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, this damage is limited to Donald Trump. No one else contributed to the incitement. It was Trump’s personality that drove this. It was Trump’s language. A month after he’s out of Washington, I think Republicans can distant themselves from him.

    I think Trump is going to be exiled from the party, and from what I am seeing about 50% of the Republicans are going to follow Trump out of the party forming a new one. This will split the vote allowing Democrats to achieve large majorities and eliminating any chance of winning the presidency.

    I agree that it would likely be very hurtful, and possibly fatal for the near future, for the Republican party to deal harshly with President Trump. I hope the party does not make that mistake. (And I do think it would be a mistake.)

    • #85
  26. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    Leadership requires responsibility of one rhetoric and manner. Trump is not responsible for the mob’s criminal actions but he is responsible for incitement.

    1. I agree that Trump is, often, a poor leader.
    2. If he is not responsible for the criminal actions, then it follows that he is not responsible for “inciting” criminal actions — because that would make him the cause of, and hence responsible for, criminal actions.

      So what, exactly, did he “incite?”

    That is why I said he incited the PROTEST- which he clearly did- not the riot.

    But the protest, absent the riot, was simply a peaceful political gathering.

    So you’re saying that he incited a peaceful political gathering. Okay. I’m good with that.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that he is not the first politician to incite a peaceful political gathering, and may not be the last.

    • #86
  27. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    Team Red of the Republican Party can survive and win if Team Orange is firmly rejected, just as Team Reagan won in 1980 only 6 years after Team Nixon was firmly rejected in 1974.

    • #87
  28. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Z in MT (View Comment):

    For four years the NT’s said that Donald Trump was going to destroy the Conservative / Republic party. For four years they were dead wrong – until Wednesday.

    Because of what happened Wednesday, the Democrats are going have a dominant majority for a generation. And I doubt the Republican party will survive through the 2022 elections.

    Team Red of the Republican Party can survive and win if Team Orange is firmly rejected, just as Team Reagan won in 1980 only 6 years after Team Nixon was firmly rejected in 1974.

    It’s impossible to predict the future — impossible both for you and for me — but my own suspicion is that we will lose millions of staunch Trump supporters if the party deals harshly with Trump. I am a Republican, and I wanted anyone but Trump in 2016, but even I will be disgusted with my party if it does not treat the departing President with respect.

    You speak with confidence that is unwarranted. We now have the White House and both houses of Congress in Democratic party control, a potentially extraordinarily dangerous situation. We don’t know what will happen, but it ranges from “not much,” if Democrats are stymied by their own party, to “pretty much catastrophic” if they manage to fundamentally shift the constitution of the courts and the Senate through extraordinary actions. That’s a very high risk situation for us to be in.

    Prudence would suggest that we do our best not to risk a schism within our own party that will leave us crippled.

    More than 90% of Republicans voted for Trump in November. Common sense should tell us to move cautiously, and not let our personal loathing of a President millions actually like quite a lot prompt us to do something self-destructive and foolish.

    • #88
  29. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    I suspect most Republicans in 2024 will treat Trump like the Democrats treated Dukakis in 1988- they will say a little. Not only b/c of the last week but also b/c he will not really be an issue (Biden/Harris will supply those) and no one wants to inflame feelings. But if it ends up a two way race in the primary with Cruz vs almost anyone else it could become an issue.

    • #89
  30. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    MiMac (View Comment):

    I suspect most Republicans in 2024 will treat Trump like the Democrats treated Dukakis in 1988- they will say a little. Not only b/c of the last week but also b/c he will not really be an issue (Biden/Harris will supply those) and no one wants to inflame feelings. But if it ends up a two way race in the primary with Cruz vs almost anyone else it could become an issue.

    I think you’re mistaken — Trump is no Dukakis — but we’ll know soon enough.

    • #90
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